Serving Tanks and Fermenters at a Brewpub

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NigeltheBold

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I'm writing up a business plan for a brewpub with a 10 bbl brewery. I'm trying to figure out the best way to go about storing the beer after it has been fermented. I've heard jacketed serving tanks are really nice, but they're also expensive. I've also heard kegging the beer can be a good way to go if you want to save some money/space.

We plan on having five or six beers on tap at a time, and we're estimating that we'll sell around 500 barrels a year (maybe not the first year). How many fermenters do you recommend? How many serving tanks/kegs do you recommend?

I'm just trying to get some different opinions on the topic...
 
You can use sankes for condition and serving, i.e., bright tanks.

As for fermentors, I bet you could transfer most of your beer out of the primary after a week. Once the pipeline has started, you can keep up with your estimate of 500 bbls with a batch a week so you might be able to get away with 1 or 2 10 bbl capacity fermentors. I think I'd go with 3 to have an extra one on hand. It would be very handy to have a few smaller fermenters to work on special batches where you don't plan on needing 20 kegs.

It is going to be difficult to get stocked up for opening day. You might consider only starting with 2 or 3 high selling beers and then introducing more options and seasonal beers within the first few months of opening.

You can also ferment in sankes but I don't think you'll be very consistent by splitting a batch up 20 times.

Don't forget about the food. You need really good food. Beer won't keep most people there all night but if you can get them to sit and eat for an hour you can sell a lot of beer.
 
Build a cold room, and use single wall bright/serving tanks.Their cheaper than jacketed, and alot less work than kegging 20 kegs at a time vs. transfering 10 BBLs at once.
 
Build a cold room, and use single wall bright/serving tanks.Their cheaper than jacketed, and alot less work than kegging 20 kegs at a time vs. transfering 10 BBLs at once.

I'm in the same boat. Space is limited though so I'm looking at a ~5 bbl brewhouse with 10 bbl unitanks and single walled brights. Question for you; if I plan on serving six beers how many brights would you recommend? I've heard it's good to have one extra (ie 7 brights)? Is that necessary/a good idea?
 
Actually, I keep 8to9 beers on tap all year, and I have a 5 bbl brewhouse with only five- 5BBL uni-tanks and 4- 5BBL single-walled brights, and 30- 1/2 BBL kegs. We are a brewpub/Rest. with in-house sales only, incl. growlers. Average annual production is 400 BBLs, but it can be a challenge at times. If your going to be in-house only, What is your expected annual production? If around 500 BBLs, I would probably go with 6 brights and 20-30+ 1/2 BBL sanke kegs, so you can keg off brights when they get low enough and push a new batch in. This is how you can have more than 6+ beers on tap with just 6 brights, it just takes alot more keg cleaning, filling, juggling,and wrestling than having, 10 bright tanks, but also takes less space and a whole lot less of cash$$$. If you go this route, I would put a 10 tap tower in at least, so you have extra lines to dispense the kegged off brights. This way you can serve 8-10+ different styles with 6 bright tanks. I hope that made some sense!! If you want to bull s**t some more, let me know, I will PM you my cell#. Cheers!!!
 
That actually makes perfect sense and is greatly appreciated! I can see how that kinda setup will absolutely help increase my capacity while keeping floorspace to a minimum (and, as you said, saving some ca$h!). I'm shooting for ~500 bbls annually, but will have to see what's realistic with my space limitations AND what the actual demand is in my marketplace (Brooklyn, NY). I'd love to pick your brain sometime, but let me just ask a few more questions on here so that the thread/info is available for anyone else that's interested to see. First, do you have a good source for kegs that you'd recommend? Also, I've never actually seen it, how is the connection from the serving tank to the draft system? Is there an adapter from the tank's outlet that hooks up to a sankey coupler so that you can easily switch from the serving tank to kegged beer? Thanks again!!
 
