Oxyclean + Aluminum = Reaction!

So, I'm no chemist or anything, and I haven't read the ingredients in Oxyclean, but...I made a fat batch of venison chili last week, and I used my 32-qt aluminum beer kettle because it was the only thing big enough. Afterwards, it had all sorts of gunk stuck to the inside of it, so I thought, Oxyclean will take care of that.

Well, not only did it take care of it...it also turned the inside of my nice shiny kettle to a greyish graphite color. So, something in the oxyclean reacted with the aluminum. Okay. Now what? I soaked it in starsan solution, hoping that the acid would remove some of the tarnish. It removed some of it, but it's still pretty weird. I'm not worried...I'm just wondering if it'll ever return to its original luster, and if there's anything I can do to help that happen.

Thanks!

Most likely the effects you saw are oxidation. There are several products that take care of aluminum oxidation. And I can't remember the name(S) of them right now but they can be purchased at an automotive parts house or automotive paint store.

I bought 1 product that works really well if nobody posts the name and I still have some I'll post it later

Or you could go with a very concentrated solution of starsan

nkonkie said:

Most likely the effects you saw are oxidation. There are several products that take care of aluminum oxidation. And I can't remember the name(S) of them right now but the can be purchased at an automotive parts house or automotive paint store.

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I think I'm gonna brew in it this afternoon. It won't affect the beer, will it?

DO NOT USE OXYCLEAN OR SODA CRYSTAL WITH ALUMINIUM.

Sorry for the loud voice. It corrodes and oxidises it badly.
I'm not sure if it's poisonous but it's not good.

Scrub the kettle with a scourer and rinse thoroughly before using.

Evan! said:

I think I'm gonna brew in it this afternoon. It won't affect the beer, will it?

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Try a heavy concentration of starsan.
then use a scotch brite pad

I don't know how the oxidation would effect your brew

orfy said:

DO NOT USE OXYCLEAN OR SODA CRYSTAL WITH ALUMINIUM.

.

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What's soda crystal? bicarbonate of soda

http://www.soda-crystals.co.uk/

It costs around a tenth of Oxyclean.


Bi-carb of soda can be used for cleaning and polishing aluminium along with borax.

You're pot was going to oxidize eventually anyway, you just got it out of the way in one shot. I'd just scrub it a bit with a scotchbrite to get any loose powder off and then don't worry about it. You'd really have to keep a coat of wax on it between uses to stop the inevitable. Oxidation on aluminum is actually a built in protection mechanism in that the layer of oxidation seals the aluminum. The opposite happens with rust on steel. Once it starts, it spreads deeper and deeper.

You'll probably want to go to Stainless steel for your boil pot as soon as you can afford it. Because the ph of the wort could cause some of the aluminum to leach into your beer. There is a suspected link between aluminum an Alheimers.

Heavy emphasis on suspected as they don't really know. Just the prospects are enough to scare me off aluminum and into stainless.

Bobby_M said:

Oxidation on aluminum is actually a built in protection mechanism in that the layer of oxidation seals the aluminum.

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Exactly! Don't try to get your aluminum bright and shiny. That's when it can leach into your beer. You want that dull grey look! Don't worry about it - clean it good and put it to use.

nkonkie said:

You'll probably want to go to Stainless steel for your boil pot as soon as you can afford it. Because the ph of the wort could cause some of the aluminum to leach into your beer. There is a suspected link between aluminum an Alheimers.

Heavy emphasis on suspected as they don't really know. Just the prospects are enough to scare me off aluminum and into stainless.

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Yeah, the jury's out on that one. I've been through all that debate before. I've got aluminum, so's that's what I use. SS is expensive, and I still need a grain mill. If the scientific community can determine that aluminum is actually unhealthy, then I'll spring for it. Otherwise, from what understand, there's not nearly enough acid in the wort to really worry about leeching.

You'll probably want to go to Stainless steel for your boil pot as soon as you can afford it. Because the ph of the wort could cause some of the aluminum to leach into your beer. There is a suspected link between aluminum an Alzheimer's.

