Lambic Primary vs Secondary Question

I did a 5 gallon lambic in July and it's sitting in primary since then.

I scaled this recipe I got on my previous post to this forum

3.5 lbs pilsner malt
2 lbs unmalted wheat
mash 150* for 60'
.5 oz herzbrucker hops at 60'
chill and pitch lambic blend.

More here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/newbie-411915/

While I understand why the secondary needs to take 5-6 months to ferment the fruits, what's the benefit of having a long primary for a lambic ? I tend to approach this logically but the conclusion is not working for me.

Thanks!
Q

Sour blends generally have Sacc Yeast, Brett, Lacto, and Pedio, occasionally Sherry flor and acetobacteria, and maybe other bugs.

Sacc yeast builds its colony in about a day and has completed its work in about a week; creates alcohol and esters.

Brett is slow off the mark, and therefore doesn't get to use the O2 to multiply, so builds its colony anaerobically. It probably doesn't get to its maximum population until about 8 months. It feeds on the dead yeast and converts the yeast esters to different flavors, and works on some of the more complex sugars. The Brett will continue developing flavors for up to 18 months or more.

In an alcoholic environment the Lacto and Pedio can take a couple of years to fully develop their colony's. They convert some of the residual sugars to acetic acid, and it can take a long time to get decently sour, but I think this produces a less complex beer.

Hope this helps.

To do a quick sour, you either need a huge population of Lacto and Pedio at the start, or sour it before adding the yeast.

See that makes a lot of sense. I was not aware that the lambic yeast is not a regular yeast. #newbie

So basically I need to make sure the yeast and bateria reaches a certain critical mass to feed it with fruits.

Do I need to move it to secondary at all since the dead yeast is going to be consumed ?

Sacc and Lacto act quickly, Brett and Pedio take time. If you only wait a few months, you will have very little influence coming from the brett/pedio side and the beer basically tastes like a berliner weisse.

On a homebrew scale, you want to wait at least 9 months before adding fruit. Best results might be brewing in the early spring, aging through summer, fruiting in the late fall, and bottling in the winter. This would allow sacc/lacto the spring to do its work, the pedio a summer to work, and then give Brett the fall to clean everything up. Brett continues working indefinitely, so the longer you wait the more complexity will develop.

Once you fruit, that is the end of it, so make sure your base beer has developed the flavor you want before fruiting. You will have a burst of fermentation from the new sugars, and then you let the fruit macerate for a couple 2-3 months, and then bottle. It is neither beneficial nor harmful to remove the beer off the traub for the fruiting stage.

(slight correction from Calder's post; lacto and pedio do not create acetic acid, acetobacter does that.)

levifunk said:

(slight correction from Calder's post; lacto and pedio do not create acetic acid, acetobacter does that.)

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are you certain about that? many sources state that lacto can produce acetic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus_brevis#History
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7975904
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC92530/
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/wine/lactic-acid-bacteria-and-wine-spoilage

pedio generally does not, at least not the strain we use in brewing, but:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pediococcus_acidilactici

I'm not a microbiologist, so I don't understand the technicalities of all this, but my understanding is that, while there are some strains of lacto that can produce acetic acid in certain environments, the lacto strains common in brewing do not produce acetic acid or at least not in quantities detectable by humans.

Some more information from Smokinghole here:
http://babblebelt.com/newboard/thread.html?tid=1108752780&th=1377719001&pg=1&tpg=1&add=1

I'd venture to guess its something like only heterofermentative strains in an aerobic environment produce acetic acid, but again, I don't know.

I do "know" that for our purposes, as homebrewers, we should not be fearful of acetic acid production from the addition of lacto/pedio. Maybe I'm wrong?

Specifically in lambic, acetic acid is not produced in discernible amounts, so for the purposes of this thread and speaking on the general fermentation schedule of lambics, the lacto/pedio create lactic acid.

levifunk said:

Once you fruit, that is the end of it, so make sure your base beer has developed the flavor you want before fruiting.

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Can you expand on this statement? i don't think I have ever heard of this before. Are you saying once you rack on fruit, the bugs quit eating?

jhay_x7 said:

Can you expand on this statement? i don't think I have ever heard of this before. Are you saying once you rack on fruit, the bugs quit eating?

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Not that they quit, but that they will have a fresh source of simple sugars (fructose). Sacc probably picks up again as well as Brett and they ferment those out. After the sugars are gone, the brett will continue its slow work, but you are going to bottle the beer before any noticeable development from the brett occurs (above and beyond what was there prior to fruiting).

So thats my point, wait until your base is ready before fruiting. Its not like you are going to leave it on fruit for a year.

levifunk said:

I do "know" that for our purposes, as homebrewers, we should not be fearful of acetic acid production from the addition of lacto/pedio. Maybe I'm wrong?

