I find this to be really intriguing. Keep up the photos and updates. Here's hoping you create something completely original and delicious to boot. If I could get to China I would be glad to taste test it!
Brewing beer without malt AKA Maltless Brewing
- Thread starter Xier
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I apologize for disappearing for so long. I have been pretty busy in the real world and haven’t had the chance to get on here. Anyway, let me tally up my success so far.
The initial beer has a horrible taste. It seems that some unwanted non-Saccharomyces yeast may have contaminated it during the initial period with the bacteria. Basically, it tastes like fingernail polish remover.
In the second batch, the black rice became contaminated during the rolting with wild Saccharomyces. I thought that it may still be salvageable and could possibly make a decent low alcoholic beer. Unfortunately, the bag broke during BIAB and it all ended up getting tossed.
The third batch of the millet is turning out fantastically well. It has a very very mellow flavour but the complexities of the palate are amazing. I siphoned a bottle full out from the fermenter and shared it with four of my friends. They all really enjoyed it, even with it being so green. The only complaint was that the taste was too light for one of their palates. The mistake with this one is that I did not separate the trub from the liquid after the boil. Half of what is in the fermenter is trub and the colour of the drink is quite hazy.
The last batch with barley is coming along beautifully. After the initial boil, I thought it was ruined as the taste was so damned bitter. I added a little extra hop to this one to give it more punch and was afraid that I had overdone it. Well, now it is fermenting away and I finally took a sample today. The taste is spot on for a Budweiser or something similar, which means that it is a complete failure! Of-course, the reality is that I am just happy that it turned out beer-like. I am sure my friends are going to enjoy it when it is finished. The colour is very clear, nearly white.
Soon, one of my friends will come over and we plan to do a brew session together. I am hoping that he will be able to record it all on video so that I can then share the whole process with all of you. My plan is to create a Belgian witbier.
The initial beer has a horrible taste. It seems that some unwanted non-Saccharomyces yeast may have contaminated it during the initial period with the bacteria. Basically, it tastes like fingernail polish remover.
In the second batch, the black rice became contaminated during the rolting with wild Saccharomyces. I thought that it may still be salvageable and could possibly make a decent low alcoholic beer. Unfortunately, the bag broke during BIAB and it all ended up getting tossed.
The third batch of the millet is turning out fantastically well. It has a very very mellow flavour but the complexities of the palate are amazing. I siphoned a bottle full out from the fermenter and shared it with four of my friends. They all really enjoyed it, even with it being so green. The only complaint was that the taste was too light for one of their palates. The mistake with this one is that I did not separate the trub from the liquid after the boil. Half of what is in the fermenter is trub and the colour of the drink is quite hazy.
The last batch with barley is coming along beautifully. After the initial boil, I thought it was ruined as the taste was so damned bitter. I added a little extra hop to this one to give it more punch and was afraid that I had overdone it. Well, now it is fermenting away and I finally took a sample today. The taste is spot on for a Budweiser or something similar, which means that it is a complete failure! Of-course, the reality is that I am just happy that it turned out beer-like. I am sure my friends are going to enjoy it when it is finished. The colour is very clear, nearly white.
Soon, one of my friends will come over and we plan to do a brew session together. I am hoping that he will be able to record it all on video so that I can then share the whole process with all of you. My plan is to create a Belgian witbier.
Why not? It has grain, hops an yeast.
Bamsdealer
Well-Known Member
For those who haven't followed xier's process from the first thread, you'll find this worthwhile...
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/my-first-brew-aka-brewing-nothing-pics-299885/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/my-first-brew-aka-brewing-nothing-pics-299885/
fredthecat
The original homebrewer™.
yeah, find this thread kinda dubious. and going to need better tasting notes than "like budweiser" to describe an alcohol made in a radically different way from beer
Maybe by archaic German former law it's not beer, but most definitions of beer do not require malted barley. Beer results from the fermentation of sugars created by the saccharification of starches, mainly from cereal grains. Rice is included in this category.
What he is doing is not radical, it's quite traditional in asia. Budweiser is beer and has adjuncts. Kiuchi brewery in japan makes a beer which is predominantly red rice.
Malting develops enzymes. You could also provide enzymes to unmalted cereal grains which we do all the time when we say a grain needs to be mashed with something of sufficient diastatic power for conversion. Aka, it needs enzymes.
He's making a type of beer, based on precedent.
What he is doing is not radical, it's quite traditional in asia. Budweiser is beer and has adjuncts. Kiuchi brewery in japan makes a beer which is predominantly red rice.
Malting develops enzymes. You could also provide enzymes to unmalted cereal grains which we do all the time when we say a grain needs to be mashed with something of sufficient diastatic power for conversion. Aka, it needs enzymes.
He's making a type of beer, based on precedent.
ChickenArise
Well-Known Member
If we're being extremely pedantic, we'd need to get into the history of 'ale' vs. 'beer' (the latter being hopped ale), but come on people..!
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
Yeast is fungus.
bk0
Well-Known Member
This reminds me that I never, ever want to go to China.
