Consecration kit from MoreBeer

Well, brewed mine in June, took a smell yesterday and it seems like I may have made vinegar . If so then not only did I waste all this time and money, but I'm pretty sure I ruined my plans to follow it up with a Tart of Darkness clone (guessing this yeast cake will be trash if I do indeed have vinegar, right?)

Do you guys think the oak chunks are enough to innoculate a new batch after sitting in the beer for 6 months?

Could you make a starter from these innoculated oak chunks?

ruger988 said:

(guessing this yeast cake will be trash if I do indeed have vinegar, right?)

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if you're truly smell and taste vinegar, it means acetobacter is running rampant in your beer and you'll want nothing to do with any of it, least of all the yeast cake. give it a little more time, sour beers can go through phases. but if it doesn't improve, be prepared to dump and sanitize the bejeezus outta that equipment. if it's plastic, i'd be nervous about using it again.

actually, don't dump it: if you can, pull some out into bottles or jars, put a cheese-cloth over it, and age it out until you have a nice malt vinegar. makes a nice gift, and an even better topping for fish and chips.

misled_drummer said:

Do you guys think the oak chunks are enough to innoculate a new batch after sitting in the beer for 6 months?

Could you make a starter from these innoculated oak chunks?

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you'll probably want to add some sacch to the new brew. the wood should have brett and bugs in it but no brewer's yeast.

sweetcell said:

if you're truly smell and taste vinegar, it means acetobacter is running rampant in your beer and you'll want nothing to do with any of it, least of all the yeast cake. give it a little more time, sour beers can go through phases. but if it doesn't improve, be prepared to dump and sanitize the bejeezus outta that equipment. if it's plastic, i'd be nervous about using it again.

actually, don't dump it: if you can, pull some out into bottles or jars, put a cheese-cloth over it, and age it out until you have a nice malt vinegar. makes a nice gift, and an even better topping for fish and chips.



you'll probably want to add some sacch to the new brew. the wood should have brett and bugs in it but no brewer's yeast.

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I pulled a sample and it doesn't taste like vinegar at all, just int he nose. Could just be me, or maybe its just a phase like you said. Think I'm going to move it over to a keg and let it ride since it hasn't soured very much anyway. Do you think I'm safe pitching some of this cake onto a new beer or should the vinegar nose worry me?

I just pitched a bunch of bottle dregs over the last month, I'm assuming I'll be fine racking it this soon?

you should be fine moving the beer to a keg. i would purge it with CO2 before racking, then purge it again once it's full, to limit exposure to oxygen.

the problem that i see with those dregs you added is that you did so once the beer was 8 months old. there was very little left for the newcomers to eat. the brett might get by, but the LAB might have little impact at this point (i.e. those dregs might not have contributed much sourness).

sweetcell said:

you'll probably want to add some sacch to the new brew. the wood should have brett and bugs in it but no brewer's yeast.

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Thanks.

Given enough time, wouldn't the Brett be enough to ferment the new beer out without Sacc?

ruger988 said:

Well, brewed mine in June, took a smell yesterday and it seems like I may have made vinegar . If so then not only did I waste all this time and money, but I'm pretty sure I ruined my plans to follow it up with a Tart of Darkness clone (guessing this yeast cake will be trash if I do indeed have vinegar, right?)

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Ruger988, just curious, was the batch you brewed in June in plastic the whole time, or in glass? Could be if it were in plastic the whole time that the extra oxygen permeability of plastic might have contributed to the issue.
Cheers!

djturner said:

Ruger988, just curious, was the batch you brewed in June in plastic the whole time, or in glass? Could be if it were in plastic the whole time that the extra oxygen permeability of plastic might have contributed to the issue.
Cheers!

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Plastic Big Mouth Bubbler. Seemed like the best option considering the currant addition, from the sample I pulled laste night there's no vinegar TASTE, and very little sour going on. Going to rack to a keg and let it sit a while, maybe add just a little corn sugar to give the bugs something to chew on now that they have some age to them.

misled_drummer said:

Given enough time, wouldn't the Brett be enough to ferment the new beer out without Sacc?

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yes, the concern is how much "enough time" is. brett can take over a week to really get going... plenty of other nasty things can take up residence in that time. some bretts are faster than others, so you could always give it a try - make a starter and see how long it takes for the pH to drop below 4.5. if it's more than a few days i would be nervous about depending on those bug alone.

Are the sugars from the currants simple enough to be fermented by sacc?

I've got a batch going with Bug County and I'm trying to figure out when to add my currants. If the answer above is "yes," should I wait for the sacc to die before adding them, and if so, how long should I wait?

