Advice on recipe required - Rice malt and Sorghum malt

Hi All,

Looking at doing a gluten free brew and after some advice. Feel free to put your two cents in:

****** Original Recipe ******
60 mins
- Sorghum malt 3KG's (approx 6lb's)
http://www.brewerschoice.com.au/online-shop/gluten-free-products/gluten-free-sorghum-tub-28kg.html
- Rice malt 1KG (approx 2lb's)
http://www.brewcraftsa.com.au/showProduct/Brewing+Adjuncts/Malts+-+Liquid+Extracts/60075
- Hallertauer hops 10grams

15 mins
- Hallertauer hops (10grams)
- Wirlfloc tablet

0 mins
- Hallertauer hops (10grams)

****** Final Recipe ******

700grams Sorghum Syrup + Dark Belgian Candi syrup
1Kg Rice malt syrup
20 grams Hallertau hops @ 60 mins
15 grams Hallertau hops @ 15 mins
Wirlfloc tablet @ 15mins
15 grams Hallertau Hops @ flameout (0 mins)
700 grams Sorghum syrup + dark belgian candi syrup
500 grams Rice malt syrup

2 x US-05 Safale yeast
1 x yeast nutrient

N.B.
* The combined sorghum syrup + candi syrup was all the local brew shop had in stock due to QLD floods.
* Stuffed up and put too much rice malt in initially, should have been 750 grams not 1kg.
* AA of the hops was 4.6%
O.G. 1040

************


I'm going to over pitch the yeast but I'm open to suggestions on what type of dry yeast to use.


Currently have this brewing - http://www.brewerschoice.com.au/online-shop/gluten-free-products/gluten-free-oz-pale-ale.html

It's a full Gluten free kit, and so far it's going well.

Would it be crazy to suggest you cut back on the sogrhum syrup a bit? Maybe try a 50/50 blend of sogrhum syrup and rice syrup with the same hopping schedule...

strongly dry hop it, and add di-ammonium phosphate, it will ferment out in a couple of days instead of a few weeks.

yea but I'd still let it sit and let the yeast clean up even if it was done fermenting in 1 week

Lcasanova said:

Would it be crazy to suggest you cut back on the sogrhum syrup a bit? Maybe try a 50/50 blend of sogrhum syrup and rice syrup with the same hopping schedule...

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I'm guessing that will make for a less sweet brew? I know the sorghum can be very sweet.

Would this be the same as the rice malt I linked above? It's cheaper and I can get it locally. http://www.glutenfreeshop.com.au/Pure-Harvest-Organic-Rice-Malt-Syrup-P2512.aspx

Also dry hopping, I've got a general idea what that is. Will I need some flower hops (not pellets). Is di-ammonium phosphate yeast nutrient?

spaced said:

I'm guessing that will make for a less sweet brew? I know the sorghum can be very sweet.

Would this be the same as the rice malt I linked above? It's cheaper and I can get it locally. http://www.glutenfreeshop.com.au/Pure-Harvest-Organic-Rice-Malt-Syrup-P2512.aspx

Also dry hopping, I've got a general idea what that is. Will I need some flower hops (not pellets). Is di-ammonium phosphate yeast nutrient?

Click to expand...

It will have less of the "twang" taste that you get from the sorghum syrup. That rice malt you have listed looks alright to me.

ive found that getting it to start and ferment faster, still at good ale temps give less twang. so the diammonium phosphate (its a simple nutrient-like a fertlizer) and getting your yeast going the day before helps this process.

to dry hop just throw some hop flowers (or pellets if you dont have them), maybe 1/4 to 1/2 oz or so into the fermenter. i try not to touch the before they go in.

lots of the ales in the uk go straight from the fermenter to a keg and then pub in a week or 10 days, they are really good. so im not sure you need to let it set around too much after your sure its done. this is a pretty debatable point. So I keg and cool it, and start drinking after a day or so!

I have a 5 gallon 6# sorghum 1# dark candy OG 1.060 FG 1.012, that I brewed exactly one week ago using these techniques. It is excellent right now, in fact i dont think anyone could tell its GF.

spaced said:

I'm guessing that will make for a less sweet brew? I know the sorghum can be very sweet.

Would this be the same as the rice malt I linked above? It's cheaper and I can get it locally. http://www.glutenfreeshop.com.au/Pure-Harvest-Organic-Rice-Malt-Syrup-P2512.aspx

Also dry hopping, I've got a general idea what that is. Will I need some flower hops (not pellets). Is di-ammonium phosphate yeast nutrient?

Click to expand...

Like BBBF said, it will have less "twang". If a beer is sweet that's because there are some unfermentable sugars present. I'm pretty sure sorghum syrup and rice syrup (or malt syrup) are highly fermentable and won't leave a whole lot of residual sweetness like blackstrap molasses would.

