Cold Steeping Dark Grains

Hey everyone,

I wanted to make a Cascadian Dark Ale, and Deschutes Hop In The Dark is probably the best commercial example of the style I've tasted. In doing some research, I found that Deschutes cold-steeps the dark grains at about 55* and adds the liquid to the pale mash in order to get the color, but not as much of the astringent flavor of the grains. Has anyone ever done this? How long should I steep? Do I add the dark liquid to the mash after first runnings and use that as sparge water? Any help you guys can provide is appreciated. Here is the link to the story of where I got this info in case you were curious. http://www.portlandbeer.org/blog/2010/06/04/hop-in-the-dark-the-challenge/

Yep, cold steeping is not terribly common, but it has been talked about. I think it goes back to at least the heyday of HBD.org. More recently, Gordon Strong talks about it in his book (he suggests 24 hours), as has been mentioned in another thread somewhere around here. The steep will take some more time, but your best bet is to just keep tasting it as it goes. Go for it, and post back with your results!

I have cold steeped a little in relation to brewing, herbs, crystal malts, and you will get smoother flavor with less bitterness. The decision if it is worth it is brewmasters choice.

I have usually steeped overnight or so, then removed the herbs or crystal malts before anything else. At this point I believe you have the smooth flavor with less bitterness, even if you heat it some. Personally, I would be more tempted to add something like this at flameout.

If I added it at flameout, how can I ensure that it's sanitary? Just pre-boil the water, then cool it down to whatever temp I'm steeping at, I suppose?

I've been thinking about cold steeping some of my dark grains as well. would love to know more about this technique.

corwin6654 said:

If I added it at flameout, how can I ensure that it's sanitary? Just pre-boil the water, then cool it down to whatever temp I'm steeping at, I suppose?

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No, you'd have to boil the liquid at least briefly after the steep. Grains are crawling with bacteria, and a cold steep would ensure lactobacillus contamination at the very least. You'd have to bring the liquid up to a boil after removing the grains.

Yooper said:

No, you'd have to boil the liquid at least briefly after the steep. Grains are crawling with bacteria, and a cold steep would ensure lactobacillus contamination at the very least. You'd have to bring the liquid up to a boil after removing the grains.

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Yeah, when I used cold steeped grains for a mead I brought the liquid up to for a short boil (5-10 minutes) before turning off the heat and adding the honey.

If I was adding this to a beer I would just add it to the wort before boiling, with the grains removed. You could add it at anytime during the boil you thought better...

just sanitize well and pitch a big starter, you should be fine adding it at flame out.

most bugs are killed at 170. this guy did a "No Boil" AG batch -

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/experiment-idea-no-boil-ag-beer-202785/

So what temperature would we be talking for a "cold steep?"

Are we suggesting room temperature or higher? If higher than room temperature, wouldn't it be nearly the point of a sour mash?

he mentioned 55* in the OP ala Deschutes

redcoat_or_rebel said:

he mentioned 55* in the OP ala Deschutes

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I saw that, but another search turned up an article suggesting 35 degrees C. I wondered if that was indeed too high, and it seems like the case.

I put mine in the fridge for 24 hours. Then I strain with a French press and add to the beer. I tried it with the mash water, the sparge water and at a couple places in the boil. The best results, I thought, were achieved when I added it 5 minutes from the end of the boil.

I steeped mine at actual room temp during November in California.

Any kind of actual room temp standard is gonna have limits. The temperature of an unheated room in Alaska during the winter or an uncooled room in Arizona during the summer would never be considered "room temp".

i thought room temp was like 70* or some where around there

With the knowledge about the cold steeping and the "Official Deschutes Recipe" you should be able to make a clone pretty easily.

Recipe type: All grain
Batch size: 5 U.S. gallons
Original gravity: 1.067
Final gravity: 1.015-1.018
IBU: 70
Boil time: 90 minutes
Fermentation temp: 65° F
Yeast type: English Ale

Malt
Pale Malt
Flaked Oats
Munich Malt
Dark Crystal Malt
Chocolate Malt
Chocolate Wheat Malt
Black Barley
Toasted Oats
Dark Candy Sugar

Hops
Northern Brewer
Nugget
Centennial
Amarillo
Cascade
Citra

Prymal said:

With the knowledge about the cold steeping and the "Official Deschutes Recipe" you should be able to make a clone pretty easily.

