Those who use cooler or heating elements help!!

Help. I am frustrated.

Set up:
I use 2 Rubbermaid 10 gal coolers, one for HLT and one for Mashing. I boil in a 15 gallon keg with a 3500 watt element in the bottom. The HLT is equipped with a heating element controlled by a Ranco. The Mash Tun has a stainless steel braided hose laying around the perimeter that connects to a valve. That is my manifold. This system is solely run on gravity with the HLT at the top and the kettle at the bottom (although the kettle is high enough that the chiller and the carboy fit under it!)

The Problem(s):
My efficiencies are always lower than 70%. The target on my last batch was 1052 and I got 1040.
The other problem is that I use a counterflow chiller. This means there is no cold break happening in the kettle and no whirlpool action to seperate debris. This also means that I need to be careful if the recipe calls for a more than 3 ounces of hops because all of the trub will cause the wort to flow so slowly through the chiller that it usually stops flowing when there is about a gallon left in the kettle. I do have a Bazooka screen in the kettle that gets completely clogged so I have to keep scraping it with a spoon as the wort is making its way through it.

The process:
I fill (10 gallons) the HLT with 170 F water to sparge. I know that is more water than I need but I use it to clean with later.

I use Charlie Papazans chart for the about of water needed to mash. For the last batch (10 pounds of grain) I added 2.5 gallons of 172F to the mash tun. Then I stir in the grain, adjust temp with ice or boiling water to arrive at 153. Lid it and let it go for 60 minutes.

I remove the lid and place an aluminum pie pan with a lot of 1/16 holes in it on the grain bed. I then open the valve a little bit and fill a pitcher and recirculate. I use 2 pitchers so that I don't have to stop the flow. It flows at a rate of a pint every 10 seconds. I recirculate for about 25 minutes.

Without stopping the flow I put the hose in the kettle and then open the HLT valve the same amound. the sparge water flows into the pie pan and drains through the holes. There is always about an inch of water on top of the grain. I do NOT stir the grain. I sparge until one of two things happens:I reach 1010 or I reach 8 gallons in my kettle. during the last batch (1040 OG) I stopped sparging when I reached 1010 and that required about 5 gallons of sparge water (which is exactly what Papazians chart says). The problem was that I only had about 6.5 gallons in my kettle. I need at least 7.5 because remember that the little bit (.5-1gal) stays in the kettle (it is mostly debris anyway) and I lose a little more than a gallon due to evaporation. So I added about 1 gallon of water to the kettle (pre boil).

Boil for 60 minutes, open valve and let flow through chiller into carboy. I add my stone to the carboy and begin aeration right away. I aerate for the time it takes to fill the carboy (about 25 minutes...it flows that slowly through the chiller). This last time I ended up with 4.9 gallons in the carboy. The foam always runs out of the carboy and all over the floor.
Thanks ahead time guys.

The only "problem" I got out of all that is that you efficiency is lower than you want. Everything else seems okay. Even the cold break issue. I guess I'm not understanding the problem.

For your efficiency, check your crush. I'd bet it is that. Where do you crush your grains? If the HBS, does it, have them run it through twice. Let us know how that works next time.

My eff was crap, too, until I finally decided to try a 10-minute mash-out. That's bringing your mash temp up to 170 or so for ten minutes before sparging. For some reason i was always too damned lazy to do it. I did one once and bingo- 82% (I had been averaging around 65%) Now I do one every time. Between that and your crush as Dude mentioned, you might be set. Also you might want to think about a sprge arm, but I dunno how much difference that would make.

Two other possibilities as well.
1. the recirculating will cool things down a lot. If you mash out by adding about 1g of near boiling water, and recirculate via a pot on the stove to keep the temperature up to about 165 - 170, you will keep the temperature up.
2. Filling the HLT with 170 degree water (unless the HLT is pre-warmed) will result in very cool sparge water. I currently use 185 degree water for the HLT, and by the time it meanders through the hose into the sparge, it comes out at about 168 - 170 degrees.