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you'll be just fine with the aluminum kettle. just don't scrub it shinny - leave it oxidized - it'll be fine. there is no conclusive proof on the alu/alz link and if you do a search of these forums and of the web in general - you can come to your own conclusions...however if alu is sooooo scary and you are even scared at the prospect of alu and alz being linked...don't inhale. aluminum is abundantly airborne...just thought you should know.

brewhead said:

you'll be just fine with the aluminum kettle. just don't scrub it shinny - leave it oxidized - it'll be fine. there is no conclusive proof on the alu/alz link and if you do a search of these forums and of the web in general - you can come to your own conclusions...however if alu is sooooo scary and you are even scared at the prospect of alu and alz being linked...don't inhale. aluminum is abundantly airborne...just thought you should know.

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Why take chances you don't have to take?

I'm sure I get plenty of heavy metals from the environment why should I ADD to it in order to save a few $. I can't take it with me and it won't do me any good if I'm too brain damaged to use or enjoy it.

They coat the inside of aluminum cans for a reason. One of the reasons is taste.
Taste is a major reason I brew my own beer.
The other reason could be to prevent potential lawsuits at some point down the road.

I want a healthy brain all my life and want to do everything within my power to keep it that way.

And you don't know who'll be fine and who won't be.

The only link between Aluminium & Alzheimer's is that they both begin with Al. It's proven bad science and was debunked LONG ago. You can continue to act as if Aluminium is a boogie man, but there is absolutely no science that backs up those claims.

yes why take chances? then i would suggest you abondon your desire to drink alcohol. why take chances.

even the alz org will tell you there isn't even a shred of evidence to support the link. lots of supposition - no conclusions.

as far as taste - i'll tell you what. i'll challenge that notion to a blind taste test and gurantee you that you can't tell the differance between a brew that came from a ss pot and a brew that came from my alu pot.

there are quite a few brewers in our club that have been using aluminum for years with no problems. we taste each other's beer at least once a month if not sooner during the month - i've yet to hear..hey this beer tastes like it was made in an aluminum kettle.

you are welcome to do as you wish with your beer. seriously. but having brewed on ss and in aluminum - and tasted a lot of beer brewed in both i'll tell you the taste issue is bogus.

and the alu/alz link is bogus as well

http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/chemicals/en/aluminium.pdf
http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/Facts_about_dementia/PDF/i_aluminium.pdf
http://byo.com/mrwizard/1019.html


Sources of aluminium
The main sources of environmental aluminium are:
• Food – many foods contain small amounts of aluminium.
• Packaging – food may come into contact with aluminium through packaging or using aluminium foil or trays for freezing, storing or cooking. However, the amount of aluminium added to food in this way is usually negligible.
• Pans – cooking in uncoated aluminium utensils can increase the amount of aluminium in certain foods such as fruits which are high in acid. Cooking foods in coated, non-stick or hard anodised aluminium pans adds virtually no aluminium to food.
• Medicines – many antacids used for treating indigestion contain large amounts of aluminium compounds but normally little of the aluminium
is absorbed.
• Water – aluminium is naturally present in some water and, in addition, aluminium sulphate is widely used in the treatment of public water
supplies. However, intake of aluminium from water is very small in comparison with other sources.
• Air – some aluminium from the air may enter the lungs as dust but this form is highly insoluble and hardly any reaches the rest of the body. Only a minute proportion of the aluminium we ingest from these various sources is absorbed by the body, and even this small fraction is usually excreted in the urine or harmlessly deposited in bone which acts as a ‘sink’ to remove aluminium. So effective are these mechanisms that it is estimated that the adult human body contains 30-50mg of aluminium – far less than the amount in a single antacid tablet!

The expert view on aluminium
There have been numerous conferences on aluminium and health ever since the idea that the metal might be a risk factor for Alzheimer’s disease was first proposed. The medical research community, international and government
regulatory agencies and the aluminium industry all review the evidence at frequent intervals. The overwhelming medical and scientific opinion is that the findings outlined above do not convincingly demonstrate a causal relationship between aluminium and Alzheimer’s disease, and that no useful medical or public health recommendations can be made, at least at present.
It has proved extremely difficult to devise studies which could resolve this problem one way or another. Alzheimer’s is a common disease with multiple causes, while aluminium is widepread in the environment and there are no
methods that allow us to measure an individual’s ‘body burden’
or lifetime exposure to this element. It is possible that suitable ‘transgenic’ animal models which develop the pathological features of Alzheimer’s disease in their brains will enable scientists to determine if such changes are accelerated or exacerbated by aluminium at levels which correspond to normal human exposure.​

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you decide


some things you shouldn't do with aluminum:

don't use casutic
don't use star san (my experience alone - nothing recommended from "the experts" ymmv)
don't scrub shinny

the natural patina you see when you kettle is empty is your friend. leave it alone. use mild dishdetergent and a wash cloth - that's all you need

The lastest scientific opinion changes like the wind. This next week the majority of opinion may change again.