Recipe type: All grain
Batch size: 5 U.S. gallons
Original gravity: 1.067
Final gravity: 1.015-1.018
IBU: 70
Boil time: 90 minutes
Fermentation temp: 65° F
Yeast type: English Ale

Malt
Pale Malt
Flaked Oats
Munich Malt
Dark Crystal Malt
Chocolate Malt
Chocolate Wheat Malt
Black Barley
Toasted Oats
Dark Candy Sugar

Hops
Northern Brewer
Nugget
Centennial
Amarillo
Cascade
Citra

Click to expand...

Yeah, I worked up a clone in beersmith recently, but wanted to get everyone's thoughts on cold steeping the dark grains before I tried it.

Mind sharing the completed recipe you came up with? I was going to do it tonight but hey if you already have one that would be awesome.

I'm at work right now, so I don't have access to it. I can post it tomorrow though (I won't be home until late tonight) if you want to wait.

I am happy to wait thanks.

Here is what I worked up in beersmith. I'm not sure about the dark grains. After reading some of the comments on here, it seems like I may need to use more if I use the cold steeping method. Any feedback/thoughts on this recipe?

Hop in the Dark Clone
American IPA


Type: All Grain
Date: 6/12/2011
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Brewer: Drunken Monk
Boil Size: 6.70 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Brew Pot 9 gallons and 10 gallon rubermaid cooler
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
10 lbs 3.4 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 67.57 %
2 lbs 8.9 oz Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 16.89 %
1 lbs 6.3 oz Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 9.21 %
5.9 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 2.46 %
3.7 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1.54 %
3.7 oz Chocolate Wheat Malt (400.0 SRM) Grain 1.54 %
1.9 oz Black Barley (Stout) (500.0 SRM) Grain 0.80 %
0.50 oz Nugget [13.00 %] (60 min) Hops 18.3 IBU
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (60 min) Hops 23.9 IBU
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] (30 min) Hops 21.6 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (15 min) Hops 11.9 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (1 min) Hops 0.7 IBU
2.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Citra [13.4 %] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops -
1 Pkgs SafAle English Ale (DCL Yeast #S-04) Yeast-Ale



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.069 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.069 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.018 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.70 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 7.06 %
Bitterness: 76.4 IBU Calories: 312 cal/pint
Est Color: 24.6 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 15.12 lb
Sparge Water: 4.29 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 18.90 qt of water at 165.9 F 154.0 F

I'm going to attempt a CDA using Deschutes' technique tomorrow. Corwin, did you brew this beer? How did it turn out? The recipe I came up with is fairly close to yours.

I have grains cold steeping now, but the reading I've done indicates I should be using using more for a cold steep. Maybe 2x as much. I think I'm going to stop at the store on the way home and buy another batch of the dark grains and add them to the steep I already have going (better late then never I suppose).

A few replies in this thread mention adding the steeped liquid late in the boil, etc. But the article from Portlandbeer.org mentioned that Deschutes uses the liquid from the cold steep in the pale malt mash. I think I'm going to follow Deschutes' method this time and adjust later if needed.

No, I haven't made it yet. I attempted to, but I had a problem with my mash tun and a stuck sparge and had to scrap it. I had cold steeped the dark grains in about 2 gallons of 55* water overnight. The next day, I heated some water up and doughed in with the pale malts like normal. That's where I had the problem and got a stuck sparge and had to scrap it. My plan was to drain off the 1st runnings, and heat up the wort from the dark grains to use to sparge the pale malt with. I think it would have worked. I'm working on building a manifold for my mash tun, a fermentation chamber, and possibly a kegerator before I brew again, so I most likely won't try this recipe for awhile. If you try it, let me know how it goes.

question about the cold steep - do you crush the grain as normal, or are your cold steeped dark grains left whole?

Apoxbrew said:

question about the cold steep - do you crush the grain as normal, or are your cold steeped dark grains left whole?

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I crushed as normal.

I have mine fermenting now. I brewed last Saturday and as of Thursday a.m. it was down to 1.014 (I think going from memory at work) and of course I drank the hydro sample and it was delicious!

Here is what I did:
- created the recipe then doubled the dark grain quantities (this is based on some other research on previous HBT cold steeping threads and talking to a coffee shop owner friend about the correlation with cold brewed coffee which uses a LOT more coffee). The dark grains were crushed as normal.

- I put the grains in my mash tun inside a mesh bag and then filled the tun to the 2 gallon mark with cold water. I put the tun in my keezer, which I keep at 40*, and steeped for 24 hrs.