JohnnySardonic
Well-Known Member
I don't see what all the fuss about it "not being beer" is... about. It may seem completely foreign to those of us in the west, but he seems to be making a traditional Chinese "beer." To question its beeriness seems erudite. To quote my favorite YouTube comment from an unknown user: "you don't have to be a d-bag to like craft brews... but it sure seems to help." Let's not be That guy. Why not applaud his herculean efforts to brew something that he can enjoy with his friends, without judging whether or not his brew falls under someone's overly strict - and IMHO antiquated - definition of "beer."
(most quotation marks I've ever used in six sentences)
(most quotation marks I've ever used in six sentences)
bk0 said:
Oh come on... You haven't lived until you've tried that rocket fuel they call gaoliang and woke up without knowing how you got to the hotel.
Back to topic:
I myself am working on three bastardizations of traditional soju/makgeolli, and there are process similarities, so I'm keen on this thread. I don't want the OP to be put off by "beer" semantics.
bk0
Well-Known Member
No, don't get me wrong, I think what OP is doing is interesting and neat. I just have 0% interest in ever drinking the stuff.
fredthecat
The original homebrewer™.
my thing with this is based on drinking lots of alcohol that use these kind of bacteria(yeasts? ?) to squeeze out sugar from grain. i have a feeling that the FG is going to be below 1.000 and will have very different flavours from a beer.
if he's tasted it he really ought to give better notes than "spot on for budweiser" (not likely imho). in the past there have been drinks made from a mix of barley, wheat and rice (makkeoli), that use the "red rice" yeast to get out sugar in a kind of mash. of course this person is doing a different process, but makkeoli is a million miles from beer even though its made with common beer ingredients (though not hops)
Step 1:
Choose your grain.
Any starch containing grain could be used, this is rice.
Step 2:
Infuse your grains with water. I imagine that you could soak the grains, but I opt to steam them.
Step 3:
Put your soaked grains into a traditional rolting chamber.
Cover and allow to cool.
Choose your grain.
Any starch containing grain could be used, this is rice.
Step 2:
Infuse your grains with water. I imagine that you could soak the grains, but I opt to steam them.
Step 3:
Put your soaked grains into a traditional rolting chamber.
Cover and allow to cool.
I agree with some of this, but not all. It's really not that important to me. The FG is not necessarily below 1.000 but could easily drop there. A lot of recipes for these types of rice beverages use an unfermentable sugar to provide sweetness and a little mouthfeel. Other factors will also play a large role.
Makgeolli (and sake for that matter) are closer cousins to beer than wine. Gelatinization of a cereal grain, converting starches to sugar in a mash-like process, fermenting by fungus, are shared traits. Wine is the fermentation of existing sugars from fruits (assuming you don't up the gravity with sugar). "Rice wine" is more the context of "Barley wine" and refers the high ABV. Makgeolli is typically in the 5-7% ABV range making it more a rice beer. I had beers over there that I swear were 90% rice... I can't say I enjoyed them either. Zero flavor and the color of white grape juice.
What would be interesting is to hop makgeolli it with an understated hop, for preservation and flavor. You would then have a cloudy, ultra pale ale with a bit of a lambic bite (and I admittedly use the terms loosely). I think this will be experiment #4, and is very close to what the OP is doing.
To me all this falls into "sparkling wine isn't really champagne (protected word)", "Kolsch can only be made in Germany", "Benz invented the automobile, so everything else is a knockoff"
brewski08
Well-Known Member
a couple definitions of beer:
1. an alcoholic beverage usually made from malted cereal grain (as barley), flavored with hops, and brewed by slow fermentation. (Webster)
2. a fermented alcoholic beverage brewed from malt and flavored with hops. (The Free Dictionary)
3. an alcoholic beverage made by brewing and fermentation from cereals, usually malted barley, and flavored with hops and the like for a slightly bitter taste. (Dictionary.com)
1. an alcoholic beverage usually made from malted cereal grain (as barley), flavored with hops, and brewed by slow fermentation. (Webster)
2. a fermented alcoholic beverage brewed from malt and flavored with hops. (The Free Dictionary)
3. an alcoholic beverage made by brewing and fermentation from cereals, usually malted barley, and flavored with hops and the like for a slightly bitter taste. (Dictionary.com)
ChickenArise
Well-Known Member
An interesting rant on the topic: https://zythophile.wordpress.com/2010/10/11/look-will-you-all-stop-misusing-the-word-ale-thank-you/
Step 4:
When the grain has cooled somewhat, sprinkle your rolting fungus of choice onto the top of the grain bed. Do not mix as it is still too hot within the grain bed. I used four packets of Rhizopus oryzae. Place a cover back onto the rolter and let sit. My set-up uses cardboard.
Step 5:
The next morning, 12 hours later, remove the top from your rolter and see this:
There should be white fuzz covering all of the grains on top. Take a large sanitized spoon and mix thoroughly, breaking apart any grain clumps. The point is to take the healthy growing fungus on top and mix it with the rest of the grains that are getting less oxygen while also bringing new grains from within the bed up to the surface.
