(AG) Berliner Weisse

I have Wyeast 5335 in my fridge and want to make a nice fall sour. I am going to use a clean fermenting yeast with this, because I don't want the banana, clove or peanut in my beer. Most likely I will do up 15 gallons just because 5 seems so small. If I don't like it, who cares. It will use less malt for 15gallons than my normal 5 gallon IPA. Anyways, onto the recipe.

Madroner Weisse

15 gal batch

OG 1.035ish / 1.002ish / 2SRM / 4 IBU

13lbs American Two Row
5lbs Wheat
1lb wheat berries

an ounce of hop pellets
1 Whirlifloc Tablet

S-05 yeast
Wyeast 5335 Lacto Culture

Mash at 150 for an hour, sparge and boil for 15 minutes or so. Then chill and ferment around 63 for a month. Who knows how this will work out, I have seen a couple other recipes and whatnot, but you have to try it for yourself to really understand how it works.

From what I understand the unmalted wheat will add a little bit extra stuff that the Lacto can chew on for bit, I am not an extreme wheat fan, which is why I am aiming for ~30% instead of the 50% that I read in a book. As you can see, I am not going for classic, rather a base that is to my taste and then soured.

Any thoughts, let me know but otherwise I will do this guy up on Monday I think.

I assume you mean Wyeast #4335...

You're correct, it's certainly not a classic Berliner Weisse style. I wouldn't call it a Berliner Weisse. You might think about making a big starter a couple of weeks in advance for the the lacto culture (keep it warm). When you have everything ready for pitching the yeast, give the lacto a head start before you pitch the ale yeast.

Wyeast 5335

I heard though that it used to be called 4335 and that Promash or some other software called it 4335.

Although it isn't a traditional Berliner Weisse, there isn't really another beer style that is similar that is using the recipe that I am putting up. That said, I know that there are some other people that have brewed up this style and maybe they could give me some input.

Thanks for the info though.

My mistake, I've been brewin so much Berliner, I had the Lactobacillus Delbrueckii (Wyeast Labs #4335) on my mind.

No worries, any advice that you have with regards to the recipe other than the yeast and lacto?

No, your recipe looks fine to me for what you're trying to brew. I get set in my ways sometime. I still use German pilsener & wheat for a base.

When I first started brewing Berliner Weisse style early last year. I used the Wyeast VSS strain and it turned out excellent. Now I've been doing it the more traditional way using
Wyeast Lacto Delbrueckii - Wyeast - High Gravity

I suppose I'm just a traditionalist at heart...

have you ever tried to do up a sour mash? I could see myself attempting this at a later date

I've done quite a few sour mashes over the years. It started when I was trying to brew a Gose style without all the proper ingredients. I still enjoy doing it sometimes when my wife gives me the push...she really likes it and she doesn't normally like beer.

It can get funky, but the longer you wait, the better it gets.

How long do you sour? When do you add your sour mash? I have done some reading up on it, but in the end it seems to me like it could work and be fairly simple as long as you pay attention to it.

I Mash some 2-row pale malt at 150 °F (or anywhere in the saccharification range) for about 15 minutes. Stir some crushed 2-row -- fresh grain, not the stuff in the mash -- into cold or room temperature water. Stir this cold mush into the mash until the temperature is 120 °F. Hold sour mash at this temperature overnight. Skim the top of the sour mash (especially if there's obviously some growth on top) and stir all or part of the sour mash into the main mash of the beer.

You can leave it longer than overnight, but the longer you leave it, the funkier it gets. I've went up to 48 hours but prefer somewhere between 12-24 hours

I accidentally left my sparged grains out overnight and through the heat of the next day. Awful! Don't do that. Smells like curdled milk.

On a happy note, I will be making up my Lacto starter this weekend and then brewing in the next week to get this Madroner Weisse going. Depending on how long it takes to get to the right amount of sour, I will attempt it again in the near future with a sour mash.

So about to make up this guy, I am going to make the starter on Friday and brew Monday or Tuesday. Here is an email I got back from Wyeast:

I would make a starter with the 5335. 2L of 1.020 sterile wort. Add the 5335 to the wort, incubate at as close to 90oF as possible for about 5 days. This can then be used in the 15 gallons.