- when I brewed the next morning I simply pulled the bag of dark grains out rinsed them with a couple quarts of cold water to get back to the 2 gallon mark in my tun. From there I calculated how much more strike water I needed, added that and doughed in as normal (well normal aside from the mash water being black when I dough in). The article which discussed this beer with Deschutes mentioned they used the liquid from cold steeping in the mash, so I followed their methodology.

I have to say the aroma of the dark caramel, chocolate and roasted barley was absolutely amazing while it was steeping!!

Jbear said:

I have mine fermenting now. I brewed last Saturday and as of Thursday a.m. it was down to 1.014 (I think going from memory at work) and of course I drank the hydro sample and it was delicious!

Here is what I did:
- created the recipe then doubled the dark grain quantities (this is based on some other research on previous HBT cold steeping threads and talking to a coffee shop owner friend about the correlation with cold brewed coffee which uses a LOT more coffee). The dark grains were crushed as normal.

- I put the grains in my mash tun inside a mesh bag and then filled the tun to the 2 gallon mark with cold water. I put the tun in my keezer, which I keep at 40*, and steeped for 24 hrs.

- when I brewed the next morning I simply pulled the bag of dark grains out rinsed them with a couple quarts of cold water to get back to the 2 gallon mark in my tun. From there I calculated how much more strike water I needed, added that and doughed in as normal (well normal aside from the mash water being black when I dough in). The article which discussed this beer with Deschutes mentioned they used the liquid from cold steeping in the mash, so I followed their methodology.

I have to say the aroma of the dark caramel, chocolate and roasted barley was absolutely amazing while it was steeping!!

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Sounds like a success. Did it turn out dark enough? What was your hop schedule for the recipe you made? I just drank a Hope in the Dark last night, and remembered how much I wanted to make one myself.

Yes, I was pleased with the color - very dark I'm not really good at judging the srm's but it was porter like I'd say. It turned out nice despite the fact that I forgot the jar of srm 80 dark candy syrup that was in the recipe inside, so its still on the counter which may have darkened it a tad bit.

You asked for the hop schedule, but here's the entire recipe for what its worth. I only have a 4 gallon mash tun right now, so it has some extract to make up the gravity. The amounts listed here for the Crystal, Chocolate and Roast Barley are what I used after I decided to double them. Those are the 3 that were cold steeped.

For the hops, I was not able to match the exact hops that Deschutes used because I went to a smaller shop up in North Portland, and didn't have time to get to one of the bigger shops. The main hop I notice the lack of is Amarillo which I would make sure to get when I make another of this.

% LB OZ Malt or Fermentable ppg °L
38% 6 0 Northwest Pale Ale Malt 37 3
22% 3 8 Briess Pilsen/Light LME 37 2
10% 1 8 Munich Malt - 10L 35 10
7% 1 2 Flaked Oats 33 2
6% 1 0 Chocolate Malt (US) 28 350
6% 1 0 American Crystal 120L 34 120
6% 1 0 Belgian Dark Candi Syrup 32 80
3% 0 8 Roasted Barley - 500L 34 500


use time oz variety form aa
boil 90 mins 1.0 Nugget leaf 11.1
boil 45 mins 0.5 Centennial leaf 9.5
boil 20 mins 0.5 Centennial leaf 9.5
boil 20 mins 0.5 Nugget leaf 11.1
boil 15 mins 0.5 Cascade leaf 7.9
boil 15 mins 0.5 Centennial leaf 9.5
boil 10 mins 0.25 Cascade leaf 7.9
boil 10 mins 0.25 Centennial leaf 10.0
boil 10 mins 0.25 Citra leaf 13.4
boil 5 mins 0.5 Cascade leaf 7.9
boil 5 mins 0.5 Citra leaf 13.4
boil 0 min 1.0 Cascade leaf 7.9
boil 0 min 1.0 Citra leaf 13.4
dry 10 days 1.0 Cascade leaf 7.9
dry 10 days 2.0 Citra leaf 13.4


ps - I saw you are near Portland. They've had Imperial Hop in the Dark on tap at the pearl location lately if you haven't tried it. I think I know what my next project is, it was delicious!!

Cheers

I've done a Belgian dry stout with cold steeped grains, made a thread about it and taste notes etc, check it out.

I'd mash crystal by the way, it shouldn't really add any astringency. I just did roast barley and chocolate malt for the cold steep and added the liquid to last 15 min of the boil and the grain to the last batch sparge. Came out smooth and very dry as I planned.