Has anyone done a clone of this beer and instead of using the Sterling/styrian combo, use only aged hops? I have 10oz left of some and was hoping to use them up.

Any potential downsides with adding 2-3 oz aged hops at the start and nothing else for the boil?

Pole said:

Are the sugars from the currants simple enough to be fermented by sacc?

I've got a batch going with Bug County and I'm trying to figure out when to add my currants. If the answer above is "yes," should I wait for the sacc to die before adding them, and if so, how long should I wait?

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I would add the currants after the sacc is finished. The sugars in the currants will be food for the bugs.

I think I added my currants 6-8 months ago. Wondering if I should rack off them....

jonpecan said:

Tricky, thanks for the detailed updates on the 2 batches.

Today I added the pedio. I avoided Roselare for reasons mentioned earlier in the thread. Hoping the previously pitched brett can cure any possible sickness that may occur.

Before pitching the pedio, I sampled the brew. The brett brux has only been in the carboy for 2 months. The taste is incredible. One of the best funky/sours I've ever had, and it is nowhere near complete. Kudos to the recipe.

Just in case my pure pedio addition ruins what is already amazing: I filled a carboy with the beer, and filled with a half gallon of the beer with stopper and airlock. Pleasantly surprised at the way the brett plays out on it's own.

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My update: about 1/2 year in. The half gallon sample I put aside prior to pitching pure pedio is still good, but the main batch with pedio is much better. However, not as sour as I would like, as many have noted. But the aging continues, so I hope it sours further with the pedio. Forgot to take a gravity, but will do that in the coming days.

With brett brux and pedio additions, as opposed to roselare, I think things are tasting great, and no pedio sickness. This would be a brilliant beer for the sour-hesitant - it has the sour, but not extreme, with a delicious base.

I racked off of the currants and cake - not much of a cake, but hard to tell with all of the currants.

I poured out some of the currants and yeast, and racked a basic lager on tops of it (w/ bohemian pilsner malt and corn grits adjunct) to see what the remaining funkifiers can do to a basic beer.

My Consecration kit is arriving today, hoping to brew this weekend. I've read/skimmed through most of this thread (not all...its friggin long). Great information here! But, of course, I still have some questions:

1 - Starter for the abbey yeast? Obviously, one smack pack for a 1.070+ beer is under pitching, but is that okay here or should I do what I'd normally do (i.e., make a starter)? (I'm using the Wyeast 1762 - Abbey II, by the way).

2 - After the abbey yeast gets the beer down to 1.020ish, is it necessary to cold crash to drop the yeast out, or is it okay to just rack into secondary, realizing that there's gonna be a lot of yeast still in suspension?

3 - If you do cold crash, let it warm back up before pitching the Brett? Will pitching Brett into a cold environment cause problems, other than maybe a delayed start by the Brett?

I'm sure I'll have other questions as this brew progresses...this will be my first attempt at a sour ale, so I've never worked with Brett or bugs. Looking forward to trying something new!

A few people have mentioned skipping the sacc and the brett and going strait to roselare. One person did a side by side somewhere in this thread. If I was starting over, I would do this as well. I'm about a year in now and it's barely tart. Another recipe I did around the same time with roselare only is tasting great and noticeably souring.

ja09 said:

A few people have mentioned skipping the sacc and the brett and going strait to roselare. One person did a side by side somewhere in this thread. If I was starting over, I would do this as well. I'm about a year in now and it's barely tart. Another recipe I did around the same time with roselare only is tasting great and noticeably souring.

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I figured as much. I actually went with a quart of slurry of Roeselare from a 4 month old flanders red. It's been about 2 months since I pitched, so no samples yet.

ja09 said:

A few people have mentioned skipping the sacc and the brett and going strait to roselare. One person did a side by side somewhere in this thread. If I was starting over, I would do this as well. I'm about a year in now and it's barely tart. Another recipe I did around the same time with roselare only is tasting great and noticeably souring.

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I fermented my first patch (brewed around April 2014) with the Abbey yeast first and then pitched the roselare. A few months later I brewed another batch with all Roselare, let it ferment for a few weeks, and blended it with the first batch.

The way I saw it the second batch acted like a big Roselare starter. Its a year since the first batch and it's tasting great, but not as sour as I'd like it. I think it still needs a few more months of aging.

I'm wondering if I should rack off the currants. The batch has been sitting on them for about 8 months.

Ours has been aging for 14 months now. We are getting ready to add the barrel chips. Question for you guys...did you soak them in anything to sterilize and/or add flavor? Or just throw them in (it's not like the beer isn't "infected" anyway)?

