Why doesn’t beer come in PET plastic bottles?

Except at ball parks, why?

I'd guess cost

Likely cost but could be because packaging can hurt marketability.

Would you be more likely to buy an expensive premium craft beer that comes in a 6-pack of sexy looking glass bottles or in basic aluminum cans?

Can's make it look like a low quality beer...plastic would do the same thing.

Jayhem said:

Likely cost but could be because packaging can hurt marketability.

Would you be more likely to buy an expensive premium craft beer that comes in a 6-pack of sexy looking glass bottles or in basic aluminum cans?

Can's make it look like a low quality beer...plastic would do the same thing.

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This.

Bulk PET bottles aren't really that cost prohibitive.

What do you mean? Just about every mega brewery has plastic bottles.









You can find them at my grocery stores....especially in the summer for "beach enjoyment."

Most beer drinkers who prefer what the market calls "import" or "premium" beer have always come packaged in pop top glass bottles. Even twist cap glass bottles "cheapens" the packaging to many consumers and makes them wonder if the beer they just spend $10+ for a sixxer was worth the investment.

Revvy said:

What do you mean? Just about every mega brewery has plastic bottles.

You can find them at my grocery stores....especially in the summer for "beach enjoyment."

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I think the OP is maybe asking why there isn't a similar movement to bottle craft beer in PET like there is with canning these days.

Jayhem said:

Most beer drinkers who prefer what the market calls "import" or "premium" beer have always come packaged in pop top glass bottles. Even twist cap glass bottles "cheapens" the packaging to many consumers and makes them wonder if the beer they just spend $10+ for a sixxer was worth the investment.

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I would guess this as well. One of my friends who drinks a lot of craft beer was telling me about how he had a bad beer, and he started like this "It had a screw-top, which was my first sign that it was going to be bad...."

Also, yeah the BMCs do sell in plastic bottles sometimes. When my dad got started with his Mr. Beer, he used plastic Miller Light bottles.

PhelanKA7 said:

I think the OP is maybe asking why there isn't a similar movement to bottle craft beer in PET like there is with canning these days.

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I really love how folks read different things into the same 13 words.... He doesn't mention craft beer. Just beer....Anything else is an assumption.

Revvy said:

I really love how folks read different things into the same 13 words.... He doesn't mention craft beer. Just beer....Anything else is an assumption.

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That's why I said "I think"

Revvy said:

I really love how folks read different things into the same 13 words.... He doesn't mention craft beer. Just beer....Anything else is an assumption.

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I think the fact that this is a homebrewing forum leads many to assume he meant "craft beer".

When he mentioned "ball park" that got me thinking more along the lines of BMC.

Jayhem said:

Likely cost but could be because packaging can hurt marketability.

Would you be more likely to buy an expensive premium craft beer that comes in a 6-pack of sexy looking glass bottles or in basic aluminum cans?

Can's make it look like a low quality beer...plastic would do the same thing.

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I'd actually prefer cans to bottles...

Jayhem said:

I think the fact that this is a homebrewing forum leads many to assume he meant "craft beer".

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Really, why would you say that??? Actually if you get down to it, it's a higher probabilty that someone coming into homebrewing is coming from a bmc drinking background than a craft beer background, since quite simply more folks on this planet consume mass market brew than craft beer. If you look at markets like Canada (look at Craig of Craigtube) New Zealand and Australia, the reasons people homebrew are not because they're necessarily craft beer drinkers, but for economic ones. That's why I think it's rude to denigrate someone coming on here wanting to make a BMC type one beer, because not everyone came from a craft beer background like I did.

And assuming that everyone who homebrews is a craft brew drinker. I learned a long time ago not to assume anything.

In fact I bet if you look at the most sold beginner kits by Mr Beer, Cooper's, BB and all the other kit manufacturers they top sellers are those kits which are going to be in the closest approximation to a BMC beer, like the "Pseudo lager."

I think half the people I've taught brewing to were basic BMC drinkers. They gravitated to other styles later, but the first brews I help many folks with were of the above mentioned bmc-esque beers.

But yeah, ball park leads me to think mass market beer as well.

The Brass Brewery uses PET bottles (here in Australia at least)

Let's put it to a vote...

HollisBT said:

I'd actually prefer cans to bottles...

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Me too if I wasn't still collecting bottles. Much easier/safer to carry around, and haul to recycle, etc. I also like the taste of the aluminum on my lips better. I have several hundred, and started kegging, but I'm still collecting them. I think this perception that craft beer needs to be in bottles is slowing changing. In Michigan here, there are several microbreweries that are selling in cans.

