Help with water analysis for Zagreb.

So, I'll be getting a more detailed report at a later time. Have to write and request it. But for the time being, here are the numbers I have:

Residual chlorine: .23 mg/l
pH: 7.36
nitrate 9.3 mg/l
chloride: 10.8 mg/l
sulfate: 28.5 mg/l
fluorid: 105 µg/l
sodium: 6.7 mg/l
potassium: 2.3 mg/l
iron: .2 µg/l
manganese: .4 µg/l
total hardness: 20 german degrees of hardness

That last one is calculated using this calculator which I put in the other thread as having:

calcium: 142.94 mg/l
calcium carbonate: 356.96 mg/l

Link to calculator:

Cactus2000: Converter for hardness of water

And those last ones are causing me concern. Reading up on it a bit and it sounds like this water is mostly appropriate for dark beers and not at all appropriate for hoppy beers. Which is not good for me at all. What's the easiest way to deal with this? Will this precipitate out with a boil? Maybe I should just find a good bottled water here. Thoughts on this water?

Any links, information or ideas are greatly appreciated.

You can dilute with distilled or RO water to bring hardness and mineral concentrations down.

No such luck from the looks of it. I just spent an hour or more driving around to 4 different mega stores with massive water sections. And not one of them had either distilled or RO water. It's looking like spring water might be my only option. But the thing is, it looks like the water, even the spring water, in this entire area is really hard water. Must be a lot of chalk or something in the soil here.

They refer on their labels to hydrogencarbonate (HCO3-), which when I look it up online says it's bicarbonate. And most of them are in the 300-450 range on that. Ouch.

But I found two possible candidates.

One, Vira Stolna Voda from Rijeka, has these numbers:

Ca: 60.8
Mg: 6.5
Na: 2.29
K: .16
HCO3-: 146
SO42: 3.1
Cl: 2.59

Dry residue at 180 degrees C: 134 mg/l

That looks like my first choice.

The other, Sveti Rok, has these numbers:

Ca: 47.6
Mg: 9.9
Na: 1.2
K: .3
SO4: 2.3
Cl: 1.7
Flouride: .02
HCO3-: 189.1

Dry residue at 180 degrees C: 150.2 mg/l.

Wow, no distilled water in Croatia... duly noted. I'll bet everyone's clothes irons are all clogged up!

Either one of those water profiles would be fine to use for the whole brew. I like the 1st one better. Depending on what kind of mash pH you get from that water, you may want to do an acid rest... particularly for pale beers.

Well, maybe it exists. But I'll have to ask around. These stores I went to were giant warehouse type places though and didn't see any at those.

They sell all sorts of cleaners for removing hard water buildup in washing machines and such. As for irons, dunno.

MattHollingsworth said:

total hardness: 20 german degrees of hardness

That last one is calculated using this calculator which I put in the other thread as having:

calcium: 142.94 mg/l
calcium carbonate: 356.96 mg/l

Link to calculator:

Cactus2000: Converter for hardness of water

Click to expand...

Total hardness sums your permanent hardness (calcium) and temporary hardness (usually bicarbonate). So you need to know the ratio of those two which then allows you to calculate your residual alkalinity, and that is the number for calculations on what beer styles you will do well with, and what you need to add for PH adjustments in the mash. So you don't have 145 ppm CA and 356 ppm bicarbonate, instead it is a mix of the two.

conpewter said:

Total hardness sums your permanent hardness (calcium) and temporary hardness (usually bicarbonate). So you need to know the ratio of those two which then allows you to calculate your residual alkalinity, and that is the number for calculations on what beer styles you will do well with, and what you need to add for PH adjustments in the mash. So you don't have 145 ppm CA and 356 ppm bicarbonate, instead it is a mix of the two.

Click to expand...

So then if I have 20 German Degrees of Hardness and it lists my CaCO3
mg/l as 356.96, then *that* number, the 356.96, is the sum of the calcium and bicarbonate?

We called them today and they said the calcium was around 100 for my area. BUT, we need to write them and request a more in depth report as the one online is just a basic summary. We'll write them in the next few days and await that report. But if the calcium is indeed around 100, then that leaves the bicarbonate at 256 or so. If this IS the case, I think I can boil off some of that. But according to an equation in Dave Miller's book, he states that when boiling off bicarbonate:

"boiling will remove all but 30-40 ppm of carbonate-bicarbonate; at the same time it will remove 3 ppm of calcium for every 5 ppm of carbonate."

