Jamil's Belgian Strong Dark - Can You Brew It

So, I've got my 1st batch (Irish Red Extract kit) in bottles to be consumed in a few weeks.

My 2nd Batch (Belgian Dubbel from The Jamil Show-Can You Brew It) is in the carboy right now. This was my first AG brew and everything was very smooth.

The next thing I would like to get going is a Belgian Strong Dark/Quadrupel, in the 9-10.5% range.

Has anyone brewed the recipe given on the show (all grain)? I am really nervous about a BSDA coming out overly Sweet and cloying, which to me ruins the beer. 4% Sugar also seems on the low end of where the Trappists are brewing. (I've read Brew Like a Monk cover to cover)

I input the recipe into Hopville, and got a few variances from the show, notably the color being darker than the 20SRM mentioned.




He also mentioned mashing at 153 - how much would lowering the mash to 150 or so change the ferment-ability/Final Gravity? When I look at the commercial examples I really like Chimay Blue, St Bernadus 12, Rochefort 10 - these are all fairly dry in the 1.010 range FG - where Jamil's recipe finishes at 1.024.

I also have .5 Oz Tettanang Hops leftover (re-vacuum sealed and put in freezer) from my Dubbel - Could I buy a 2oz pack of Hallartau and add the Tettenang to make up the total 2 1/2 oz? I believe these hops are fairly similar. And it is only a 60min Bittering addition.

Any other tips for the BSDA? Beers like this are the reason I wanted to start brewing. Big, Expensive, and damn delicious. If I can make this for $1/12 oz bottle, I will be a happy man.


With the Blowoff the Dubbel did, I am not sure what to expect with the BSDA.

I just recently did a BDSA and learned quite a few thing from it. some recommendations I got that I will pass on to you are mash low and long (I did 90 min at 149) so you get the maximum fermentability so you don't end up with too sweet of a finished beer. Make a BIG starter, I ended up doing a 2 liter, decanting that and stepping up to a 4 liter. Expect BIG blowoff. Do your best to keep your fermentation temps in the mid 60s atleast during the first part of vigorous fermentation or you could end up with some serious fusel alcohol flavors. To achieve good balance in the beer try and get your BU:GU ratio somewhere around .28-.30. Have fun with it!

-IBUs seem low to me, but preference I guess. I shoot for close to 30 on my Belgians (im doing golden strong and saisons though...)

-I use Tettnang a LOT cause I had a huge amount of them. No probs in this beer, plus .5 is very little.

-I'd lower your base malt a little and do more sugar. I believe my additions are usually 10%, and add that after the primary ferment seems to slow.

-you can actually mash quite low and dry it out. I wouldn't be afraid to mash at 145-149 ~75mns.

oh, and your color is coming mostly from that Special B and Caramunich. You may be able to leave out the caramunich and get you color closer without altering the flavor profile much at all.

Komodo said:

-IBUs seem low to me, but preference I guess. I shoot for close to 30 on my Belgians (im doing golden strong and saisons though...)

-I use Tettnang a LOT cause I had a huge amount of them. No probs in this beer, plus .5 is very little.

-I'd lower your base malt a little and do more sugar. I believe my additions are usually 10%, and add that after the primary ferment seems to slow.

-you can actually mash quite low and dry it out. I wouldn't be afraid to mash at 145-149 ~75mns.

oh, and your color is coming mostly from that Special B and Caramunich. You may be able to leave out the caramunich and get you color closer without altering the flavor profile much at all.

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Good points. Instead of looking at the # of IBU's, look at the BU:GU ratio. The recommended ratio is .297 ( that is average for the style) some go slightly higher and some go slightly lower. But I have found that is a pretty good ratio to shoot for.

To dry it out a little more, up the sugar and mash lower and longer. 10% or even more sugar is used often.

As for color, you can do what komodo suggest or keep it the same and don't worry about the color. I do some BDSA's that are pretty dark.

Make a big starter, aerate well. Pitch in the mid sixties and hold it ther for a day or two until things get started. If you let the temp get too hot too fast it is hard to control and trying to cool an already fermenting beer using Belgian yeast runs the risk of it stopping. Belgian yeasts do not like to be cooled after they start. Pitching low and then slowly raising the temp makes it much easier to control. If it gets too hot to fast you will end up with fusels.

Let it fully ferment and give it olenty of time to age.

enjoy.

Regarding IBUs, Ragar Calculation shows mid 30s, Tinseth shows that low number. Not sure why the difference is so pronounced, or why the Hopville software will not save it when I switch.

Does BU;GU Ratios expect a specific calculation for IBU? Jamil used the Ragar formula when talking about the recipe.

I've dropped some specialty malts down a bit and added more sugar.

http://hopville.com/recipe/1676884

Do you think adding the sugar late is worthwhile when sugar is less than 10% of the grain bill?

I used 1.25 Qts/Lb for the Dubbel Mash. Any reason to change that for a larger grain bill?

the BU:GU ratio is simply your IBU(22.5) divided by the decimal portion of your OG (103) which would give 22.5/103= .22 which is low for the style. Beergolf's suggestions are all good and I can personally vouch for the fact that with similar suggestions he helped me formulate what I can already tell is going to be an amazing BDSA!

From everything I have ever heard or read on the subject I would ne er formulate a BSD like Jamil did. I would go simpler grain bill and more sugar. Jamil himself said if he were to write that recipe today it would be very different. However he swears it works. So I tried it.