Lcasanova said:

Like BBBF said, it will have less "twang". If a beer is sweet that's because there are some unfermentable sugars present. I'm pretty sure sorghum syrup and rice syrup (or malt syrup) are highly fermentable and won't leave a whole lot of residual sweetness like blackstrap molasses would.

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+1 on sweetness coming from unfermentable or unfermented sugars.

Sorghum syrup is about 75% fermentable sugars
BRS is about 80-85% fermentable sugars.

A 50/50 blend of rice-sorghum does a really good job of matching the carb/protein/fat and mineral profile of barley extract. Additionally I've noticed that it really helps to minimize the sorghum 'twang' lots of people notice.

Or if you don't like the twang, just dry-hop the bejeebers out of it and you'll be fine (particularly if you have a citrusy hop to dry-hop with, like Cascade or Amarillo).

oh, and as pintail said, definitely use some DAP to help boost the fermentation, as BRS has very few nutrients to help along the fermentation.

Thanks for all the info guys. If I want to bring up the alcohol content do you suggest adding in some corn syrup (does it go at the end or the start of a boil). Also should I add the rice malt to the end or the start of the boil, as I've heard people say not to boil honey.

spaced said:

Thanks for all the info guys. If I want to bring up the alcohol content do you suggest adding in some corn syrup (does it go at the end or the start of a boil). Also should I add the rice malt to the end or the start of the boil, as I've heard people say not to boil honey.

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I have added rice syrup for the full 60 min boil along with the sorghum extract. I usually add honey at flameout unless the recipe states otherwise.

Really, the only reason I've seen not to boil honey is to retain honey's more delicate flavors. While it matters in meads, I'm not really sure that matters in a beer where the hops are most of the flavor.

Ahhh ok, thanks for the info, much appreciated.

I would use S33 for the yeast here. Sounds like a nice belgian ale to me.

Also, if you are going with your mix of sorghum and rice, then don't add any yeast nutrient, too much FAN causes several off flavors. IF you are going 50/50, add about 1/5 the recommended dose.

Also, do not pull it from the fermenter after a week, the yeast need time to clean up their mess they made. Your yeast will reward your patience every time.

*Commercial brewery operations can ferment to tap in 10 days due to one of a few factors: Very low OG, overpitching, or yeast dump/filtering. We can replicate this for a few styles on the homebrew scale, but the only reason would be if you are in a real hurry, the beers would still most likely be better with a longer tank time.

Where does everyone get their Brown Rice Syrup and what brands do you use? At the healthfood store where I live they charge an insane amount for 1 lb of brown rice syrup...

andrewdell19 said:

Where does everyone get their Brown Rice Syrup and what brands do you use? At the healthfood store where I live they charge an insane amount for 1 lb of brown rice syrup...

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Brewbrothers.biz. $3/lb.

DKershner said:

I would use S33 for the yeast here. Sounds like a nice belgian ale to me.

Also, if you are going with your mix of sorghum and rice, then don't add any yeast nutrient, too much FAN causes several off flavors. IF you are going 50/50, add about 1/5 the recommended dose.

Also, do not pull it from the fermenter after a week, the yeast need time to clean up their mess they made. Your yeast will reward your patience every time.

*Commercial brewery operations can ferment to tap in 10 days due to one of a few factors: Very low OG, overpitching, or yeast dump/filtering. We can replicate this for a few styles on the homebrew scale, but the only reason would be if you are in a real hurry, the beers would still most likely be better with a longer tank time.

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If I over pitch, should I still not add the nutrients? Looks like this will be put in the fermenter this weekend, with Lcasanova recommendation of 50/50 rice/sorghum

spaced said:

If I over pitch, should I still not add the nutrients? Looks like this will be put in the fermenter this weekend, with Lcasanova recommendation of 50/50 rice/sorghum

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Why would you overpitch? I also don't think I ever recommended not adding nutrients. Regardless of how much yeast you pitch though, the nutrient should be the same. They are two separate calculations.

DKershner said:

Why would you overpitch? I also don't think I ever recommended not adding nutrients. Regardless of how much yeast you pitch though, the nutrient should be the same. They are two separate calculations.

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Sorry, this is what you said above?

"Also, if you are going with your mix of sorghum and rice, then don't add any yeast nutrient"

Friend recommended to overpitch to ensure it definitely takes hold. Worked well for my current pale ale (that's bottle conditioning).

spaced said:

Sorry, this is what you said above?

"Also, if you are going with your mix of sorghum and rice, then don't add any yeast nutrient"

Friend recommended to overpitch to ensure it definitely takes hold. Worked well for my current pale ale (that's bottle conditioning).

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The reason for using yeast nutrient is that BRS (and some of the other GF fermentables) are low in some of the nutrients the yeast needs, so if BRS makes up the majority of your grain bill, you may need to add yeast nutrient.