I'm not a huge oak flavor fan but want to impart at least a little. I'm thinking two weeks, then keg.

MFerBrew said:

Ours has been aging for 14 months now. We are getting ready to add the barrel chips. Question for you guys...did you soak them in anything to sterilize and/or add flavor? Or just throw them in (it's not like the beer isn't "infected" anyway)?

I'm not a huge oak flavor fan but want to impart at least a little. I'm thinking two weeks, then keg.

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I just tossed mine in there but you could boil them for a bit, but that might kill any bugs (if any) that are living in the wood.

I ended up racking off the currants about a month ago. Gonna let it go until October and bottle condition 3 gallons, keg 5, and leave about 2 for the beginning of a Sollera project.

MFerBrew said:

Ours has been aging for 14 months now. We are getting ready to add the barrel chips. Question for you guys...did you soak them in anything to sterilize and/or add flavor? Or just throw them in (it's not like the beer isn't "infected" anyway)?

I'm not a huge oak flavor fan but want to impart at least a little. I'm thinking two weeks, then keg.

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I found a cabernet that I really like and soaked the oak in that for a few weeks. I tossed everything, oak and cab, in there. I'm very happy with how it came out.

I bought and brewed this kits 3 years ago.

KIt is good, ingredients were good,instructions were OK (back then were off on one aspect).

I mashed at 156F.

I fermented with the recommended Abbey Ale 2 from Wyeast starting at 66F and free rise to 75F.

I racked off the yeast into a secondary and added the currants and Bret Brux after and held at 65F.

I let it rest on currants and brett for 8 weeks then added roselaire blend.

Roselaire sat for 16 weeks at 65F and didn't make a lot of sourness.

I moved the carboy indoors to about 80F for 3 months. Sourness reached commercial supplications levels.

As per instructions not quite being right I added oak cubes at this point. Beer got sick and spit out diacetyl like crazy. Continued 3 more months. Still a butter bomb. Cubes should eb added with roselaire blend. Vinnie's bugs make diacetyl but don't clean it up fast enough.

Added Bret Lambicus and set away for 3 more months at 80f the clean up.

Final beer was very close to commercial with just a hint of acetic acid because my airlock dried out I'm guessing. Still very drinkable and shelf stable over the last year.

I would recommend this kit.

I added my oak almost a year ago in quantities proportional to a normal sized wine barrel. No meed to time the oak addition with this method. Also simulates using a real barrel the entire time.

hi there,

i'm finally (!) ready to bottle this and have some questions on carbonation. i've never bottled with the addition of wine yeast so i'm wondering how much rockpile and corn sugar to use at the time of bottling. i'm using cork and cage for bottling so i was thinking 3-3.5 vol would be good. any tips would be greatly appreciated! it's been a long road and i'd hate to misstep at this point in the game

thank you!

I've brewed Consecration twice: both times, I added 2 g of Rockpile (rehydrated in 90F water) and carbonated to 2.5. The results were great with both batches. The amount of sugar you need depends on where your gravity is now. There's a nice section of Old Sock/Mad Fermentationist/Mike Tonsmeire's book that gives you a formula to work out carbonation for a complex sour (he also has a spreadsheet for blending on his site).

thanks very much for the response! after chatting with someone at my LHBS i went with 2g of Rockpile, and added 6g sugar to target 3 vols.

cheers!

The_Nid_Hog said:

I've brewed Consecration twice: both times, I added 2 g of Rockpile (rehydrated in 90F water) and carbonated to 2.5. The results were great with both batches. The amount of sugar you need depends on where your gravity is now. There's a nice section of Old Sock/Mad Fermentationist/Mike Tonsmeire's book that gives you a formula to work out carbonation for a complex sour (he also has a spreadsheet for blending on his site).

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The_Nid_Hog said:

I've brewed Consecration twice: both times, I added 2 g of Rockpile (rehydrated in 90F water) and carbonated to 2.5. The results were great with both batches. The amount of sugar you need depends on where your gravity is now. There's a nice section of Old Sock/Mad Fermentationist/Mike Tonsmeire's book that gives you a formula to work out carbonation for a complex sour (he also has a spreadsheet for blending on his site).

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Can you link to the spreadsheet? I couldn't find it.
Do you actually weigh out the rock pile yeast? Looks like to me it comes in larger sachets. I suppose no great concerns about contamination with the sour beers...
Mine brewed in 2013. Ready to bottle!!

TD

Here's the page with a discussion of blending and a link to the spreadsheet.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2014/07/priming-barrel-aged-and-blended-sour.html

I've always weighed out the yeast before adding it.

