I'm drawing up an English Barleywine recipe right now and the yeasts I'm looking at (Wyeast 1318, 1028) have alcohol tolerances a few percentage points below my recipe's calculated abv. Can this be gotten around by just pitching a metric ton of yeast (which I'm doing regardless of strain anyways), or do I have to reformulate to get within the recommended range for the yeast.
Barleywine Yeast Issues
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Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
Why not just use 1728 instead?? I used that in my wee heavy and it went to 12.5% ABV...
sptaylor70
Well-Known Member
There are things you can do to stretch your yeast. Overpitch (maybe 3x), oxygenate your wort, add some yeast nutrient.
You can also choose a different yeast. 1084 Irish and 1728 Scottish both have a slightly higher tolerance, and Irish should have an English character. They'll dramatically alter the character of the beer, but also 1762 Belgian Abbey 2 and 3787 Trappist HG.
You can also choose a different yeast. 1084 Irish and 1728 Scottish both have a slightly higher tolerance, and Irish should have an English character. They'll dramatically alter the character of the beer, but also 1762 Belgian Abbey 2 and 3787 Trappist HG.
Which would be great if I wanted to make a wee heavy. Alas this will be my first high gravity batch and until I can consistently nail down the basics like hitting my gravity, I'm brewing conservative as conservative can be. More importantly, I want a fruitier, more ester-forward yeast, which 1728 is not.
You can also hold off on some additions. That is, if you're shooting for a 1.100 beer, get a 1.080 beer started first and then add concentrated wort (boiled down from brew day, extract based, whatever) partway through fermentation. Add enough to get your expected gravity and volume. This process usually gets you much more out of your yeast.
That said, 1028 is pretty beastly. I haven't used 1318 for a really big beer yet, but I've heard of others having good results. Remember, those numbers aren't set in stone, they're just when the yeast typically start having some trouble. Treat your yeast well, and they'll outperform whatever those numbers say every time.
Almost forgot: when 1728 gets a bit warm, or when it's in a big beer, I get some dark stone fruit flavors from it. Complements old ales, stouts, porters, and the like very nicely. It still may not be what you're looking for, but I thought I'd throw that out there. 1968 also performs well for many in barleywine sized ales.
That said, 1028 is pretty beastly. I haven't used 1318 for a really big beer yet, but I've heard of others having good results. Remember, those numbers aren't set in stone, they're just when the yeast typically start having some trouble. Treat your yeast well, and they'll outperform whatever those numbers say every time.
Almost forgot: when 1728 gets a bit warm, or when it's in a big beer, I get some dark stone fruit flavors from it. Complements old ales, stouts, porters, and the like very nicely. It still may not be what you're looking for, but I thought I'd throw that out there. 1968 also performs well for many in barleywine sized ales.
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
Which would be great if I wanted to make a wee heavy. Alas this will be my first high gravity batch and until I can consistently nail down the basics like hitting my gravity, I'm brewing conservative as conservative can be. More importantly, I want a fruitier, more ester-forward yeast, which 1728 is not.
Had you actually posted that last line in your OP, I probably wouldn't have even posted. Withholding information only hurts your chances of getting the assistance you want.
What's the highest ABV beer you've brewed so far? Do you have the hardware (and knowledge) to make starters? With a proper sized starter, using pure O2 to oxygenate the wort, adding yeast nutrients, and a few other techniques you can typically get a few more ABV points from a yeast strain. Just remember, fermentation temperature is going to be extremely important here too.
I mentioned the wee heavy since that's what I used 1728 in. You're not locked into JUST using it in wee heavies (or other Scottish ales). IF you really want to get the highest ABV from the batch, you could always try WLP099.
I would use it at the low end of the temperature range. So, keep it <65F for the duration. Going too warm with that strain can produce unwanted flavors. Of course, it's probably not a good idea for a novice. 
Which would be great if I wanted to make a wee heavy. Alas this will be my first high gravity batch and until I can consistently nail down the basics like hitting my gravity, I'm brewing conservative as conservative can be. More importantly, I want a fruitier, more ester-forward yeast, which 1728 is not.
1728 is a really versatile yeast. High alcohol tolerance, and can exhibit a wide range of flavors. When fermented at the low it of it's (wide) temperature range, it can be clean to slightly smoky. When fermented on the upper end, it does in fact impart some fruity tones. I'm not sure if it's going to be estery enough for you, but it does work.
Had you actually posted that last line in your OP, I probably wouldn't have even posted. Withholding information only hurts your chances of getting the assistance you want.
What's the highest ABV beer you've brewed so far? Do you have the hardware (and knowledge) to make starters? With a proper sized starter, using pure O2 to oxygenate the wort, adding yeast nutrients, and a few other techniques you can typically get a few more ABV points from a yeast strain. Just remember, fermentation temperature is going to be extremely important here too.
I mentioned the wee heavy since that's what I used 1728 in. You're not locked into JUST using it in wee heavies (or other Scottish ales). IF you really want to get the highest ABV from the batch, you could always try WLP099.
Sorry for the withholding information/snark. The highest I've done is probably about 7, though I do have the equipment and knowledge for starters and usually use Beersmith/Jamil for size calculations. I use a chest freezer with a Johnson A419 for fermentation, though I don't have the knowledge/equipment to do anything with gas be in oxygenation or carbonation. Thanks for the tip on nutrients. Do you just add them late in the boil the same way you do whirlfloc or is there anything fancier/more sophisiticated. The reason I'm looking at 1318 is because I want the fruitiness. What's your experience with the profile of WLP099, from a brewer with 7 batches under his belt to a brewer with far more.
TheZymurgist
Well-Known Member
Nutrients are added at the end of the boil, anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes, just to sanitize.