Also stainless steel distributes heat more evenly than aluminum.

If there was no taste imparted from aluminum why would they bother with the added trouble and expense to coat the cans?

nkonkie said:

Also stainless steel distributes heat more evenly than aluminum.

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Again, not true - aluminum is much better in this regard. In fact, good stainless pots have an aluminum disc to help distribute heat and avoid hot spots. Stainless is actually a poor heat conductor

nkonkie said:

You'll probably want to go to Stainless steel for your boil pot as soon as you can afford it. Because the ph of the wort could cause some of the aluminum to leach into your beer. There is a suspected link between aluminum an Alheimers.

Heavy emphasis on suspected as they don't really know. Just the prospects are enough to scare me off aluminum and into stainless.

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First post here but I've seen this enough that I think I need to weigh in.

The link between aluminum and altzheimers is tenuous at best. However, the dose that could theoretically be possible from brewing in an aluminum kettle is orders of magnitude lower than anything that would cause a risk of adverse effects.

Take this example...

Maalox extra strength antiacid taken at the dose recommended by the manufacturer contains 8,000 mg of aluminum hydroxide DAILY. That is 8 grams of highly biologically available aluminum.

At an the high end, you might expect to leach approximately 1 or 2 mg of aluminum from your pot into your beer per boiling session. At 5 gallons per brew it would take the ingestion approximately 20 to 40,000 gallons of beer to equal the same aluminum dose from one day's recommended dose of an over-the-counter drug.

I have a stainless steel kettle but I don't think that I would limit my use of aluminum.

Great site by the way.

rdwj said:

Again, not true - aluminum is much better in this regard. In fact, good stainless pots have an aluminum disc to help distribute heat and avoid hot spots. Stainless is actually a poor heat conductor

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That's a good point. You are probably right about that.

nkonkie said:

Why take chances you don't have to take?

I'm sure I get plenty of heavy metals from the environment why should I ADD to it in order to save a few $. I can't take it with me and it won't do me any good if I'm too brain damaged to use or enjoy it.

They coat the inside of aluminum cans for a reason. One of the reasons is taste.
Taste is a major reason I brew my own beer.
The other reason could be to prevent potential lawsuits at some point down the road.

I want a healthy brain all my life and want to do everything within my power to keep it that way.

And you don't know who'll be fine and who won't be.

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People who say aluminum causes any adverse affects have no idea what their talking about. It's all conspericy scare tactics by the stanless steal complanies to increase sales. I've been brewing in an aluminum pot for years and I've had no problems with with with what was I talking about and where did I put my keys?

I prefer stainless steel, because I love my brain, and even the thought of something bad happening to it disturbs me greatly, alcohol consumption aside. It could be foolish, but it's worth it to me. And I don't take Maalox either.

I'll take tums or eat calcium and won't eat Rolaids or Malox for the same reason.

You can't convience someone of something they do not want to believe I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Just mention things I'm aware of. So people with open minds can decide for themselves.

This is from the Alhemiers Assoc.

The U.S. government's National Institute of Environmental Health Services says:
"Much research over the last decade has focused on the role of aluminum in the development of this disease. At this point, its role is still not clearly defined." Further, it says: "Epidemiological studies attempting to link AD with exposures in drinking water have been inconclusive and contradictory. Thus, the significance of increased aluminum intake with regard to onset of AD has not been determined."

So like I said earlier: Why take the chance to save a few $.

But it's your choice

nkonkie said:

I'll take tums or eat calcium and won't eat Rolaids or Malox for the same reason.

You can't convience someone of something they do not want to believe I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Just mention things I'm aware of. So people with open minds can decide for themselves.

This is from the Alhemiers Assoc.

