Lagering Temp Confusion

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Cape Brewing

Cape Brewing

DOH!!! Stupid brewing...
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I've got my first lager in my "lagering fridge" and it's bubbling away at about 50 degrees. It's been in there for about a week now. It's a dopplebock clone of Maretti Doppio Malto. I got the recipe from the Szamatulski "Clone Brews" book (page 123 if anyone has the book).

From all the advice I've gotten and what Ive read on this site, I thought I was supposed to leave my primary around 50 for a few weeks, do a diacytal (sp?) rest for a couple of days around 65, rack it to the secondary and then slowly bring it down to, say, 35-40 for another couple of weeks.

The recipe is saying "47-52 for 14 days and then 57-62 for the remainder".

What gives??? Is the recipe just screwy?? Is it possible that it is intentionally saying to ferment at the higher temp in order to acheive a specific taste??

I'm not too concerned about it either way, I'm going to go with the advice I got from folks on this site anyway... just curious what folks thought.
 
Sounds like the recipe instructions are messed up. Raising to the higher temp in the instructions accounts for a diacytl rest for a few days and then maybe bottling to carb for a few weeks at the higher temp. Then you could lager in the bottle for a few weeks.

I think your plan is pretty close to what I did on mine a few weeks ago.
I primaried at 50F for about 9 days (gravity was at 1.009),
I raised temp to 60f for diacytl rest for 2 days.
Lowered temp 3F per day for about a week to get to 35f.
Transfered to carboy for secondary. (gravity was 1.006 my recipe target was 1.007)
Will secondary for 2 to 4 weeks.
 
First off, don't listen to the "ferment at XXº for X days" instructions. You need to instead play this one as it comes. A diacetyl rest is something that I always do with my lagers, always. It doesn't take a lot of effort, it just takes paying close attention. Here's what you do: watch the carboy like a hawk. Some lagers finish quickly, others finish in 2 weeks. My most recent lager, a munich helles fermented with WLP868, took about 11 days. But you don't want to wait until it's finished to the point where the yeast has flocculated. This is where the close attention comes into play. So let's say the yeast is roiling around in there. If your fermentation temps are constant, then you should see a pretty stable level of activity both from the airlock and by looking at how the yeast are making the particulate move around. As soon as you see the very first signs of it starting to slow down (Jamil Z describes this process as involving a little bit of clairvoyance, as in, you need to take it off just BEFORE it starts to slow down, but that's craziness), you need to take it out of the fridge and let it warm to room temp. Let it stay there until fermentation is done and the yeast has really started to flocculate---a couple days at least. This is your d-rest, and will help avoid buttery off-flavors. After this, slowly take it down to 36-40ºf, hold for a couple days, then transfer to another carboy. Lager at 36-40f for as long as you can wait, at least 6 weeks, more is better.
 
I've made the mistake in the past of tasting my hydrometer sample say 7-10 day into fermentation and trying to detect the diacetyl. The mistake comes in when the sample is 55F and the taste is somewhat masked by the cold and green flavor of the beer. Then you tap the keg 2 months later only to find a butter bomb. However, in my last two lagers, I've pitched big cell counts at ferment temp; 50-55F and have not had any diacetyl problems at all. This is a good thing because I was out of town when my ferment ceased so I kinda missed the peak time for the rest.
 
Evan! said:
First off, don't listen to the "ferment at XXº for X days" instructions. You need to instead play this one as it comes. A diacetyl rest is something that I always do with my lagers, always. It doesn't take a lot of effort, it just takes paying close attention. Here's what you do: watch the carboy like a hawk. Some lagers finish quickly, others finish in 2 weeks. My most recent lager, a munich helles fermented with WLP868, took about 11 days. But you don't want to wait until it's finished to the point where the yeast has flocculated. This is where the close attention comes into play. So let's say the yeast is roiling around in there. If your fermentation temps are constant, then you should see a pretty stable level of activity both from the airlock and by looking at how the yeast are making the particulate move around. As soon as you see the very first signs of it starting to slow down (Jamil Z describes this process as involving a little bit of clairvoyance, as in, you need to take it off just BEFORE it starts to slow down, but that's craziness), you need to take it out of the fridge and let it warm to room temp. Let it stay there until fermentation is done and the yeast has really started to flocculate---a couple days at least. This is your d-rest, and will help avoid buttery off-flavors. After this, slowly take it down to 36-40ºf, hold for a couple days, then transfer to another carboy. Lager at 36-40f for as long as you can wait, at least 6 weeks, more is better.
Click to expand...

That is the best description of lager brewing ever! nice job.
 