What's your OG going to be? I only ask because my higher OG beers had trouble attenuating before I started using pure O2. It's a must-have with big beers IMO.
I agree with Golddiggie on WLP099. I've used it a few times and have had issues with Diacetyl, but it sure can power through some big beers.
Right now I'm looking at 1.12-1.13. I've been fiddling around with the amount of base malt, and since I'm new to this and don't have the whole always hitting gravity thing down yet, I'm really not sure how well I can trust what my OG will be.
TheZymurgist
Well-Known Member
I would definitely look in to getting an oxygen system. I'll bow to others experience if they say differently, but I'd be worried about under attenuation with a gravity that high.
sptaylor70
Well-Known Member
A little yeast nutrient should help fine. I should have said "aerate" rather than "oxygenate" earlier. Aquarium pump, tubing, and airstone and you should be set. And two packages of 1084 Irish (higher alcohol tolerance and you still get English fruity esters) should be adequate in a 3 L starter.
Another way to approach this would be to split your primary into two halves and pitch one half with Irish and the other with S-04. Recombine them in a secondary and the Irish can clean up whatever leftovers you have. You save money on liquid yeast, have a smaller starter (1.5 L with one package), and get two different English fruit profiles.
Another way to approach this would be to split your primary into two halves and pitch one half with Irish and the other with S-04. Recombine them in a secondary and the Irish can clean up whatever leftovers you have. You save money on liquid yeast, have a smaller starter (1.5 L with one package), and get two different English fruit profiles.
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
1. Use yeastcalc to figure out the starter size.
2. Using an aquarium pump will give you no more than 8ppm of O2. Far too little for a BIG brew. Normal parameters are 1ppm per degree plato (or brix since they're close enough). Since 8 brix comes out to about 1.030 SG, you'll won't be doing the yeast any more favors over the hernia inducing shake method.
3. I cannot, and will not, endorse splitting a batch into two halves. IME, you pick the yeast that will perform as needed, and give the flavors desired.
4. Doing stepped starters will get you far more yeast, for less money spent. Use the calculator at yeastcalc.com and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. Chances are, you can do two steps (with fairly fresh yeast) that are under 1.5L each (or for the largest).
I would advise not exceeding the listed capability of the yeast you want to use for this batch. You can always experiment with higher ABV batches once you get some more experience. Learning how to get the maximum from the yeast is a step that should NOT be skipped.
sptaylor70
Well-Known Member
And we have a stalemate based on philosophy of advice. I see it as "let's try to help the new guy accomplish what he wants to do." You (Golddiggie) seem to see it as "let's make sure the new guy does it the right way."
So, yono1986, you've seen pretty much everything. Do what you want. Post how it turns out.
So, yono1986, you've seen pretty much everything. Do what you want. Post how it turns out.
SpeedYellow
Well-Known Member
Presumably that means you shake your fermenter. That's probably pretty sketchy on a big beer like this. If you use an aquarium pump, you'll want to re-aerate after 12-24 hours. If you use o2 you might get it done in one shot, but I'm not sure since I haven't memorized the data on oxygen saturation on high gravity wort (see, e.g. the oxygen article on www.danstaryeast.com), and yeast requirements.yono1986 said:
I use stovetop since I'm still in an apartment, so I let the cooled wort splash into the primary from 3 feet in the air. Haven't had any problems with that yet, but I also haven't brewed anything above 7%
SpeedYellow
Well-Known Member
Well that should make re-aerating 12-24 hrs later interesting.
But seriously, that splash 'n dash strategy isn't a good one for high-OG beers like this.
But seriously, that splash 'n dash strategy isn't a good one for high-OG beers like this.
forstmeister
Well-Known Member
I did a 10.5% English barleywine last winter using Wyeast English Ale II I think. It had a pretty high tolerance and got me down to 1.020 in a few weeks. I use a diffuser at the end of my transfer hose to increase aeration.
TheZymurgist
Well-Known Member
Can those two statements not be the same? Maybe I want my Corrola to do 0 to 60 in under 8 seconds, sure I can take the seats out and find other ways to lighten it, or even add a chip to increase horsepower, but without a turbo charger, I'm not going to accomplish my goal.
I think it's the same thing here, too. We also want this guy to achieve his goal. We can give him advice on what to do with his current equipment, which we have, but with the caveat that it might not work as well as it could. That's where the turbo charger (oxygen system) comes in.
Look into WLP099 its pretty fruit ester.forward and will take your gravity without issue. Ive used it as a primary strain a few times and like how the beers.came out
yeah, be careful when software tells you your OG will be that high, especially if only using base malts (no adjuncts like sugar). as your OG rises, efficiency will fall. not all software take that loss of efficiency at high gravities into consideration.
for my setup, to get above 1.100 i need to use sugars, or a really long boil to concentrate the wort, or both. no way i can pull it off using base malts only and a 60 min boil (unless i used first runnings only, maybe).
Thanks for the heads up. I'm using Beersmith 2.0 and doing a 120 minute boil. I guess I should have a few pounds of DME on hand to be safe.
SpeedYellow
Well-Known Member
Good point sweetcell. When I'm over 1.100, my 74% efficiency becomes more like 60%.
kingwood-kid
Well-Known Member
I used 1318 on a barleywine that went from 1.120 to 1.031. It was delicious, but still too sweet. I added some WLP006 I had laying around to see if I could get it to drop a little further. I haven't checked the gravity yet--be patient, it's only been four months since I added it--but a krausen formed quickly, which told me that the 006 was doing what I hoped. You don't have to use 006, of course. Any yeast that's hardier and hungrier than the original strain will get the job done, so some US-05 or notty or whatever's laying around will work fine.