I’m just curious how you carbonate this much beer, 5BBL? Thanks

Bright/serving tanks have a fitting for a carbonation stone (under the level of the beer). You pressurize the tank and blast it with CO2, checking the level with a device made by a company called Zham & Nagel. If you're under you keep going, if you're over you bleed off. Kinda like the shake n' bake technique some homebrewers use on corny kegs. I've only done 50 and 100 bbl batches and those usually take around an hour or so. Smaller volumes would take less time I imagine..

http://zahmnagel.com/Products/SERIES1000/tabid/60/Default.aspx
 
Id appreciate if the talk stayed public here, this is good information for those of us who are dreamers!
 
Not specifically related to your question, but an idea for your business plan:

Make a batch for one month only and have a first tap night/party with live music (if allowed). You can bring back favorites the same time every year or if it is popular enough you can add it to your regular lineup. Just brew what you think you will go through in a month of what ever you are trying. Then you can have a special monthly event and test beers on paying customers. If you run out of the beer before the month is over, no big deal. Everyone knows that this is a special small batch beer and it is only available while supplies last.

I know at least one brew pizzeria and brew restaurant (second location) do this and have great success, you might need to check/change the name if it is trademarked. Their First Tap sells for an extra $0.50-$1.00 per glass.

Just an idea to think over.
 
First, do you have a good source for kegs that you'd recommend? Also, I've never actually seen it, how is the connection from the serving tank to the draft system? Is there an adapter from the tank's outlet that hooks up to a sankey coupler so that you can easily switch from the serving tank to kegged beer? Thanks again!!

I would go with used kegs, their always for sale in the classified's on ProBrewer.com: An Online Resource Serving The Beer Industry. You could buy new kegs, but they run around 160-180$ no matter who you get them from. Leasing kegs from MicroStar is probably out of the question too, unless you plan on being a 2000+ BBL/annual producton brewery, I don't think they deal with small breweries.

We connect to our serving tanks with barbed Tri-clamp ferrules like these ones, Hose Barb Adaptor - Tri-clamp® - Fittings & Valves - Tri-clamp® - Fittings and Valves
 
Is there an adapter from the tank's outlet that hooks up to a sankey coupler so that you can easily switch from the serving tank to kegged beer? Thanks again!![/QUOTE]

You could probably use s/s quick disconnects, but I would leave the lines dedicated to each tank, and have the additional lines dedicated to each sanke coupler with its own secondary CO2 regulator. This way, when you keg off a near empty server, you can easily hook up that keg to a sanke coupler.Then clean the tank and the line, and transfer a different style into that tank to hook-up. You will be doing this repetitive cycle over & over again with each tank. I do have a few tanks that i dedicate to my faster moving styles. When I keg these tanks off, I have to un-tighten the hose clamp, and pull off the fitting, and connect it to the sanke coupler, I also have an extra CO2 line coming off the secondary regulator for that tank that I hook to that sanke coupler. Or you can make a pig-tail that hooks to the ferrule's that are on your beer & CO2 lines, Hope that helps. Cheers!!
 
Definitely helps. Thanks very much!! I think I'll take your advice and have separate lines for the brights and sankeys. Sounds much easier (for the bartenders too).

A couple more questions, when you have time:
Who made your brewhouse and would you recommend them?

Is your system steam heated, direct-fired, or electric and what would be your preference? I'd definitely like to go with steam, but not sure if I have room for a boiler (working with a very small space here)..

It doesn't look like it from your avatar photo, but I'll ask just in case, does your mash/lauter tun have rakes or do you think that's overkill on a brewhouse that size?

Is there anything you wish you could change about your current setup?

Thanks again, brother!
 