Specifically in lambic, acetic acid is not produced in discernible amounts, so for the purposes of this thread and speaking on the general fermentation schedule of lambics, the lacto/pedio create lactic acid.

Click to expand...

Just keep out the oxygen and acetic shouldn't be an issue.

levifunk said:

Sacc and Lacto act quickly, Brett and Pedio take time.

slight correction from Calder's post; lacto and pedio do not create acetic acid, acetobacter does that.

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Sorry ...... I meant to say lactic acid. I was just trying to explain to Q why a sour takes a long time and will continue to change over a couple of years.

You really don't want much acetic acid (vinegar), but want more of the softer lactic acid. Acetic acid is mainly produced by acetobacteria in the presence of O2, while lactic acid is the product of Lacto and pedio working on the sugars.

I disagree with the statement that Lacto acts quickly. It does if there is no alcohol or hops, but in the presence of both of those, it can be very slow.

before I pitch in the fruts should I taste the beer. What if tastes like vinegar, should I still put in the fruits ?

Calder said:

Sorry ...... I meant to say lactic acid. I was just trying to explain to Q why a sour takes a long time and will continue to change over a couple of years.

You really don't want much acetic acid (vinegar), but want more of the softer lactic acid. Acetic acid is mainly produced by acetobacteria in the presence of O2, while lactic acid is the product of Lacto and pedio working on the sugars.

I disagree with the statement that Lacto acts quickly. It does if there is no alcohol or hops, but in the presence of both of those, it can be very slow.

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theQ said:

I did a 5 gallon lambic in July and it's sitting in primary since then.

I scaled this recipe I got on my previous post to this forum

3.5 lbs pilsner malt
2 lbs unmalted wheat
mash 150* for 60'
.5 oz herzbrucker hops at 60'
chill and pitch lambic blend.

More here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/newbie-411915/

While I understand why the secondary needs to take 5-6 months to ferment the fruits, what's the benefit of having a long primary for a lambic ? I tend to approach this logically but the conclusion is not working for me.

Thanks!
Q

Click to expand...

Did you pitch the fruit with the yeast at day 1?

Lambics are tradionaly kept on the cake thruout primary wheras flanders styles are racked to secondarys.

Calder said:

I disagree with the statement that Lacto acts quickly. It does if there is no alcohol or hops, but in the presence of both of those, it can be very slow.

Click to expand...

There are multiple known strains of lacto, while most cannot there are a couple that can ferment in high alcohol/IBU solutions

theQ said:

before I pitch in the fruts should I taste the beer. What if tastes like vinegar, should I still put in the fruits ?

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If it tastes like vinegar unfortunetly, acetobactor has teken over and it will not be salvagable. It does make GREAT salad dressign though!!

theQ said:

before I pitch in the fruts should I taste the beer. What if tastes like vinegar, should I still put in the fruits ?

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Every time I do anything with any beer I take a gravity sample, and drink the sample. I normally use a turkey baster to get the sample. That way I know what is going on.

If it tastes like vinegar, it is gone.

I didn't pitch the fruits yet. I will do that in 1-2 months! Do I move it to the secondary or just pitch the fruits into the primary. I did point I don't see a reason to rake into secondary since it pretty clear ?

I always taste my beers when transferring it to secondary or to the keg/bottles so this won't be an exception.

So I've tasted it. First impression was vinegar but after sampling it hmm it's sour with just a hint if vinegar.

I am adding the fruits, will this ferment again ? Aggressively, I have a 6.5galon, so I won't move it ?

I use different wine thief, I thought I heard these bugs are pretty mean and could infect the equipment, anyone cares to expand that thought ?

Thanks!
Q

theQ said:

So I've tasted it. First impression was vinegar but after sampling it hmm it's sour with just a hint if vinegar.

I am adding the fruits, will this ferment again ? Aggressively, I have a 6.5galon, so I won't move it ?

I use different wine thief, I thought I heard these bugs are pretty mean and could infect the equipment, anyone cares to expand that thought ?

Click to expand...

Many, many years ago, when I first started brewing, l remember having a couple of batches that had 'just a hint of vinegar'. I bottled them thinking they would be ok .......... well, after a few of them, I realized I was just kidding myself. They were awful, and I ended up tossing the rest. These were not sours, just pale ales.

You might want to re-think about investing additional time and money into this. That vinegar flavor is not going to go away no matter what you do to the beer and it could be undrinkable. You might be better off just bottling what you have and start again.

Calder said:

Many, many years ago, when I first started brewing, l remember having a couple of batches that had 'just a hint of vinegar'. I bottled them thinking they would be ok .......... well, after a few of them, I realized I was just kidding myself. They were awful, and I ended up tossing the rest.

