RO for Light Colored beers?

So I have realized my lighter beer styles (although rare) always suck and have some weird off flavor that is very upfront. Mainly my Cream (Common) Ales and and American Wheat I tried. Pretty sure it is my water, since I have pretty hard water (no wonder my darker beers are great).

The Pilsen water profile is pretty close to Reverse Osmosis water. Would using RO without adding anything work for lighter beers like Cream Ale and American Wheat (with noticeable hop flavor, but low bitterness)? The Wheat is going to be about half Pilsner malt and half White Wheat malt. Or what should I add? I don't know what ideal levels for those styles would be. I definitely don't want the beers to be bland due to lack of minerals.

Thanks for any help.

My water, what is available online:

Hardness levels of water leaving our water
treatment plants range from 110 (hard) to 326 parts per
million (very hard)

Sodium - 19 ppm.

pH - 7.2

Alkalinity - 84 mg/L

hmmm. I too have hard water. Never noticed if my lighter beers had an aftertaste more then my darker. considering I don't often do them its not entirely impossiable. I would say that RO water would be ideal for all types of brewing not just lighter colored beers.

Well, you'd probably want to add a touch of CaCl, CaSO4 and MgSO4 to your RO.

Recantly, I have been using varying amounts of RO depending on the SRM of the beer. The lighter the beer, the more RO water I have to use. For my water and lighter beers, it's more than three fourths RO in very light beers.
Last brew I brewed an light ale. I didn't have enough RO on hand for my mash and when I checked the mash ph it was 5.8. Too high, even with two thirds RO water in the mash water

Ca Mg Na Cl SO4 CaCO3
Mash Water Profile: 60 13 53 113 89 43

Yea I guess it would be best to add some things. How's this profile look for those beers?

Too much Na and Cl, not enough SO4.

I'd like something closer to Ca 60, Mg 15, Na 20, Cl 50, SO4 150 for a nice light hoppy beer.

Hard to say since I can't taste it, but usually off flavors are
caused by 1)lag times in the fermentation, (usually from using
a dry yeast rather than an actively fermenting liquid starter)
which gives bacteria and wild yeast a head start in your wort,
and 2) No temperature control and so the fermentation temp
goes too high and more crap is put out by the yeast. I don't
mean just sticking it in a 68F room, where the internal
temp of wort can go up to 80F, but either a water bath
or a temperature controlled fridge.

The effect of sulfates in the beer is to sharpen the bitterness,
if you use soft water and add NaCl, this improves the body
and makes the hop bitterness smoother, like a mildly hot pepper.
There shouldn't be any unpleasant off flavors due to ions.
Jim

jdc2 said:

Hard to say since I can't taste it, but usually off flavors are
caused by 1)lag times in the fermentation, (usually from using
a dry yeast rather than an actively fermenting liquid starter)

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jdc2 said:

There shouldn't be any unpleasant off flavors due to ions.

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Ions specifically affect RA, which in turn affects mash pH. Certainly anything over 6 will cause off flavors.

Bobby_M said:

Too much Na and Cl, not enough SO4.

I'd like something closer to Ca 60, Mg 15, Na 20, Cl 50, SO4 150 for a nice light hoppy beer.

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Cool. I got something pretty close to that now. Thanks man.


Yea my dark beers are fantastic, but each of the light beers I have done have all had this weird aroma and taste to them. Looking forward to trying this water. Good thing I like and primarily brew dark beers.

One more question. It says the Chloride to Sulfate ratio will cause it to be very bitter, which isn't what I want. I want hop flavor, but not sharp bitterness. Only shooting for roughly 20 IBUs. How will this affect it? Or should I decrease the ratio?

Bobby_M said:

Ions specifically affect RA, which in turn affects mash pH. Certainly anything over 6 will cause off flavors.