Hmm, perhaps it is the caps that look like they belong on a coke bottle

reverendj1 said:

I think this perception that craft beer needs to be in bottles is slowing changing. In Michigan here, there are several microbreweries that are selling in cans.

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Yeah and if you look at some of the treads on here about canning you'll see that it STILL is a battle to shift folks perceptions about cans. Even now that craft beer in cans has really started to roll, we still get at least 1 thread every quarter where someone is slamming canned beers and "just can't believe their precious craft beer is being canned."

Possibly the question is 'why don't many beers come in PET bottles'?

I have no answer. I would guess it's all market research findings related to perceived quality. Same for wine.

Aluminum is the most efficient from a recycling perspective, and personally I prefer glass, then can, then plastic if I'm drinking from the packaging. Although style matters too: an American Light Lager somehow just tastes 'right' from a can.

With my renewed interest in bottling (doing lotsa small batches), I've been considering PET quarts. Somehow I just can't pull the trigger though. I wish 2.5-3 gal cornie keg prices weren't so ridiculous these days! Shoulda stocked up in the '90s.

I'd LOVE a home aluminum can setup!

hughmac said:

I'd LOVE a home aluminum can setup!

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Me too! I've considered buying the Bud/Bud Lights in the aluminum bottles and a bench capper, since that would be the closest us homebrewers could get.

I'm kinda glad they only served bottled beer in PET @ the Huntridge. a Nazi smoked me in the back of the head with a full bottle the 2nd time I got to see The Misfits. and let me tell y'all, he was one real tough badass: twice my size, surrounded by 20 of same sized buddies, and threw it from across the room.

as for the can vs bottle argument, I don't mind cans anymore. I used to hate them, but there's great beer inside. only problem I can find with cans is I can't package 5 gallons of my own stout or pale in them.

hughmac said:

I have no answer. I would guess it's all market research findings related to perceived quality. Same for wine.

A

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I think this is the big one. Although plastic has improved over the last decade, especially after all the bpa recalls which really is giving a rise to Pet, there still is a big perceptual problem about plastic vs glass (and aluminum now) all you have to do is look at all the stupid glass vs plastic arguments on here. Even though the megabeer corps and softdrink manufacturers wouldn't be putting their precious nectars into plastic if there were still problems with it, I mean seriously is AH/INBEV really going to risk their assets and their reputation by putting their product into something "inferior?" You know they did a ton of testing and put a lot of money into working with the plastics industry before they'd roll out their beer in them.

Im glad I sparked debate over the subcontext of my short question. I meant beer as in, beer, as in, all beer in general. However I can see the idea of marketability so it would tend to be more applied to BMC.

I haven’t really noticed any plastic BMC or others beer being sold in grocery stores (maybe that proves the marketability point), but maybe I haven’t looked hard enough. My thoughts were that a lot of places don’t allow glass bottles (ball park, beaches, football tailgates, pools, etc) and I thought plastic bottles were actually cheaper when mass produced (Coke and Pepsi don’t mass market glass bottles anymore for a reason).

Honestly, it was mostly just a thought that popped into my head as I bought a Diet Coke out of the vending machine.

I’ve bottled some homebrew in used 2 liters before, it’s definitely a great way to take your beer to places where you don’t care about reclaiming the bottle, such as at Penn State tailgates (where theyve actually banned glass, and kegs. You can however serve beer out of a 5 gallon water cooler, but that might be a story for another thread).

reverendj1 said:

I think this perception that craft beer needs to be in bottles is slowing changing.

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Just wish I could have found some of this before the 500 back in May:



IMS lets you bring in outside drinks, provided they're not in glass containers.

kpr121 said:

I

Honestly, it was mostly just a thought that popped into my head as I bought a Diet Coke out of the vending machine.

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Bet you lived in Japan, not dontja....

I'm going to suggest recycle-ability... You can't just wash out a can or plastic bottle the way you can a re-usable glass bottle.
In this order, it's:
Reduce
Reuse
Recycle

Mmmmmmm Torpedo!

Tell me you wouldnt buy a PET 2 liter of that stuff!

Revvy said:

Bet you lived in Japan, not dontja....

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is that sake in a vending machine?!? I'm gonna put one of those in my basement!

acidrain said:

I'm going to suggest recycle-ability... You can't just wash out a can or plastic bottle the way you can a re-usable glass bottle.
In this order, it's:
Reduce
Reuse
Recycle

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This may have been true when nearly all breweries used returnable bottles (and might be the reason everyone is so comfortable with glass now), but I would question whether glass is actually more recyclable than plastic/aluminum in these days.