The U.S. government's National Institute of Environmental Health Services says:
"Much research over the last decade has focused on the role of aluminum in the development of this disease. At this point, its role is still not clearly defined." Further, it says: "Epidemiological studies attempting to link AD with exposures in drinking water have been inconclusive and contradictory. Thus, the significance of increased aluminum intake with regard to onset of AD has not been determined."

So like I said earlier: Why take the chance to save a few $.

But it's your choice

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I'm not disputing that there may be a link. The problem here is scale. The dose of aluminum that you could potentially recieve from drinking beer brewed in aluminum is orders of magnitude lower than you get from background exposure to everyday items (including drinking water).

Everyone is certainly entitled to thier own opinion, and I felt that since I assess risk for a living (I assess risk to human health from exposure to toxic chemicals) and unfortunately know way more about this stuff than I should, it is worthwhile to point out the problems with the 'don't brew in aluminum because it's bad for you' argument. You would simply need to brew A LOT of beer to reach any potentially problematic dose of aluminum. At the quanitity that you would need to drink to reach that dose, aluminum would be the very least of your worries.

Ya pays your money and ya takes your chances.

So like I said earlier: Why take the chance to save a few $.

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well i'm not a risk assesment dude but i'll step out on a limb here and say that i bet you dollars to doughnuts your chanses of getting killed in a car accident far out weigh the off chance you might consume too much aluminum from brewing. but i bet you guys take that risk every day - even you oh so careful ppl.

as far as the taste issue - my challenge still stands

Hoo-boy, is this subject getting debated yet again?! This has been debated almost as much here as the 'bleach vs other sanitizers' argument!

Sometimes, it gets interesting.

And you do want the dark oxidation on the interior walls. You should see my aluminum HLT!

Rhoobarb party pooper let's slog it out again

it's got to at least reach page 8 this time

brewhead said:

Rhoobarb party pooper let's slog it out again

it's got to at least reach page 8 this time

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Then change the subject to this and watch the fur fly! It really gets interesting around page #3!

jjd said:

I'm not disputing that there may be a link. The problem here is scale. The dose of aluminum that you could potentially recieve from drinking beer brewed in aluminum is orders of magnitude lower than you get from background exposure to everyday items (including drinking water).

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It's like my dentist sez your exposure to this xray is less than you get from flying

BUT I tell him the effects are cummulative and so is your exposure to metals from the environment.

So why would I want more than I already get?

So why would I want more than I already get?

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do you tell your doc no thanks to xrays?

do you drive a car?

over your lifetime your chances of dying in a car wreck are 1 in 90 or 1 in about 6000 in a given year - that's hard data we know these figures. point to one case of death from alz caused by aluminum intake. go ahead...i'll stand by and drink my aluminum tainted beer that tastes like aluminum - like i'd stand for that

"The lastest scientific opinion changes like the wind."

No it doesn't ! The scientific community has been consistent on this for a long time.

And if aluminum is a contributor to anything, there are many sources that will need cleaning up. The amount of aluminum you would pick up from boiling in an aluminum pot is NEGLEGIBLE compared to other sources.

"Also stainless steel distributes heat more evenly than aluminum. "

No it doesn't. Most of the SS pots are about 1.5mm thick on the base. (60 thou). Most aluminum pots are 4mm, some are 6mm ! (nearly 1/4"!)

Just one point Evan, when you say there's not much acid in the wort.

Your full amount of wort IS acid.
It about how strong an acid it is, not how much.

brewman ! said:

"The lastest scientific opinion changes like the wind."

No it doesn't ! The scientific community has been consistent on this for a long time.

And if aluminum is a contributor to anything, there are many sources that will need cleaning up. The amount of aluminum you would pick up from boiling in an aluminum pot is NEGLEGIBLE compared to other sources.

"Also stainless steel distributes heat more evenly than aluminum. "

No it doesn't. Most of the SS pots are about 1.5mm thick on the base. (60 thou). Most aluminum pots are 4mm, some are 6mm ! (nearly 1/4"!)

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That is exactly correct. Aluminum is considered by USEPA as a hazardous material. However, it is only hazardous at concentrations at thousands to 10s of thousands of times greater than you would expect to get from drinking a beer brewed in aluminum. ALuminum is one of the most abundant elements on earth. You are exposed to it everywhere you go and everything you do. The amount that you could get from a brewpot is very small compared to your daily background exposure without even taking into consideration the aluminum you get from non-natural sources.