These are probably too small for you, but perfect for the brewer going pro but wanting to start out small. I have seen these twice before. 80 gallon corny kegs. They have a gas in and a liquid out, and a dip tube just like a conventional corny keg. I saw 12 or so at a scrapyard that I frequent. They would have gone for cheap, but at the time I never saw the potential in them for small breweries, so I did not really consider them. I actually had one of the yard hands plasma cut the top out of one so I could have it welded into the top of a sanke to use as a fermenter. These are much thicker than a standard 5 gal keg. If I ever see some again at the yard, I will snatch them up. I recently saw three of these for sale at a restaurant equipment auction, they all went for over 500 each though. They also have larger disconnects than a standard corny does. Here are the ones from the auction.
bigcorny.jpg
 
What's the cost benefit to having 4-5 brite tanks vs just one or two and just kegging as batches are carbed up? How much is a jacketed 10bbl bright compared to a cooler that will hold 20 - 1/2bbl sankeys? I would think that 2 brite beer tanks and 100 - 1/2 bbl kegs woule take up less space because of how you can stack the kegs. You can put 9 on one pallet and stack them 2-3 high (if you have a fork lift of course), plus you can put them anywhere you want. The brite tanks will likely stay where they are. I know the brite tanks are less work cause you'll just stick a looped pump on them to CIP/sani before filling. If you get a keg cleaner you just stick the keg in there and walk away doing other things until the keg is done.

I'm just thinking out loud based on how one of the breweries near me operates.

Plus I always think of cooperage costs in triple what you really need. However when you are only doing internal sales you probably only need to buy 25% more than you should need to operate. It's not like you have kegs sitting at a distributor, sitting at a retail location, and then all the ones you need in house at a given time to operate.
 
These are probably too small for you, but perfect for the brewer going pro but wanting to start out small. I have seen these twice before. 80 gallon corny kegs. They have a gas in and a liquid out, and a dip tube just like a conventional corny keg. I saw 12 or so at a scrapyard that I frequent. They would have gone for cheap, but at the time I never saw the potential in them for small breweries, so I did not really consider them. I actually had one of the yard hands plasma cut the top out of one so I could have it welded into the top of a sanke to use as a fermenter. These are much thicker than a standard 5 gal keg. If I ever see some again at the yard, I will snatch them up. I recently saw three of these for sale at a restaurant equipment auction, they all went for over 500 each though. They also have larger disconnects than a standard corny does. Here are the ones from the auction.
bigcorny.jpg

Those are sweet! If there was a good source for them I'd definitely consider those guys as an option. I'm looking at ~$5-6k for each serving tank. That's new and much bigger of course, but $500! I don't imagine they're set up for CIP, but there also small enough I don't imagine it would be too much hassle anyways.
 
What's the cost benefit to having 4-5 brite tanks vs just one or two and just kegging as batches are carbed up? How much is a jacketed 10bbl bright compared to a cooler that will hold 20 - 1/2bbl sankeys? I would think that 2 brite beer tanks and 100 - 1/2 bbl kegs woule take up less space because of how you can stack the kegs. You can put 9 on one pallet and stack them 2-3 high (if you have a fork lift of course), plus you can put them anywhere you want. The brite tanks will likely stay where they are. I know the brite tanks are less work cause you'll just stick a looped pump on them to CIP/sani before filling. If you get a keg cleaner you just stick the keg in there and walk away doing other things until the keg is done.

I'm just thinking out loud based on how one of the breweries near me operates.

Plus I always think of cooperage costs in triple what you really need. However when you are only doing internal sales you probably only need to buy 25% more than you should need to operate. It's not like you have kegs sitting at a distributor, sitting at a retail location, and then all the ones you need in house at a given time to operate.

Point well taken, but I'm not sure that's the best way to go with my situation.

As far as the cost benefit is concerned, I imagine that would be measured mostly in labor and space. Filling a bright tank is quick and easy. Kegging off an entire bright tank takes a lot more time and effort. And, at least in my situation (limited space - I'll be working in a basement), a forklift is not an option and manhandling all those kegs is no fun (I've worked a kegging line before…). Also, with my floorspace restrictions, cold room space is going to be very limited too so cold storing lots of kegs is not an option...

Keg washers, even the multi-station "semi-auto" models actually work pretty quickly (eg up to 30 kegs/hour) and so still require some time and attention (ie loading/unloading all the kegs).