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If the water in the mash isn't acidic enough, you can leach tannins
out of the grain husk, but the ions themselves don't cause weird flavors.
Generally, the last thing to worry about when brewing is the water
chemistry, and normally the only time there is a problem is when you
sparge with very hot distilled water. If you mash with distilled, as long as you
let it sit in the mash at a lower temp to acidify first, it's not a problem
either.
Jim

jdc2 said:

If the water in the mash isn't acidic enough, you can leach tannins
out of the grain husk, but the ions themselves don't cause weird flavors.
Generally, the last thing to worry about when brewing is the water
chemistry, and normally the only time there is a problem is when you
sparge with very hot distilled water. If you mash with distilled, as long as you
let it sit in the mash at a lower temp to acidify first, it's not a problem
either.
Jim

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In addition, the op stated that his dark beers taste fine. Unless his
water is changing from batch to batch, it's more likely the strong
flavor of the dark malts is covering up the bad flavors that he can
taste in his light beers. To solve his problem, we really need to know
what his brewing process is like.
Jim

I wouldn't assume that dark malts are covering up off flavors. It could be true but hard water edit... this should read alkaline/high in bicarbonates is generally more suited to the acidity of dark malt use. I don't think there's any harm in troubleshooting from a water perspective in addition to any other process issue.

One way to eliminate it as a possibility is to go ahead and brew a light beer using modified RO water. If you still get off flavors, it's not the water.

JDC2, do you really think acid rests are the typical way of dealing with high mash pH? I don't do it and step mashes are enough of a pain that even if you know how, I certainly would rather not. If I couldn't modify the water via salts that already compliment my flavor profile desires, I'd directly acidify with food grade acid. However, since I so rarely brew very light beers, I just pay for distilled.

Yea I think if the dark malts were covering up off flavors, my Extra Stout wouldn't have got a 43/50 from a BJCP certified judge. It has to be the water. My brewing process stays the same. Even my Irish Red is great, and there isn't as much dark malts in that. My Pale Ales didn't have this weird off flavor either. We'll see what happens with this. I'll brew the Cream Common and the Wheat with modified RO water and report back in a couple months.

ODaniel said:

Yea I think if the dark malts were covering up off flavors, my Extra Stout wouldn't have got a 43/50 from a BJCP certified judge. It has to be the water. My brewing process stays the same. Even my Irish Red is great, and there isn't as much dark malts in that. My Pale Ales didn't have this weird off flavor either. We'll see what happens with this. I'll brew the Cream Common and the Wheat with modified RO water and report back in a couple months.

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Well, if the brewing process is the same, and the water is the problem,
then the bad flavors would have to be in the dark beers too, right?
Unless the huge amount of dark malt in an extra stout hides the flavor from
the judge?

No. Any given water cannot be good for both Pilsners and Porters. If a given profile has an RA of 250, it's perfect for a Porter and awful for a Pils. You can't talk about water being a problem unless you know the profile and what's being brewed. If your RA is somewhere in the middle, say ideal for an Amber beer. You might say that it's good enough for any color beer only because it won't be all that far off in its buffering capability. The mash might go a little too basic but may not ruin the beer.

If a brewer consistently makes good light beers and the darks are always horrible or vice versa, it's probably at least due, in part, to a high or low residual alkalinity.

jdc2 said:

Well, if the brewing process is the same, and the water is the problem,
then the bad flavors would have to be in the dark beers too, right?
Unless the huge amount of dark malt in an extra stout hides the flavor from
the judge?

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The water is the problem for light beers because it is very hard water. Hard water is good for darker beers, not good for light beers.

Edit: What he said.

ODaniel said:

The water is the problem for light beers because it is very hard water. Hard water is good for darker beers, not good for light beers.

Edit: What he said.

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Pale ales are light beers, and some are burtonized, some aren't. Probably don't want hard water for Czech pils.
There's an entire series of mp3 broadcasts on water adjusment at the brewing network:
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/Brew-Strong/Page-2
Jim

jdc2 said:

Pale ales are light beers, and some are burtonized, some aren't. Probably don't want hard water for Czech pils.
There's an entire series of mp3 broadcasts on water adjusment at the brewing network:
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/Brew-Strong/Page-2
Jim

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Pale Ales are not light beers, especially mine, and compared to a Cream Ale.

That's what we have been saying. I need to adjust my water for light beers because mine is very hard, which is more suited to dark beers.

My last shot for this thread.

First of all, there is more than one way
to make a dark beer. Using a yeast that doesn't attenuate completely
leaves some malty sweetness to balance the harsh taste of the dark
malt. If you use an attenuating yeast and couple that with a lot
of hardness which accentuates the hop bitterness, the beer is too
harsh in my opinion.