Jbear said:

Yes, I was pleased with the color - very dark I'm not really good at judging the srm's but it was porter like I'd say. It turned out nice despite the fact that I forgot the jar of srm 80 dark candy syrup that was in the recipe inside, so its still on the counter which may have darkened it a tad bit.

You asked for the hop schedule, but here's the entire recipe for what its worth. I only have a 4 gallon mash tun right now, so it has some extract to make up the gravity. The amounts listed here for the Crystal, Chocolate and Roast Barley are what I used after I decided to double them. Those are the 3 that were cold steeped.

For the hops, I was not able to match the exact hops that Deschutes used because I went to a smaller shop up in North Portland, and didn't have time to get to one of the bigger shops. The main hop I notice the lack of is Amarillo which I would make sure to get when I make another of this.

% LB OZ Malt or Fermentable ppg °L
38% 6 0 Northwest Pale Ale Malt 37 3
22% 3 8 Briess Pilsen/Light LME 37 2
10% 1 8 Munich Malt - 10L 35 10
7% 1 2 Flaked Oats 33 2
6% 1 0 Chocolate Malt (US) 28 350
6% 1 0 American Crystal 120L 34 120
6% 1 0 Belgian Dark Candi Syrup 32 80
3% 0 8 Roasted Barley - 500L 34 500


use time oz variety form aa
boil 90 mins 1.0 Nugget leaf 11.1
boil 45 mins 0.5 Centennial leaf 9.5
boil 20 mins 0.5 Centennial leaf 9.5
boil 20 mins 0.5 Nugget leaf 11.1
boil 15 mins 0.5 Cascade leaf 7.9
boil 15 mins 0.5 Centennial leaf 9.5
boil 10 mins 0.25 Cascade leaf 7.9
boil 10 mins 0.25 Centennial leaf 10.0
boil 10 mins 0.25 Citra leaf 13.4
boil 5 mins 0.5 Cascade leaf 7.9
boil 5 mins 0.5 Citra leaf 13.4
boil 0 min 1.0 Cascade leaf 7.9
boil 0 min 1.0 Citra leaf 13.4
dry 10 days 1.0 Cascade leaf 7.9
dry 10 days 2.0 Citra leaf 13.4


ps - I saw you are near Portland. They've had Imperial Hop in the Dark on tap at the pearl location lately if you haven't tried it. I think I know what my next project is, it was delicious!!

Cheers

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Thanks for sharing your recipe. I like your hop schedule better, and may modify mine with more late hop additions like yours. What IBU did that calculate out to be? Let me know how this turns out, it sounds great. That imperial hop in the dark sounds amazing, I may have to make a trip down there and get a growler filled. Cheers!

I've been really digging my beers with a lot of late hops and along with the staggered additions I feel like I get a full well rounded hop flavor.

The Beer Calculus site says its 80.5 IBU. It doesn't taste quite that big from the hydrometer samples I tried, but the last hop in the dark I had was the imperial, so it may just be my perspective that's off... Also, that sample was before the dry hop which went in today (which I know won't change the IBUs but may the flavor).

ChillWill, that was my original thought on the crystal malt as well. However, in the article that interviewed Deschutes it was specifically mentioned as being one of the cold steeped grains so I went with that.

I'll let you know how it finishes up in a couple weeks.

Well, this beer has come and gone and I've been meaning to post an update for awhile now...

I was very happy with this beer and plan to make more real soon! It had a nice roast flavor that was mellow, very smooth, and paired nicely with the hop bitterness to produce a balanced beer. All of the late additions gave a ton of hop flavor and aroma. It was well rounded form the variety of hops with definite hints of citrus. I do think it would be really good with some Amarillo added (which was my original plan but the store was out) so I will probably add some when I brew it again.

Cheers!

I'm mashing a schwarzbier right now and am using the cold steep method for my dark grain.

What I am doing is that I steeped my dark grain over night in brewing liquor taken from my second sparge. I batch sparge and after draining my initial mash, I split the sparge between 2 equal sparges. When I do the 2nd sparge, I'll add the cold steeped grain and liquor to the sparge and follow as normal for any mash.
I don't have carfa special that the recipe calls for, so I'm subbing BP and chocolate. I think the cold steeping method that I choose will bring out a nice flavour and lots of colour while keeping the astringency of the dark grain in check for the style.
Cheers

My Belgian dry stout I used cold steep for has finally started tasting good. For a long time it was lacking flavour, however the flavour seems to have developed and out of nowhere it's got some awesome head retention. Brewed it early June

Is the consensus to double the dark grains in the bill than?

I think I did something like 2.5x