I'm absolutely going to keg some beer as Brewerforlife has suggested, sounds like an excellent way to expand capacity, but I will get as many BTs as I can fit/afford too.
 
Definitely helps. Thanks very much!! I think I'll take your advice and have separate lines for the brights and sankeys. Sounds much easier (for the bartenders too).

A couple more questions, when you have time:
Who made your brewhouse and would you recommend them?

Is your system steam heated, direct-fired, or electric and what would be your preference? I'd definitely like to go with steam, but not sure if I have room for a boiler (working with a very small space here)..

It doesn't look like it from your avatar photo, but I'll ask just in case, does your mash/lauter tun have rakes or do you think that's overkill on a brewhouse that size?

Is there anything you wish you could change about your current setup?

Thanks again, brother!

I have a 5 BBL direct-fired Bohemian Brewery Importers Mono-Bloc. This company has been out of business for over a decade, but there's still alot of their stuff out ther for sale on the used market.
As far as manufactuer's go, if were talking new stuff, it depends if you want better made N.America/European vs. cheaper made Chinese imported stuff. All the standard companies are pretty reliable, J.V Northwest, D.M.E, Newland's, Criveller, Premier Stainless, Applied Beverage. I think the big difference between them all, is Cost, Quality, Location, and good Customer Service. My friends just bought a 3-BBL system from Rob @ Premier Stainless about 4-5 months ago, and everything is going smoothly, with estmated delivery time of this Feb-6-2012. Sweet!!

If were talking used?? I would follow Probrewer.com classifed section almost daily, I usually do! There's a 5BBL brewhouse for sale right now for $32000, that i was looking at earlier. You could also follow some of the smaller fabricator/Used brokers, like, Jason@ Ager Tank. Vince Cottone@ Soundbrew.com, Frank Ma@ Pacific Breweing Tech., Alan Ditky@ ABT. We have bought two new Chinese 5BBL ferm. from Alan Ditky at A.B.T back in 2006 for $4650 retro-fitted a piece. Their not as good quality as are Bohemian tanks, but do the job. Gotta Go!! Will answer some more questions later, when I have more time. Cheers!!!

BBL 5 Bohemian Mono-Bloc.JPG


5BBL Chinese Fermenters.JPG


Bohemian 5BBL Fermenters.JPG
 
I would go with used kegs, their always for sale in the classified's on ProBrewer.com: An Online Resource Serving The Beer Industry. You could buy new kegs, but they run around 160-180$ no matter who you get them from. Leasing kegs from MicroStar is probably out of the question too, unless you plan on being a 2000+ BBL/annual producton brewery, I don't think they deal with small breweries.

We connect to our serving tanks with barbed Tri-clamp ferrules like these ones, Hose Barb Adaptor - Tri-clamp® - Fittings & Valves - Tri-clamp® - Fittings and Valves

I hate barbs, they always leak.
 
Is your system steam heated, direct-fired, or electric and what would be your preference? I'd definitely like to go with steam, but not sure if I have room for a boiler (working with a very small space here)..

It doesn't look like it from your avatar photo, but I'll ask just in case, does your mash/lauter tun have rakes or do you think that's overkill on a brewhouse that size?

Is there anything you wish you could change about your current setup?

Thanks again, brother!