Second, you seemed to be complaining about "weird" flavors in
your light beers. I assume that means "bad" flavors, if not, my
apologies. But there shouldn't be any "bad" flavors due to water
hardness. Different from soft, but not bad. Usually you are
adjusting water because you want to duplicate a commercial
beer exactly, so you have to get the ionic concentration right.
If you don't, the beer won't be "bad", it will just not taste
the same as the beer you were trying to duplicate.

My problems with light beers were due to using dry yeast
and no temperature control, so I tend to think that's usually
the case, but only you know that, and only you know what
you mean by "weird".
Jim

We're talking about high residual alkalinity and thus a mash pH that is too basic as a function of water profile, not the flavor contribution of the various ions. Palmer's how to brew chapter 15 is a good place to start.

In fairness though, only knowing "very hard" and the alkalinity isn't enough to say for sure that there will be a mash pH problem. You really have to know total alkalinity, calcium and magnesium to figure out your residual alkalinity.

I had a big problem with beers lighter than 8 SRM for two reasons. One, my mash pH was in the low 6 area without the benefit of darker acidic malts and my sulfate levels were extremely low. I had a horrible tannin and soapy bitterness. It had nothing to do with flavor coverups or lackthereof.

What kind of dry yeast was causing you problems? This wasn't like 15 years ago right?

Bobby_M said:

What kind of dry yeast was causing you problems? This wasn't like 15 years ago right?

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Yes, it was a while ago. But I'm not going to start another
dry vs. liquid argument! There are posts everyday in the
beginner forum with people complaining about their lags
with dry yeast. There are bacteria that double in population
every 10 min, while yeast needs 1-2 hours. Lags are not
ever good.
Jim

Bobby_M said:

We're talking about high residual alkalinity and thus a mash pH that is too basic as a function of water profile, not the flavor contribution of the various ions. Palmer's how to brew chapter 15 is a good place to start.

In fairness though, only knowing "very hard" and the alkalinity isn't enough to say for sure that there will be a mash pH problem. You really have to know total alkalinity, calcium and magnesium to figure out your residual alkalinity.

I had a big problem with beers lighter than 8 SRM for two reasons. One, my mash pH was in the low 6 area without the benefit of darker acidic malts and my sulfate levels were extremely low. I had a horrible tannin and soapy bitterness. It had nothing to do with flavor coverups or lackthereof.

What kind of dry yeast was causing you problems? This wasn't like 15 years ago right?

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I emailed our water company about what I need and they said they were forwarding it to the testing facility or something. So hopefully I should find out the rest soon. I won't be living here for much longer so don't want to waste the money to send it to be tested. The place I will be moving is about an hour away and has similar water though. I'd like to get a ph meter instead of using strips, but I need to start testing that. I feel like I have the same issue as you. We'll find out soon enough.

I just read in Terry Foster's book on porter in the
"Classic Beer Styles" series that the reason London had
good water for porter is because of the high carbonate
and low Ca/Mg sulfate. The acidity of the dark malts
counteracts the carbonate and gives the right pH for
the mash.

London water profile (ppm):
Calcium 50
Mg 20
Sodium 100
Carbonate 160
Sulfate 80
Chloride 60

Jim

jdc2 said:

There are posts everyday in the
beginner forum with people complaining about their lags
with dry yeast. There are bacteria that double in population
every 10 min, while yeast needs 1-2 hours. Lags are not
ever good.
Jim

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Then they are the problem. Listen up trolldoll, lag times are no different for dry compared to liquid yeast. As a matter of fact, my dry yeast often takes off faster than does a liquid with a properly sized starter. Explain that.

wildwest450 said:

Then they are the problem. Listen up trolldoll, lag times are no different for dry compared to liquid yeast. As a matter of fact, my dry yeast often takes off faster than does a liquid with a properly sized starter. Explain that.

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Most people don't make a starter with dry yeast. That's one reason
why they use it, because they don't want to bother.
Many don't even rehydrate it. If you have an actively
fermenting starter of anything, it should start quickly.
I have no idea what the op does.
Jim

jdc2 said:

Most people don't make a starter with dry yeast. That's one reason
why they use it, because they don't want to bother.
Many don't even rehydrate it. If you have an actively
fermenting starter of anything, it should start quickly.
I have no idea what the op does.
Jim

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I do both. I make starters with liquid yeast or rehydrate the dry yeast, since starters are not advised. I too have had re-hydrated dry yeast take off much faster than a liquid starter. Like I said in the other thread, my room is a steady 64-65, constantly monitored.