I would never be so presumptuous to tell people that they are not entitled to thier opinion, but in the short month that I have been lurking on this board I have seen this debate several times. I am just trying to provide accurate information to people new to this hobby who have legitimate questions. My profession allows me to provide this information on this very essoteric topic. Please make your own informed decision.

Now I have to rack a really nice porter into my secondary. Cheers!

Can I weigh in on this?

My chiropractor quotes a source that claims Alzheimer's will increase geometrically in the future. Vaccines (like the flu shot) contain preservatives like mercury and aluminum which is directly injected into the body.

The body does a very poor job of filtering metals out, so it collects and concentrates within the organs.

I haven't had a flu shot in years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

orfy said:

Just one point Evan, when you say there's not much acid in the wort.

Your full amount of wort IS acid.
It about how strong an acid it is, not how much.

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Yeah, what you said. I meant, there's not enough acidity.

BTW, while you guys put my mind at ease WRT whether or not this was unhealthy...I was still a little concerned about boiling my wort in a kettle that had any sort of oxidation residue that may have gotten into the brew. It smelled like rust, which makes sense, and I didn't want that, even if the gray coating is supposedly a good thing. When I scrubbed it with a brillo pad, you could see the gray crap pooling at the bottom, and I thought, if a little scrubbing took that much off, imagine what 60 minutes of boiling would do. So I took a precaution and soaked it in PBW for 30 mins. Cleaned her right up. She's not shiny or anything---still has a bit of gray---but nothing like before. So, there you go.

Feel free to jump on me about this too. If you are a Smart Alex don't expect a reply. I've learned my lesson about replying to jerks.


Cooking broccoli for 5 minutes in an aluminum pot with water that has a PH of near 7 (neutral) is one thing. Boiling wort or anything with an acidic or caustic PH for 1-2 hours is something entirely different.

As to the advise for Evan not to scurb his pots, why is Aluminum Oxide safer than Aluminum that has not been oxidized? (retorical question)

Once again I'm not trying to convince any of you aluminum pot heads, just trying to post info for the open minded.

nkonkie said:

Feel free to jump on me about this too. If you are a Smart Alex don't expect a reply. I've learned my lesson about replying to jerks.

I believe Aluminum is a man made metal & it is made from a substance call boxite.

It is not a natural occuring substance such as gold, silver, zinc, iron, manganese, magnesium, copper ect. So most if not all of the aluminum in the environment is from human activity.
Also aluminum is relatively new material and so too would be our experience with it's effects on the human body.

Cooking broccoli for 5 minutes in an aluminum pot with water that has a PH of near 7 (neutral) is one thing. Boiling wort or anything with an acidic or caustic PH for 1-2 hours is something entirely different.

As to the advise for Evan not to scurb his pots, why is Aluminum Oxide safer than Aluminum that has not been oxidized? (retorical question)

Once again I'm not trying to convince any of you aluminum pot heads, just trying to post info for the open minded.

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Wow, not sure if this was directed at me or not. However, this response is exactly the reason that I made the first post. When people look for an answer to a serious question and they are provided with misinformation they may make thier decisions based on the misinformation. As I've said, my profession provides some insight into this particular question that most people do not have.

The following is a copy/paste from the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR) entry for aluminum. I encourage you to read the entire document.

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts22.html

"What is aluminum?

Aluminum is the most abundant metal in the earth’s crust. It is always found combined with other elements such as oxygen, silicon, and fluorine. Aluminum as the metal is obtained from aluminum-containing minerals. Small amounts of aluminum can be found dissolved in water.

Aluminum metal is light in weight and silvery-white in appearance. Aluminum is used for beverage cans, pots and pans, airplanes, siding and roofing, and foil. Aluminum is often mixed with small amounts of other metals to form aluminum alloys, which are stronger and harder.

Aluminum compounds have many different uses, for example, as alums in water-treatment and alumina in abrasives and furnace linings. They are also found in consumer products such as antacids, astringents, buffered aspirin, food additives, and antiperspirants."

"How might I be exposed to aluminum?