Thanks a bunch! I've got 60 gallons of sour beer, each a little different and all ready to bottle. Maybe I can do some blending!!

TD

thanks for the additional feedback!

Well I just took a sample of my consecration last night and it was Awesome. Perfect sourness to my liking. The last sample I did was back in June and it wasn't really close.

The beer is now about a year and 3 months old and I want to bottle, except I waited to add the oak until today, and now am reading this thread and realizing people have been aging on oak the entire time.

I'm cool with waiting another month, but wondering if I should add some additional oak in the process to make up for lost time.

More importantly, my gravity right now is 1.011, not the 1.008 that more beer says that Vinnie would never bottle above.

Maybe in a month I might lose another point, and I guess I will then use the priming calculator mentioned a few posts earlier. So I am just wondering what other people are having for gravity at bottling. Some other info, I did the extract beer with roselaire and belgian yeast at the start, and then added several bottles of allagash coolship and cantillon dregs over the course of the first couple months.

mclaughlindw4 said:

Well I just took a sample of my consecration last night and it was Awesome. Perfect sourness to my liking. The last sample I did was back in June and it wasn't really close.

The beer is now about a year and 3 months old and I want to bottle, except I waited to add the oak until today, and now am reading this thread and realizing people have been aging on oak the entire time.

I'm cool with waiting another month, but wondering if I should add some additional oak in the process to make up for lost time.

More importantly, my gravity right now is 1.011, not the 1.008 that more beer says that Vinnie would never bottle above.

Maybe in a month I might lose another point, and I guess I will then use the priming calculator mentioned a few posts earlier. So I am just wondering what other people are having for gravity at bottling. Some other info, I did the extract beer with roselaire and belgian yeast at the start, and then added several bottles of allagash coolship and cantillon dregs over the course of the first couple months.

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Let it ride until you can't stand waiting anymore, its only getting better.

My understanding is that most people are leaving it on the oak the whole time to get the most out of the "Russian River Bugs" in the oak that's included in the kit.

ruger988 said:

Let it ride until you can't stand waiting anymore, its only getting better.

My understanding is that most people are leaving it on the oak the whole time to get the most out of the "Russian River Bugs" in the oak that's included in the kit.

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I've been reading through all the thread since I posted. I guess I'm just going to taste for oak periodically and assess as I go. Hopefully I can let it sit for a month or two and retest and see if the gravity moves.

The thing is for me, I don't like REALLY sour beers. That's why right now for me is perfect, it's sour but not overwhelmingly puckering.

I think you are right though, need to just let it ride some more, as long as oak doesn't get too strong.

A week and a half after adding the oak cubes and there is a film forming along the top of the beer. Also the airlock is bubbling again. Looks like I will not be bottling soon.

Mine is ready to bottle. Brewed December 2013. too lazy to bottle.... Have actually 60 gallons to bottle of several sours. That should last me a really, really, really, really long time.

TD

That is over 26 full cases of 12 oz bottles. I've been meaning to make use of some extra bottles I've got laying around - mind filling 6 cases of mine?

Lol! That's why they've been sitting there! 8 carboys and two of those brewcube dog food storage bins as fermentors. I did make an effort recently and placed two carboys on a bench in plans to rack into bottling buckets. That was about 6 weeks ago. Between kids school and homework and sports and my own career, wife, dog, household tasks etc. It's been hard to find time or energy to tackle the job.
TD

Just keg it!!!! Much less hassle...

If my notes are right, looks like mine is two years old. Sticker I marked the carboy with says 12/2013. Time to bottle!! I tested them at about 10 months checking and recording pH and FG. I'll report my final numbers but tasted some out of carboy today and wow. Sour and complex. The wlp530 half is nicely complex and sour. The roeselare primary fermented half is much more sour and complex. I am.not sure if I should blend them or just bottle.

TrickyDick said:

If my notes are right, looks like mine is two years old. Sticker I marked the carboy with says 12/2013. Time to bottle!! I tested them at about 10 months checking and recording pH and FG. I'll report my final numbers but tasted some out of carboy today and wow. Sour and complex. The wlp530 half is nicely complex and sour. The roeselare primary fermented half is much more sour and complex. I am.not sure if I should blend them or just bottle.

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If you have the capacity keep some of each and blend some.

505-Brewer said:

If you have the capacity keep some of each and blend some.

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Do you mean blend part of the two halves (each with a bit different fermentation) together? I was wondering if you can just as easily blend in the glass after bottling too. I suspect that two 10% plus ABV bottles at once might be a bit much....

TD