It was awesome. So malty and complex with lots of dark fruit flavors. It is a good recipe as is. The beauty of honebrewing is you can change it as you see fit.

mcwilcr said:

the BU:GU ratio is simply your IBU(22.5) divided by the decimal portion of your OG (103) which would give 22.5/103= .22 which is low for the style. Beergolf's suggestions are all good and I can personally vouch for the fact that with similar suggestions he helped me formulate what I can already tell is going to be an amazing BDSA!

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Yes, I understand the bu:GU ratio... what I don't get is how ibus calculated so wildly different between rager (36ibu) and tinseth (22ibu).

Jamil used rager on the show.

I find tinseth to be the most accurate, because rager seems to be too high.

the BU:GU ratio is simply your IBU(22.5) divided by the decimal portion of your OG (103) which would give 22.5/103= .22 which is low for the style. Beergolf's suggestions are all good and I can personally vouch for the fact that with similar suggestions he helped me formulate what I can already tell is going to be an amazing BDSA!

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Thanks for the props. Belgians are my passion and I brew them often. I am still learning, but every one is getting better. It is the little details, like BU:GU ratio that helps figure out the final product. Fermentation temps and how you control them is the other big factor.

From what I am told tensing is more accurate for full boils but they are pretty close to one another for concentrated boils. I use the tinseth formula when formulating my recipes but you bring up a good question. If I were in your shoes trying to replicate Jamil's recipe I would probably figure out what his ratio was using the rager formula and try to get somewhere close to that with your hops using the same formula. Not to say its the right way to go but it's what I would do.

dannypo said:

From everything I have ever heard or read on the subject I would ne er formulate a BSD like Jamil did. I would go simpler grain bill and more sugar. Jamil himself said if he were to write that recipe today it would be very different. However he swears it works. So I tried it.

It was awesome. So malty and complex with lots of dark fruit flavors. It is a good recipe as is. The beauty of honebrewing is you can change it as you see fit.

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This is an important point. Ultimately you should brew what you want. If you want to brew Jamils brew, then you may want to brew it as is. Those darker malts you tweaked may have brought the color more in line with what his recipe indicated, but they also add dark fruit flavors.

I have to second or third what komodo and dannypo said. I have made this recipe about 6 or 7 times. I have lost track. I try to keep it in regular rotation, sometimes i like to oak it as well as rest it on cacoa nibs. But simply by itself, with some age, it is a great beer. It is jamils recipe, so you cant really go wrong. I love to brew belgians, and when i am looking to make an unquestionably good bsd, i go to his recipe by default.
I can assure you that if you simply follow his recipe to the letter, you will not be disappointed.

Jamil's said many times that he wrote the recipe a long time ago, and he would do it much differently now. But the name "Brew Like a Homebrewer" is a reference to Brew Like a Monk, and in fact Stan H was one of the judges when it was awarded a gold.

Here's some more reading

So, first, thanks for all the advice guys. I guess I just couldn't stand the idea of a big beer like this finishing at 1024-1026, so i switched it up a bit.

I used the basic malt-bill for Jamil's Dubbel, and scaled it up/tweaked a bit to make it bigger and a bit darker.

Ingredients

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
13 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 66.7 %
2 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2 10.3 %
1 lbs Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 3 5.1 %
12.0 oz Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.8 %
12.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.8 %
1 lbs Candi Syrup D-90 (90.0 SRM) Sugar 6 5.1 %
1 lbs Cane (Beet) Sugar (0.0 SRM) Sugar 7 5.1 %
2.00 oz Hallertauer [4.80 %] - Boil 65.0 min Hop 8 25.9 IBUs
0.50 oz Tettnang [4.50 %] - Boil 65.0 min Hop 9 6.1 IBUs
1.50 g Seeds of Paradise (Boil 15.0 mins) Spice 10 -
1.50 g Seeds of Paradise (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 11 -
1.0 pkg Trappist Ale (White Labs #WLP500) 2L Starter Stir Plate


Beersmith Estimated 1097 - I only got 1093, so my efficiency was off a bit (though I had expected this and set the target a bit high)

After 12 days I am at 1012. temperature was 64-67 during initial fermentation, then I've ramped up a degree per day such that it is now finishing up at 74F. Substantial blowoff, actually, my blowoff container formed a yeast cake!

Still hoping it comes down a few points (Beersmith forecasts 1009), as I am terrified of making cloying belgians, but i suspect it would be OK where it is. No off-flavors noted in the gravity sample. Smells like chimay.

Still has the fairly complex malt bill, but with a drier finish than Jamil's Recipe. Added the Grains of Paradise to give a little hint of spice complexity. Didn't really taste them in the gravity sample.

I would not worry about it being too cloying since you are already at 1012. As long as it has finished fermenting you will be fine. Check the gravity again in afew days to make sure it is finished.

Sorry to bring this thread back, but I'm curious... Has anyone brewed this recipe from the show and also tasted Heretic Torment? Are they similar? I've been looking to clone torment but there's not much info out there..

bigmunchez said:

Sorry to bring this thread back, but I'm curious... Has anyone brewed this recipe from the show and also tasted Heretic Torment? Are they similar? I've been looking to clone torment but there's not much info out there..

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Send JZ an email and ask him. I have yet to hear of him refusing if asked nicely.