Sorghum, however, has the necessary nutrients, so if you are using enough of it, it makes the yeast nutrient unnecessary.

dorklord said:

The reason for using yeast nutrient is that BRS (and some of the other GF fermentables) are low in some of the nutrients the yeast needs, so if BRS makes up the majority of your grain bill, you may need to add yeast nutrient.

Sorghum, however, has the necessary nutrients, so if you are using enough of it, it makes the yeast nutrient unnecessary.

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Ahhh ok, gotcha. FYI, I've only ever brewed one batch so this is all very new to me.

Update. It was brew day today. Put it in the fermenter today, and updated the original post with the final recipe. Will put up more information as the brew progresses. Thanks for everyone's input.

Final gravity is 1006. A little more bitter than I was aiming for but still tastes very nice. Into the bottle this weekend to carb up.

spaced said:

Final gravity is 1006. A little more bitter than I was aiming for but still tastes very nice. Into the bottle this weekend to carb up.

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You might find that the bitterness softens up quite a bit over the next few weeks. Most of my batches that seemed to finish slightly too bitter actually ended up a little less bitter than they should've been when it came time to drink them.

fermentedhiker said:

You might find that the bitterness softens up quite a bit over the next few weeks. Most of my batches that seemed to finish slightly too bitter actually ended up a little less bitter than they should've been when it came time to drink them.

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Thanks, that's some good news. Will report back how it turns out.

The beer is now in the bottle. It looked like a nice red-dish tinge in the fermenter before it went into the bottle.

Will update in two weeks when I give it a try.

spaced said:

The beer is now in the bottle. It looked like a nice red-dish tinge in the fermenter before it went into the bottle.

Will update in two weeks when I give it a try.

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It seems like you bottled this up pretty quick. Only two weeks after brew day doesn't give the the yeasties much of a chance to clean up. I usually prefer to wait at least 4 weeks before bottling, but then again I'm still new at this.

I hope it turns out well though.

If the gravity was low enough he ought to be okay. Some of mine I turn around in 14 days, some I let go a little longer.

gavo said:

It seems like you bottled this up pretty quick. Only two weeks after brew day doesn't give the the yeasties much of a chance to clean up. I usually prefer to wait at least 4 weeks before bottling, but then again I'm still new at this.

I hope it turns out well though.

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Had I let it sit for longer it definitely would have cleaned up more, but I'm eager to drink it and brew the next batch (which went in last night).

I think 4 weeks is way too much-you can start to have problems with that unless you are lagering. I let ale ferment (usually 5-7 days to complete w DAP) and then set a couple of days with finings/dry hop, and keg it. Its green for a couple of days and then cleans up quickly. 3rd day is pretty nice, comparable to a barley based beer! But the timing really just my preference, to each their own.

But I really think that you must add some DAP nutrients to sorghum, I believe this is why you get the sharp metalic flavor from it, use DAP and you will get little or no bite. BTW I mean 1 or 1/2 tsp of DAP per 5 gallon batch. Not the winemakers 1 tsp per gallon!

pintail78 said:

I think 4 weeks is way too much-you can start to have problems with that unless you are lagering. I let ale ferment (usually 5-7 days to complete w DAP) and then set a couple of days with finings/dry hop, and keg it. Its green for a couple of days and then cleans up quickly. 3rd day is pretty nice, comparable to a barley based beer! But the timing really just my preference, to each their own.

But I really think that you must add some DAP nutrients to sorghum, I believe this is why you get the sharp metalic flavor from it, use DAP and you will get little or no bite. BTW I mean 1 or 1/2 tsp of DAP per 5 gallon batch. Not the winemakers 1 tsp per gallon!

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I don't know what DAP is but I add 1 yeast nutrient sachet to the brew and it seems to finish around 10 days. I don't use finings because my wife is a vegetarian.

So far I've been very happy with the clarity of my beer. First one was all sorghum though, so I wonder if the BRS will make any difference.

gavo said:

It seems like you bottled this up pretty quick. Only two weeks after brew day doesn't give the the yeasties much of a chance to clean up. I usually prefer to wait at least 4 weeks before bottling, but then again I'm still new at this.

I hope it turns out well though.

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I think I should have left this specific brew longer in the fermenter. Probably only a couple of days.

Has been very slow to carb up to. The first batch was carbed in 8 days, this one was still flat at eight days. Going to test another bottle at 14 days.

*****
Update 25/02/2011
Tried another one last night. Still not carbed up enough, so I'm moving them to a shelf which should be a warmer location. Taste not as good as it could be, wouldn't brew it again. Might change my mind if it carbs up some more.

This beer did end up growing on me. Not what I expected but I've learnt from the experience.

I wouldn't recommend this recipe to anyone though.