Evan, +1 on the description of how to D'rest & Lager. I agree that by doing the D'rest every time it is easier and safer because there is no opening the carboy to sample. I do every batch as a closed fermentation and so I have been doing the same thing. I do pitch plenty of yeast and so it most likely has no diacetyl anyway but better safe than sorry. Good Job Evan.
 
Evan! said:
First off, don't listen to the "ferment at XXº for X days" instructions. You need to instead play this one as it comes. A diacetyl rest is something that I always do with my lagers, always. It doesn't take a lot of effort, it just takes paying close attention. Here's what you do: watch the carboy like a hawk. Some lagers finish quickly, others finish in 2 weeks. My most recent lager, a munich helles fermented with WLP868, took about 11 days. But you don't want to wait until it's finished to the point where the yeast has flocculated. This is where the close attention comes into play. So let's say the yeast is roiling around in there. If your fermentation temps are constant, then you should see a pretty stable level of activity both from the airlock and by looking at how the yeast are making the particulate move around. As soon as you see the very first signs of it starting to slow down (Jamil Z describes this process as involving a little bit of clairvoyance, as in, you need to take it off just BEFORE it starts to slow down, but that's craziness), you need to take it out of the fridge and let it warm to room temp. Let it stay there until fermentation is done and the yeast has really started to flocculate---a couple days at least. This is your d-rest, and will help avoid buttery off-flavors. After this, slowly take it down to 36-40ºf, hold for a couple days, then transfer to another carboy. Lager at 36-40f for as long as you can wait, at least 6 weeks, more is better.
Click to expand...

Yes, very nice explanation. However, "room temp." is different for many people. My "room temp." is about 75F to 77F. I had to learn the hard way not to ferment at "room temp.". Can anyone say Bananas?
 
Soperbrew said:
Yes, very nice explanation. However, "room temp." is different for many people. My "room temp." is about 75F to 77F. I had to learn the hard way not to ferment at "room temp.". Can anyone say Bananas?
Click to expand...

The exact d-rest temps are not very important as long as they're above 60f or so. Esters, including the banana esters you described, are mostly created during the earlier stages of fermentation. By the time you're doing a d-rest, ester production is minimal to non-existent, so bringing the beer up to as high as 75f is probably not going to hurt anything. I recently did my d-rest for the helles around 70-72f, and there are no esters detectable. Hell, even with ales I typically allow my temps to go higher late in the fermentation because there's virtually no concern over esters and it helps finish the beer out cleanly and catch all the fermentables.
 
Good post Evan!. The only thing I can add is that, to look at the window for diacetyl rest more precisely, Noonan states to do it at 6 points above terminal gravity. This is what I follow, but once you do it once or twice, you start to see what kind of air-lock bubbling and krausen falling you should have when it's at this point... then you can stop checking gravity for every diacetyl rest. I'm sure if it's done at 7 points above, or 5 points above, it's not the end of the world.
 
Well, this method works well for me; taking multiple gravity readings like that cuts down on the amount of beer I have, and that makes me a sad little panda. But yes, if you want to get more accurate about it, you can go with gravity readings. In fact, I usually take gravity readings if my lagers look like they're slowing down relatively quickly, just to make sure that it actually is finishing up and not just stalling.
 
...just picking up on the "krausen falling" bit...

I've only been formenting for about a week and it's a reasonably big beer... with an OG of about 1.083. The problem is I wasn't thinking at all and didn't make a starter... I ended up simplly pitching a vial of WL 830 (German Lager).

I started overnight at 70 degrees to jump start the yeast, and then brought it down to about 52 over the next 24 hours. the krausen has already fallen a bit but I'm still getting some bubbling.

Maybe I'm jsut screwed because I didn't pitch enough yeast? Maybe I'm reading too much in the "krausen falling" bit and I'm actualy in decent shape and just need for the bubbling to slow a bit and then do the rest??
 
Cape Brewing said:
...Maybe ...I'm actualy in decent shape and just need for the bubbling to slow a bit and then do the rest??
Click to expand...
Yep.

A big starter is a definite plus for lagers; imho, it is a must for lagers. So, yeah, you might need to let it go a few more days, maybe another week or so. I hate taking too many gravity readings, so I count bubbles until I'm at the one every 30 secs. point (or thereabouts) and do my D-rest then. After that, I take the temps down.
 
I have the same worries about the Dragon Stout clone (page 38, Clone Brews). My first lager too. I thought the weird ferment schedule was because it was a Jamaican stout being fermented with lager yeast or something like that to try to clone the taste, etc.
It says: ferment for 2 weeks at 42-52F, ferment until finished at 57-62F. I used (as it recommended) Wyeast 2308 Munich Lager yeast. I did a yeast starter (my first) and it's been bubbling away for about 11 days now (brewed May 24).