I have worked on both steam and direct-fired brewhouse's. I work on the direct-fired Bohemian 5BBL for the last 16+ years, but I also worked at another brewpub for a few years at the same time I was working here. So I got to play with 2 different system's at the same time. By the way they have a 10BBL Bohemian Steam jacketed Mono-Bloc. All three vessel's are steam jacketed, the kettle/whirlpool,mash/lauter tun, and hot liquor tank. I hardly ever used the steam on the mash tun, as I mainly was doing single infusion mashes. If you use steam in the mash tun, you must have motorized rakes to keep it stirring, to prevent scorching and over & un-even heating of the mash.
I would say that steam is way more efficient and quicker, but also cost's way more. You also have a boiler to fire up, that has boiler certificates, inspection's,etc. I believe steam better suit's larger brewpub's and production
brewery's that brew everyday. Smaller brewer's that are 10BBL & under that may not brew for a few day's at time's would probably be better off with direct-fire. At the other brewery, I would only brew about 3-4 times a month, which everytime I brewed I would have to fire-up a ice-cold boiler, and wait a while to get her up to temp., just too have steam. Seem's like alot of energy to use at this small level!! At my level, it may be better to just have to turn on the 200,000-450,000 B.t.u burner and shut it off when your done. the drawback is that you have only 1 heatable vessel to heat water with, unless you have a seperate hot water source. In short, a steam system cost's more$$$ and use's a little more space.


As far as the next questions, I can answer them both with same answer. If I could go back in time. We would have paid the extra $$5000 for the grain handling system, which comprised of a motorized rake, flex-auger that connect's to malt mill, and grist hydrator. No more sore arms, canoe paddles, and dust in the air!! This is the number one thing that I would have done differently. It takes me 20-30 minutes to mash in 350 .lbs by hand on the 5BBL system, it only took me 15 minutes to mash 700 .lbs on the 10BBL system with rake's and auger. I would say get this option if the manufacturer offer's it on a smaller system, which some do not, even if cost a few extra buck's$$$ I hope that made some sense!! Cheer's!!!
 
I hate barbs, they always leak.

They are more expensive$$$. By the way which sanitary fitting's were you referring too? Do you have a link to some of these???

I never have a leaking problem with barb's, just the hose get's wore on the end. So just cut it off and re-attach. Not a problem. Cheers!!!
 
Bright/serving tanks have a fitting for a carbonation stone (under the level of the beer). You pressurize the tank and blast it with CO2, checking the level with a device made by a company called Zham & Nagel. If you're under you keep going, if you're over you bleed off. Kinda like the shake n' bake technique some homebrewers use on corny kegs. I've only done 50 and 100 bbl batches and those usually take around an hour or so. Smaller volumes would take less time I imagine..

http://zahmnagel.com/Products/SERIES1000/tabid/60/Default.aspx

wat

Seriously though, that's incredible if true. I don't know why it seems implausible, but just ... so much beer... so fast.. :D
 
These are probably too small for you, but perfect for the brewer going pro but wanting to start out small. I have seen these twice before. 80 gallon corny kegs. They have a gas in and a liquid out, and a dip tube just like a conventional corny keg.
bigcorny.jpg
I have one of those tanks with a corny lid and gas in and no dip tube or place to put one.
The liquid in on top and out on the bottom use large flow quick disconnects at a steep price of $85 and $103 each.

WhirlpoolSaniTank-1.jpg



Cheers,
ClaudiusB
 
They are more expensive$$$. By the way which sanitary fitting's were you referring too? Do you have a link to some of these???

I never have a leaking problem with barb's, just the hose get's wore on the end. So just cut it off and re-attach. Not a problem. Cheers!!!

Sanitary fitting = tri-clamp fitting. Tri-clover is one main companies that makes them and a lot of people just call them tri-clamp.
 
I just read this whole thread and came to the conclusion.
Serving tanks for a brew pub = Kegging on our level
Kegging for a brew pub = Bottling for a homebrewer.

Go for the serving tanks!
 
If you're only dealing with a small number of kegs since you're just filling with brite tank remnants, what do you use for keg cleaning and sanitizing?

I'm in the same boat as the original poster and any thoughts on the process are helpful.
 
A relatively new alternative to brite tanks is a serving beer tank with a bag liner. The bag liner is unique because it totally eliminates any need for cleaning.

Also, you don't have to pressurize the vessel with CO2 so the beer stays fresh far longer. An air compressor pumps air into the tank and pushes out the beer.

Check out this case study on a new craft brewery making use of these serving beer tanks. They share their experiences on how the tank has affected their operation.
 

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