I now try to keep my sparge at 168 - 170 degrees, and consistently get efficiency >85%

-a.

ajf said:

2. Filling the HLT with 170 degree water (unless the HLT is pre-warmed) will result in very cool sparge water. I currently use 185 degree water for the HLT, and by the time it meanders through the hose into the sparge, i comes out at about 168 - 170 degrees.



-a.

Click to expand...

That's normally true, but he said that his HLT is outfitted with a heating element controlled by a Ranco, so that's not an issue here, since water and tank are heated together.

EDIT: Although it wouldn't be a bad idea to double-check your sparge temp with a separate thermometer..................

ablrbrau said:

That's normally true, but he said that his HLT is outfitted with a heating element controlled by a Ranco, so that's not an issue here, since water and tank are heated together.

EDIT: Although it wouldn't be a bad idea to double-check your sparge temp with a separate thermometer..................

Click to expand...

Duh. I should read more carefully.

-a.

You are fly sparging without having a proper false bottom. This causes uneven extractuion from the grains. Next time try batch spaging and see what efficiency you get.

Kai

I use Charlie Papazans chart for the about of water needed to mash. For the last batch (10 pounds of grain) I added 2.5 gallons of 172F to the mash tun. Then I stir in the grain, adjust temp with ice or boiling water to arrive at 153. Lid it and let it go for 60 minutes.

Click to expand...

A couple things.

First of all, for which malt are you doing this ? Not all malts are the same, enzyme wise. 1 hour at 153F (and lower) might not be enough.

Second, where are you checking temp and when ? Its great you start out at 153F, but what is the mid and ending temp ?

I'm leery of sparge systems without a pump because I didn't have really good sparges until I got a pump. I agree with what the guys are saying about a 10 minute mash out at 170F. And making it a recirculation mash out makes it twice as good because you get a washing effect of the sugars off the mash before you even start running wort into the kettle.

If it was me...

a)I'd modify the mash schedule to be 2 temperature steps or more time, depending on the malt used.
b) I'd double check the temperature and make sure its still hot enough at the end
c) I'd add a pump and do some recirculating, maybe change the bottom in the tun
d) I'd do a mash out at 170F with recirculation

The pump can also be used to push the wort through the chiller.

Kaiser said:

You are fly sparging without having a proper false bottom. This causes uneven extractuion from the grains. Next time try batch spaging and see what efficiency you get.

Kai

Click to expand...

Good point.

-a.

Wow! Thanks for all of the responses. All of my grain is crushed by my local homebrew shop or Northern Brewer. As for the "problem(s)" one is the low efficiency and the other is loss in volume due to the trub in the bottom of kettle which slows wort drained and sometimes stops it completely where there is around a gallon left in the kettle. When I said I sparge with 170F water I mean that when the water his the grain it is 170 ( I heat my HLT upto 184). I am sure a pump would do a lot of good for me but I am also fairly certain that others are using a similar set up and getting 70+ eff. Should I buy a Phils false bottom? Would that do it? I am still not sold on a sparge arm- if there is always an inch of water on top of the grain and my method is not disrupting the grain bed then I think it makes little difference how you add water to the grain. (I could be totally wrong). I will try a batch sparge next time. Would this be the best way to do that?
1. Add about 1 gallon of boiling water to bring mash upto 170.
2. Recirculate until clear
3. Open valve and run off all mash water into kettle.
4. Add Sparge water (hot enough to bring mash upto 170).
5. Recirculate until clear.
6. Open valve and runoff everything in mash.
7. Add water to kettle to bring upto pre boil volume or boil longer if I have too much.

Am I missing anything?

1. Add about 1 gallon of boiling water to bring mash upto 170.
2. Recirculate until clear
3. Open valve and run off all mash water into kettle.
4. Add Sparge water (hot enough to bring mash upto 170).
- stir the mash to wash out more of the left over sugars
5. Recirculate until clear.
6. Open valve and runoff everything in mash.
7. Add water to kettle to bring upto pre boil volume or boil longer if I have too much.

Otherwise you got it.
After the 1st sparging batch you know how much more wort is needed. Add this amount to the 2nd sparging batch and you will be all set with your pre-boil volume.

Kai