In addition he points out that this is not 100% efficient and likely more calcium would be required in one example he gives. Wondering if perhaps I should analyze this (once i have the full report) and see about adding calcium before boiling to remove.

We head to the sea next week for three weeks, so likely that report will be here when we get back. Meanwhile, reading everything I can my hands on. I have old books by Papazian, Miller, Noonan and George Fix. So leafing through those and reading more online.

Thanks guys.

Sounds like you are on a better track now. Get the more detailed report and then you can get deeper into water analysis. The spreadsheet at the bottom of this page of Palmer's book has been invaluable to me.

How to Brew - By John Palmer - Residual Alkalinity and Mash pH

Thanks for the links and help.

Some more info for anyone following:

From here:

http://www.keystonehomebrew.com/bjcpclass/Water.pdf

Page 16: "Total water hardness is the measure of the bicarbonate, calcium and magnesium ions..."

And more info in that link.

From Dave Miller answering hard water question, this:

"For estimation purposes, figure that for every 5 ppm of carbonate you remove you also remove 3 ppm of calcium. In your case, assuming you aerate the water thoroughly before boiling, you can precipitate ~125 ppm of bicarbonate, leaving ~35 ppm in the water. At the same time you would reduce the calcium content by about 80 ppm."

Link:

BT - Troubleshooter: Water Hardness, Dextrin Malt, Malt Shelf Life, and Careers in Brewing

And a Google book link on hard water:

Hard Water

Okely dokely. Found where to find distilled water. They sell it at gas stations here and at this store that has insect poison, paint and other chemicals for cleaning and such, called "Kemoboja". Probably can find it at some larger stores too if I look further, which I will. But anyway, once I get the full water report I can dilute this down to get a bicarbonate level that I can use for hoppy, pale beers. Likely I'll do some stouts and such with the harder water too, but I wouldn't want to be limited to just those kinds of beers.

So, one step further along on the process for Croatian brewing.

Matt; translating it to useful homebrewing data:

chloride: 11 ppm
sulfate: 28 ppm
sodium: 7 ppm

total hardness: 20 dH = 357 as CaCO3

you need more: alkalinity, Ca and Mg levels.

Ca and Mg you can estimate from total hardness as CaCO3 from equation:
(Ca (ppm)/20 + Mg (ppm)/12.1) x 50 = Total Hardness as CaCO3
assuming, there is 3-4 times less Mg comparing to Ca

Alkalinity you can measure at home, with aquarium test for temporary hardness (KH). I think it is pretty high, since you have low levels of Cl and SO4 anions, you should have plenty of HCO3.

Yes, boiling will help wit high alkalinity

Thanks Piotr!

Poland, eh? My Mom's Grandparents on he Mom's side came to America from Poznan.

Glad to be helpful

MattHollingsworth said:

No such luck from the looks of it. I just spent an hour or more driving around to 4 different mega stores with massive water sections. And not one of them had either distilled or RO water. It's looking like spring water might be my only option. But the thing is, it looks like the water, even the spring water, in this entire area is really hard water. Must be a lot of chalk or something in the soil here.

They refer on their labels to hydrogencarbonate (HCO3-), which when I look it up online says it's bicarbonate. And most of them are in the 300-450 range on that. Ouch.

But I found two possible candidates.

One, Vira Stolna Voda from Rijeka, has these numbers:

Ca: 60.8
Mg: 6.5
Na: 2.29
K: .16
HCO3-: 146
SO42: 3.1
Cl: 2.59

Dry residue at 180 degrees C: 134 mg/l

That looks like my first choice.

The other, Sveti Rok, has these numbers:

Ca: 47.6
Mg: 9.9
Na: 1.2
K: .3
SO4: 2.3
Cl: 1.7
Flouride: .02
HCO3-: 189.1

Dry residue at 180 degrees C: 150.2 mg/l.

Click to expand...

xd Cant find distilled water you can get it on every gas station even.Go to konzum or any other shop and ask for "destilirana voda" and they will give it to you!!

beer_master said:

xd Cant find distilled water you can get it on every gas station even.Go to konzum or any other shop and ask for "destilirana voda" and they will give it to you!!

Click to expand...

Found it months ago. Thanks. I get it at Ipercoop at King Cross.

You brewing here???