Click to expand...

So I am jumping the gun a little brewing on Monday or Tuesday, but in the end I will have a soured beer. I am excited because I will sparge this off and bring up to "boil" as much as my kettle will hold and then put the rest into the fermentor and then combine the two and let sit out overnight, then pitch the lacto the next day and the yeast later that day.

Woo hoo!

PS... brewed up a "fake" version of this beer with acidulated malt and no lacto culture. It is in the fermenter. I love spending $30 on ten gallons of beer! It has a touch of sour, but nowhere near what I was hoping for yet...yet. It needs to get rid of the sugar so that I can taste the sour more, but currently it is at day one of fermentation.

Mashed in at 153*, a little higher than I wanted but hey, that's what you get for not paying full attention. The recipe is this,

5lbs American Two Row
5lbs Belgian Pilsner Malt
2.5lbs White Wheat

1 oz Cascade @15min.

Bring to a boil, hop and chill. Chill to 75* and pitch Wyeast 5335 starter (that was started a week ago) and US-05 at the same time. Ferment at 63* for two days and the raise the temp to 70* for a couple of days.

This is finished fermenting and is sitting at about 1.010. I wanted drier, but meh, what can you do...

Now is time for the lacto to do its thing. I am thinking I will keep it at 70 for a long time now, but I really want to drink this in the next month or two. Until then, I have my fake berliner weisse and it is actually tasty. It doesn't have the character, but it has the sourness that I was looking for in it.

I actually just ran the real numbers and it is at 4.05ph, 1.7plato (1.007) and 3.2 alcohol.

I was happy with the tartness it currently has, but know I can get it to 3.5ish or less. I am intrigued however because it tasted like budweiser when I filtered my sample and tasted. Just lets me know that I can make a light quaffable beer that has no alcohol.

If I bottled this now and let it do its thing, I don't forsee any chance of a bottle bomb seeing as there is a measly .007 gravity points and the Lacto (from what I have heard) doesn't produce CO2. Really, I would be looking at something that could just age for a long time until sour enough...right?

Hot Damn! I know I just posted, but I have to post again! When I sparged this I got my ten gallons and then said, what the heck, I have never done this sour mash thing so let's try it. I took the remaining two or so gallons of nearly sugarless juice ( maybe 1.007 max) and put it into a 3 gallon better bottle and added to that a handful of malt at 115*f. I covered the top with tin foil and left it outside for two days where it got to 100 during the day and 50 at night. After checking my numbers from the Berliner I said, Self, let's check that stuff out in the BB and either toss it or maybe put some aside to use for something.

I racked off a little bit into a glass and smelled. Sourish. Tasted it. Sour and tangy and everything I was looking for in a beer. This of course has no alcohol so what to do. I racked off two glasses worth and put them into my berliner, so now it has lacto culture and sour mash culture brewing away inside of it! I am so intrigued now...

Not that there is much that will be able to be consumed by the lacto, I am just super interested in what is going to happen and if it will sour all that much or not.

Here are some pics along the way. The top right and the bottom left are enlargable by clicking

I just checked on my BB with the lactic in it and the pellicle has officially formed. Since it has in the better bottle, I assume that the one in my fermenter (in a keg) has or will in the next couple of days. This said, I will take a picture tomorrow to post, but I am excited. Since this is my first time with Lacto, I don't know what to expect or on what time frame. I am thinking that I will leave this for shy of a month and then keg and start drinking.

My fake berliner is kegged and I am going to start carbonating it in the next week and then drink it Sept. 1 or so. Different, but still tart.

BB smells like vomit and nail polish, so now I know that two weeks is far too long. I just tasted and tested the Ber Weisse and it is not tart, bland and I really am not digging it at all. I think that I might have some dead lactic starter that I used in it. I might well need to repitch a lactic or just call it what it is and have a light drinking beer for the end of the work day.

I will attempt again with another lactic culture in order to achieve what I started.