So I should ignore the instructions that try to replicate the beer taste and go with a 'normal' lager ferment schedule?
 
menschmaschine said:
Good post Evan!. The only thing I can add is that, to look at the window for diacetyl rest more precisely, Noonan states to do it at 6 points above terminal gravity. This is what I follow, but once you do it once or twice, you start to see what kind of air-lock bubbling and krausen falling you should have when it's at this point... then you can stop checking gravity for every diacetyl rest. I'm sure if it's done at 7 points above, or 5 points above, it's not the end of the world.
Click to expand...

Noonan's lager book is excellent. I'm just getting started with them, but that book is packed with information.
 
Baron ken said:
So I should ignore the instructions that try to replicate the beer taste and go with a 'normal' lager ferment schedule?
Click to expand...

There is no "normal" lager fermentation schedule. A while back I did some more research on this issue and found that there are numerous ways to ferment lagers. All with their own pros and cons. Most of the results are summarizes here.

As for the OPs question, the answers that were given so far are correct, it doesn’t matter much how exactly you ferment this as long as you pay attention to the temperature early in the fermentation process. 42F might be a little cold for a primary lager fermentation. I’d use 48 – 50F as the temperature for the initial phase of fermentation.

Nice write-up Evan.

Kai
 
first of all ...never listen to anyone who tells you to watch a carboy like a hawk!

next time, make a big starter, decant the spent wort, and pitch it COLD, 45-50 degrees. let the fermenter warm to 50 or so and leave it for a month ... no watching, no birds of prey.

then keg the beer. you don't need a diacetyl rest cuz none will be created.

diacetyl is created when lager yeast is pitched warm.
 
teu1003 said:
you don't need a diacetyl rest cuz none will be created.
Click to expand...

You to are holding one. It's just at the same temperature as your fermentation temp


diacetyl is created when lager yeast is pitched warm.
Click to expand...

Diacetyl is always created. Even if you pitch cold. It's just less and the yeast will have an easier time cleaning it up.

Kai
 
Well, I probably erred, but I raised the temp to 68F. It had only been fermenting 2 weeks, so now I'm second-guessing myself.
5/24: OG of 1.083
6/7: SG of ~1.050

Targets: OG of 1.075, FG of 1.015

It's only been about 24 hours since I changed the temp. controller (and the temp is slowly rising). Should I turn it back down to 46F or just leave it alone and RDWHAHB?
 
teu1003 said:
first of all ...never listen to anyone who tells you to watch a carboy like a hawk!

next time, make a big starter, decant the spent wort, and pitch it COLD, 45-50 degrees. let the fermenter warm to 50 or so and leave it for a month ... no watching, no birds of prey.

then keg the beer. you don't need a diacetyl rest cuz none will be created.

diacetyl is created when lager yeast is pitched warm.
Click to expand...

Like Kaiser said, diacetyl is always created, you just minimize it by pitching cold. But even pitching cold, if you're striving for the very best beer, then a d-rest is something I advocate. Quite frankly, for the minimal effort that is involved ("take carboy out of fridge"), I feel the peace of mind that I get from it is well worth the 5 minutes it takes me to pull the carboy out and then put it back in a couple days later.

But to each his/her own. If you really don't feel like a d-rest, you might be okay if you pitched cold and you're using a strain that creates minimal diacetyl. But get the facts straight before you offer up advice to other forum members.

BTW, much as I hate using appeals to authority in discussions, I must say that I'm more apt to follow the advice of the award-winningest homebrewer on the planet than that of someone who thinks that cold-pitching completely eliminates diacetyl. Just saying.
 
Evan! said:
BTW, much as I hate using appeals to authority in discussions, I must say that I'm more apt to follow the advice of the award-winningest homebrewer on the planet than that of someone who thinks that cold-pitching completely eliminates diacetyl. Just saying.
Click to expand...


Its cool ... if you listen to some of the latest podcasts, Jamil notes that diacetyl rests are not necessary if you pitch cold. I didn't make it up. Its undetectable. Its cool if you do it ... but why pitch warm when you can avoid the problem to begin with.
 
teu1003 said:
Its cool ... if you listen to some of the latest podcasts, Jamil notes that diacetyl rests are not necessary if you pitch cold. I didn't make it up. Its undetectable. Its cool if you do it ... but why pitch warm when you can avoid the problem to begin with.
Click to expand...

Not saying that I pitch warm---I pitch cool myself. And as I noted above, you can probably get by without them depending on the strain. I just think it's such a small amount of effort for the peace of mind...letting the yeast clean up their mess, no matter how small. :mug:
 

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