When the grain has cooled somewhat, sprinkle your rolting fungus of choice onto the top of the grain bed. Do not mix as it is still too hot within the grain bed. I used four packets of Rhizopus oryzae. Place a cover back onto the rolter and let sit. My set-up uses cardboard.
Step 5:
The next morning, 12 hours later, remove the top from your rolter and see this:
There should be white fuzz covering all of the grains on top. Take a large sanitized spoon and mix thoroughly, breaking apart any grain clumps. The point is to take the healthy growing fungus on top and mix it with the rest of the grains that are getting less oxygen while also bringing new grains from within the bed up to the surface.
Interesting approach. A bit like creating a starter in situ. In reference to one of your earlier steps where you said you imagine the rice could just be soaked: I think you have to either boil/cook or steam to gelatinize the starch, breaking it apart. I cooked based on readings, but the next batch I may steam.
So you are not adding any additional water at this step beyond what was absorbed with steaming?
I added water, but what I found is the rice has to be nearly cold to mix in water, or you get rice glue.
With the red rice which still has it's hull, you don't have to smash it up? I imagine it doesn't turn to a glue ball as much with the hull intact, but it doesn't slow things down?
thanks for the pics.
No, I try to minimize the use of water as to keep it an oxygen-rich environment. In-fact, I use about half the water to steam this compared to what I would use to make rice to eat. As the fungus grows, it produces a lot of chemicals that break down the grain and further liquefy it so if you over-do it then you are going to end up with mush and rice wine.
No, I wouldn't smash the grain. The cellulase and other enzymes will take care of the hull. Plus, having the hull would impede single celled organisms like bacteria before it would a fungus. My grains have already converted today and I am about to start my brew. They taste like candy.
No, I wouldn't smash the grain. The cellulase and other enzymes will take care of the hull. Plus, having the hull would impede single celled organisms like bacteria before it would a fungus. My grains have already converted today and I am about to start my brew. They taste like candy.
Step 6:
Every 24 hours or so, mix your grain bed thoroughly, be sure to sanitize your hands, arms and tools first. After mixing, take a small sample with your spoon. When it tastes like candy, you are ready to proceed.
Note that the more fungus you use at the start, the sooner it will finish and the less the chance of infection. Having a wider rolter to maximize surface area speeds it up as well.
Every 24 hours or so, mix your grain bed thoroughly, be sure to sanitize your hands, arms and tools first. After mixing, take a small sample with your spoon. When it tastes like candy, you are ready to proceed.
Note that the more fungus you use at the start, the sooner it will finish and the less the chance of infection. Having a wider rolter to maximize surface area speeds it up as well.
This is by far the most interesting threads I have ever read. It reminds me of a really good series of books or a great TV show where you can't wait for the next installment.
Best of luck to you Xier, I really hope you create a beer that is original and that you and your friends enjoy time and time again.
Keep posting!
Best of luck to you Xier, I really hope you create a beer that is original and that you and your friends enjoy time and time again.
Keep posting!
TheWhaleShark
Well-Known Member
I'm exceedingly interested in this work. I've been researching historical beer production techniques. I've been developing a hypothesis that malting (as we know it) is not technically necessary for the conversion of starch to sugar.
Mature, un-germinated barley grains contain both alpha- and beta-amylases. In addition, the endosperm (the starch portion) and the embryo both contain thousands of mRNA transcripts, ready to produce gene products immediately following imbibition.
You're definitely on to something here. It appears that some external enzyme source is necessary, but I don't think it's for the amylase enzyme; rather, it appears to me that acidification is necessary in order to break down the hordein structure of the barley, releasing the starch and allowing it to be attacked by amylase.
The debranching enzymes are also produced prior to the end of seed maturation; hypothetically, that transcription can be re-initiated in vitro by simple imbibition.
So, your work here is very promising. I suspect the acidity is what allows this reaction to continue. The implication is that sourdough technology may have actually been a primitive combination of malting and mashing. Any more work on this since then?
Mature, un-germinated barley grains contain both alpha- and beta-amylases. In addition, the endosperm (the starch portion) and the embryo both contain thousands of mRNA transcripts, ready to produce gene products immediately following imbibition.
You're definitely on to something here. It appears that some external enzyme source is necessary, but I don't think it's for the amylase enzyme; rather, it appears to me that acidification is necessary in order to break down the hordein structure of the barley, releasing the starch and allowing it to be attacked by amylase.
The debranching enzymes are also produced prior to the end of seed maturation; hypothetically, that transcription can be re-initiated in vitro by simple imbibition.
So, your work here is very promising. I suspect the acidity is what allows this reaction to continue. The implication is that sourdough technology may have actually been a primitive combination of malting and mashing. Any more work on this since then?
This reminds me of the company in Europe that is making Maltless beer by using enzymes to break down the raw barley (rather than malting it):
http://www.novozymes.tv/video/508382/brewing-a-beer-without-malt
http://www.novozymes.tv/video/508382/brewing-a-beer-without-malt
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