* Virtually all food, water, air, and soil contain some aluminum.
* Eating small amounts of aluminum in food.
* Breathing higher levels of aluminum dust in workplace air.
* Living in areas where the air is dusty, where aluminum is mined or processed into aluminum metal, near certain hazardous waste sites, or where aluminum is naturally high.
* Eating substances containing high levels of aluminum (such as antacids) especially when eating or drinking citrus products at the same time.
* Children and adults may be exposed to small amounts of aluminum from vaccinations.
* Very little enters your body from aluminum cooking utensils."

Please tell me where I am being a 'Smart Alex'? I am, as you mentioned, just trying to provide info for the open-minded. Mine, however, is based in science.

This is a very important consideration for a new brewer. Do I need to spend the extra bucks on that stainless steel kettle or can I use my turkey fryer? If you feel I am being a jerk by providing acurate information rather than conjecture, I apologize, but that was not my intent.

jjd said:

Wow, not sure if this was directed at me or not. .

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Not directed at you. I don't have a problem with people who disagree with me.

It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable. And I certainlly don't have all the answers nor do I claim to.


Aluminum is one of the least toxic metals It however is not Non Toxic

http://www.scorecard.org/chemical-profiles/hazard-indicators.tcl?edf_substance_id=1344-28-1

more
I misspelled BAUXITE

alumina (əlū'mĭn&#601 or aluminum oxide, Al2O3, chemical compound with m.p. about 2,000°C and sp. gr. about 4.0.

It is insoluble in water and organic liquids and very slightly soluble in strong acids and alkalies.


Alumina occurs in two crystalline forms. Alpha alumina is composed of colorless hexagonal crystals with the properties given above; gamma alumina is composed of minute colorless cubic crystals with sp. gr. about 3.6 that are transformed to the alpha form at high temperatures. Alumina powder is formed by crushing crystalline alumina; it is white when pure. Alumina is widely distributed in nature. Combined with silica and other minerals it occurs in clays, feldspars, and micas. It is the major component of bauxite and occurs in an almost pure form as corundum. Alumina is commercially important. A major use is in the production of aluminum metal. It is also used for abrasives; corundum and emery are widely used, as are artificially prepared alumina abrasives. Trade names for alumina abrasives include Alundum and Aloxite. Alumina is also used in ceramics, in pigments, and in the manufacture of chemicals. Clays containing alumina are used in porcelain, pottery, and bricks. Pure alumina is used in making crucibles and other refractory apparatus. Hydrated alumina is used in mordant dyeing to make lake pigments; it is also used in glassmaking, in cosmetics, and in medicine as an antacid.

here's the web site for the above

http://www.answers.com/topic/aluminium-oxide

The important part to remember : very slightly soluble in strong acids and alkalies.

we are not talking about cooking collards here

I wouldn't use that pot again. If you are going to use it fill it up with water and boil. If you can see oil on the top of the water, dump out and scrub. I know someone that had to do this 13 times in order to get all of the oil out. Good luck

nkonkie said:

Not directed at you. I don't have a problem with people who disagree with me.

It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable


The important part to remember : very slightly soluble in strong acids and alkalies.

we are not talking about cooking collards here

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Whew, good.

And a point of clarification, we aren't talking about cooking collard greens but we aren't talking about strong acids either.

Wort pHs in the 5's are pretty weak acids and aluminum tends to begin to solubalize at pHs around 4.5 and increase to a point where solubility actually decreases at very strongly acidic conditions. Coke, served in aluminum cans, tends to have pHs at 3.0 or less.

Darn it, I'm starting to insert my work into my brewing. I can't have that. Time for a beer.

Cheers.

brewman ! said:

"The lastest scientific opinion changes like the wind."

No it doesn't ! The scientific community has been consistent on this for a long time.

"!)

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DDT first is was a Boon to manking then a bane now they are making the case that it's not so bad after all and we should bring it back

Burn injuries put butter on it no don't put butter on it put ice on it no don't put ice on it yes do put ice on it

Just as in food, presentation is an important part too. When people look at ugly oxidized aluminum pots of a brewer or the nice shiny looking stainless steel of another brewer who are they going to think is serious and who will they think brews in the bathtub. Who are they going to think brews in clean sanitary conditions and who will they think brews in nasty unsanitary conditions.

I could go on & on but I'm bored with this.