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I've taken the stance that one should never give up on beer. If your batch tastes bad, follow the process:
* Step 1: Chill the bottle for 48 hours.
* Step 2: Pour and taste.
* Step 3: If it still tastes bad, let it sit in the cellar for 30 more days.
* Step 4: Repeat until either (a) the beer tastes good, or (b) it's all gone.

You might want to re-think about investing additional time and money into this.

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Oh, but I do agree with this. Don't throw more money at it.

What are you using as your fermenter? For aging sours you shouldn't use plastic buckets, they let too much oxygen in which will create that vinegar taste. However, I bottled a Flemish red a few months ago and it has a hint of vinegar in the flavor profile, which I really like.

I use a carboy. Glass. I went ahead an added 4 lbs of frozen raspberries. Will update you all in 6 months. It's at 65f,in the basement.

I used the wyeast limbic, it was tight air wise, what could trigger the vinegar aroma?

Anyone used this yeast, can you describe the aroma after 6 months?

Then why would one want to toss 5 gallons of good vinegar - assuming that I would get that. Bottle it and give it to friends for salad.

BTW it did attenuate to almost 1.000

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I use WLP655 Belgian Sour Mix, it has all four of the strains for sour ales. As for waiting months in primary before racking onto fruit, I primary mine for a month and then rack it onto the fruit and the WLP655 where it will sit for at least a year. My first one was absolutely wonderful, not sour, but very tart. I rebrewed the exact same beer nearly 2 months ago and did it exactly the same way. I have another going right now that I'm using a different primary yeast on and will rack it onto Black Cherries near the end of this month that I expect to leave it for 18 months.

theQ said:

Anyone used this yeast, can you describe the aroma after 6 months?

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Yep. I brewed a lambic with it on July 7 and pulled a sample today, so almost exactly 6 months. I got a lot of fruity aroma. Something along the lines of peach, cherry, pineapple, and a very little funk. Also some citrusy smelling sourness in the nose, not vinegar tho. It tasted similar but not as strong as the aroma would suggest.

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I got none of those aromas. It isn't bad, just sour with a hit of vinegar. Will see in 6 months. If this goes south would be the first one that goes bad ... I'd be more upset for loosing the 4lbs of raspberries. I could have put them in a saison instead.

Oh well , we shall see.

I took the question to ask this (and I would also like to know):

what is the benefit/pros/cons/etc of racking the primary into a secondary? Why not just leave it in the primary as yeast autolysis is not a concern with sours as the bugs eat the dead yeast? Does racking it to a secondary stop a certain flavor or reaction from occurring? I have a 60 gallon solera innoculated with 3763 Roeselare that I intend to leave on the yeast cake for a solid year (then drain the yeast cake via conical dump valve, drain 15 gallons of beer and add 15 gallons of new beer along with a package of 3763 as an underpitch of fresh Sacc yeast).

FredTheNuke said:

what is the benefit/pros/cons/etc of racking the primary into a secondary? Why not just leave it in the primary as yeast autolysis is not a concern with sours as the bugs eat the dead yeast? Does racking it to a secondary stop a certain flavor or reaction from occurring?

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i don't have proof of this, but seems to me that trub = food for the bugs, so more trub = better fed bugs = more acidity. i imagine that the impact is more souring, but who knows how much.

FredTheNuke said:

I have a 60 gallon solera innoculated with 3763 Roeselare that I intend to leave on the yeast cake for a solid year (then drain the yeast cake via conical dump valve, drain 15 gallons of beer and add 15 gallons of new beer along with a package of 3763 as an underpitch of fresh Sacc yeast).

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i wouldn't bother pitching more Roeselare after a year. you won't need the bugs in the Roeselare since the year-old brew will have lots of them already. what you will need is more sacch, so why not pitch what you need. a single pouch of sacch for 15 new gallons is still a huge underpitch. i believe that the sacch in Roeselare is 3522 (Ardennes).

So maybe 2 packs of 3522 would be a good annual pitch. I do want to underpitch but not too much (granted the initial pitch into the 60 gallons was only 6 smak packs of 3763 - it took almost 5 days to begin bubbling).

as for the secondary I am figuring a 6 gallon carboy with a 5 gallon batch in it and leave it alone for 6-12 months for most sour brews is a good formula. I'm up in the air about what to do if I plan on adding some cherry juice concentrate (68 brix) near the end - maybe just pour it in and see what happens.

sweetcell said:

i don't have proof of this, but seems to me that trub = food for the bugs, so more trub = better fed bugs = more acidity. i imagine that the impact is more souring, but who knows how much.

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I think this is true. Look up Brewing Radio potcast, hope to point you into the right direction with that.