If BMC could get people to accept drinking their beer out of plastic** and still sell the beer for $23 a case, you bet your ass they would.

**Assuming plastic is cheaper than glass, which with Coke and Pepsi’s current distribution would lead us to believe is true.

acidrain said:

I'm going to suggest recycle-ability... You can't just wash out a can or plastic bottle the way you can a re-usable glass bottle.
In this order, it's:
Reduce
Reuse
Recycle

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With PET bottles,you blast them clean as you can inside. Then soak'em with some PBW inside. Then blast with water again. Also,you drill out the center of a 2L pop bottle cap to fit over the stalk of your vinator to be able to pump them full of sanitizer. The opening on the PET bottles is bigger than pop tops.

Originally Posted by hughmac View Post
I'd LOVE a home aluminum can setup!
Me too! I've considered buying the Bud/Bud Lights in the aluminum bottles and a bench capper, since that would be the closest us homebrewers could get.

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Working at Starr Hill taught me to have a lot of respect for canned beer. However, the canning process itself is a genuine PITA from hell. Takes about 3.5 hours to do one pallet of about 70 cases as opposed to 10 to 15 minutes for the same amount of bottles. And this is with the same set up that Oskar Blues uses. Might just be Starr Hills particular way of doing it but when I think about the time and effort it took to package craft beer in cans I want to pull my eyes out... then I buy a sixer of Dale's Pale and forget all about it

Cans may be superior to bottles in the sense that they are impervious to light and oxygen, but they are all lined with a BPA containing plastic liner to keep the contents of the can from corroding the can itself. Plastics still often contain bpa, and if they do not the replacements may not be any better. In order to be truly safe from chemicals contained in plastics, I would recommend only using glass or stainless fermentors and glass or stainless bottles. Here is a link describing some test results of the replacements for plastics with bpa, http://www.rodale.com/bpa-replacements. I will not tell anyone how to do things, do them how you like. I for one will try to remain as safe as possible and use glass and stainless as much as possible.

I would imagine it has to do with the cost associated with handling and recycling. Not sure about else where but here in Ontario Canada they pay 10c on the bottle for returns, allows for a steady reusable supply, no return on plastic. The cost and ease (labor cost) of capping glass is much less I would imagine, PET has to be screwed on. Cleaning and disinfecting, plastic can be porous and retains o flavours where glass doesn't and glass can be autoclaved for sterilization, PET can't and they would therefore have to rely on chemical alternatives which would have higher error rates, potentially harmful to consumer, more of a chance of affecting the product.

Personally, and I have only brewed a couple batches but half my bottles being PET and the other half being a mix of glass ez-cap and pop offs I have noticed a distinct difference in the amount of time it takes for the beer to carbonate in the PET vs glass. Most of my beers have been fully carbonated in a week to a week and a half where the PET tend to take at least 4-5 days longer to reach the same level and retain a sweetness as if it is the yeast that is being affected and not the gas pressure/retention.

Revvy said:

Bet you lived in Japan, not dontja....

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Dude, I was JUST about to mention the awesomeness of Japanese vending machines.

おいしい！
Oishī!

hughmac said:

Aluminum is the most efficient from a recycling perspective, and personally I prefer glass, then can, then plastic if I'm drinking from the packaging. Although style matters too: an American Light Lager somehow just tastes 'right' from a can.

With my renewed interest in bottling (doing lotsa small batches), I've been considering PET quarts. Somehow I just can't pull the trigger though. I wish 2.5-3 gal cornie keg prices weren't so ridiculous these days! Shoulda stocked up in the '90s.

I'd LOVE a home aluminum can setup!

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I was looking at these two options:

http://www.aluminumbottles.com/resources/ElementalSpec_ATK31.pdf

I am almost positive I could get the price down to a $2 or less on these with a bulk order..

How many do you think would be interested..? Enough for 3 batchs would be less than $200 and no capping, etc..

Also as for plastic bottles :

http://www.airseacontainers.com/16oz-amber-boston-round-plastic-bottle.html#page=page-1

I just hate to cap, and I never drink just one or two beers so 16oz to 34oz (1L) bottles would work great.

BTW anyone reuse Miller Lite 16oz al bottles..? with the screw caps..?

See a few threads now that mentioned the Bud ones, but not the Miller ones.