Auber SYL-2362 Temperature Control Issues

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rudy0498

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I built an E-HERMS rig a while back. I've done 3 batches so far and have worked through most of the issues that are obviously of my own doing. During my last brew session, I believe that I did everything right for the most part. But, after mashing in and dropping the SV on my HLT from strike temp (165) to the mash temp (154), the PID kept heating all the way up to 173 before I gave up and killed the power to the element. Once I was able to cool it back down (which took about 30 minutes), I switched the element back on. From that point, it stayed right on my mash temp for the rest of the mash.

I have auto-tuned multiple times and calibrated my RTD (PT100). The last time I auto-tuned, I heated water (only) to mashing temps before I started the auto-tune, and recirculated through my MLT until the auto-tune finished. I figure that this is closest simulation I can get without screwing up an actual mash.


Couple of Things about my setup/method:
- My RTD is placed at the end of my HEX right before it goes back into the MLT.
- I recirculate continuously throughout the mash.
- After mashing in, I add cold water to the HLT to drop it down to my mash temp.

If anyone has any tips or tests I can try use to isolate the problem, I would greatly appreciate it. I have read through some threads and haven't seen any potential causes that I haven't already eliminated.
 
Did you change the amount of water in your HLT? The autotune function set the system up for a given volume of water and if you deviate, the PID will not work weel in this "new system" ie larger volumn of water to heat and also cool.

My PID is tuned atthe 6 gallon mark in a converted Rubbermaid 10 gal cooler/HEX. If I try the same thing at 7+ it will typically overshoot dramitically.
 
Did you change the amount of water in your HLT? The autotune function set the system up for a given volume of water and if you deviate, the PID will not work weell in this "new system" ie larger valumn of water to heat and also cool.

My PID is tuned atthe 6 gallon mark in a converted Rubbermaid 10 gal cooler/HEX. If I try the same thing at 7+ it will typically overshoot dramitically.

I haven't used my Auber PID yet, but this sounds wrong. What is the point of the device if you always have to use the same water amounts?
 
The auto-tune on the 2362 isn't ideally suited for brewing where we really need a critically damped behavior.

First off, set your IntY to P10.0 (not P100) to get increased accuracy out of the sensor and re-run auto-tune with a water volume around your "normal" brew session size. After that's done, post your P I d and SouF values and I can probably offer some tweaks to control the over-shoot.
 
Did you change the amount of water in your HLT? The autotune function set the system up for a given volume of water and if you deviate, the PID will not work weell in this "new system" ie larger valumn of water to heat and also cool.

My PID is tuned atthe 6 gallon mark in a converted Rubbermaid 10 gal cooler/HEX. If I try the same thing at 7+ it will typically overshoot dramitically.

Overshoot or Undershoot? I could see that if it is tuned at one volume and you increase that volume, it would take more power to heat than it expects. So I would think that it would undershoot, or take longer than normal. I could see it overshooting if you decreased the volume.

I'm pretty sure that during my last auto-tune attempt, I did have 7 gallons in my HLT. That is my goal volume during the mash, because that is just enough to submerge my HEX.


This is how I heat my mash:
1.) I initially heat my mash water plus what I want left in my HLT to strike temp. Last time this was about 165.
2.) After I hit my temp, I transfer the mash water into the MLT, leaving behind about 6.5 gallons of water in the HLT.
3.) I add a half gallon of room temperature water to the HLT to get it down to my mashing temp and change the SV. Last time it was 154.

The overshoot happened right after I changed the SV to 154 and added my half gallon of water. I wonder how quickly the PID adjusts to a change in the SV or PV. If there is a delay, and I suddenly dropped the PV 12 degrees by adding that water...maybe it didn't react to the fact that I changed the SV as well. But if that is the case, what is the best way to adjust the temparature without making the PID go bananas.
 
The auto-tune on the 2362 isn't ideally suited for brewing where we really need a critically damped behavior.

First off, set your IntY to P10.0 (not P100) to get increased accuracy out of the sensor and re-run auto-tune with a water volume around your "normal" brew session size. After that's done, post your P I d and SouF values and I can probably offer some tweaks to control the over-shoot.

OK...I did have it set to P10.0. Here are my Configuration Parameters:

Inty = P10.0
outy = 2
Hy = 000.3
Atdu = 010
Psb = 000.6
rd = 0
CorF = 1

Here are my PID parameters:

P = 00.7
I = 0159
d = 039
SouF = 0.2
ot = 002
FILt = 0
 
Damn, too quick! All my notes are @ home. :p

From memory those numbers don't look too crazy though. The easiest thing to try first is simply crank up SouF so the artificial intelligence algorithm has more influence over the over-shoot. Set it to .8 or .7 and do a test-run...
 
Damn, too quick! All my notes are @ home. :p

From memory those numbers don't look too crazy though. The easiest thing to try first is simply crank up SouF so the artificial intelligence algorithm has more influence over the over-shoot. Set it to .8 or .7 and do a test-run...

Ha yeah...I'm home sick from work today. Plus the kids are at school, so I'm free of "other obligations."

I was reading over the manual and it does look like the SouF is the right variable to tweak. If you get a chance to look over your notes and can provide any more advice, I'd appreciate it. It might be a couple weeks before I get a chance to do a test run, but I'll post back to let you know how it turns out.

Thanks!
 
Overshoot or Undershoot? I could see that if it is tuned at one volume and you increase that volume, it would take more power to heat than it expects. So I would think that it would undershoot, or take longer than normal. I could see it overshooting if you decreased the volume.

I'm pretty sure that during my last auto-tune attempt, I did have 7 gallons in my HLT. That is my goal volume during the mash, because that is just enough to submerge my HEX.


This is how I heat my mash:
1.) I initially heat my mash water plus what I want left in my HLT to strike temp. Last time this was about 165.
2.) After I hit my temp, I transfer the mash water into the MLT, leaving behind about 6.5 gallons of water in the HLT.
3.) I add a half gallon of room temperature water to the HLT to get it down to my mashing temp and change the SV. Last time it was 154.

The overshoot happened right after I changed the SV to 154 and added my half gallon of water. I wonder how quickly the PID adjusts to a change in the SV or PV. If there is a delay, and I suddenly dropped the PV 12 degrees by adding that water...maybe it didn't react to the fact that I changed the SV as well. But if that is the case, what is the best way to adjust the temparature without making the PID go bananas.

I know, but my auber seems to want to overshoot. Just re-tuned it tonight at 7 gallons. Still wants to go a degree or two high. I have the -52 version with a Pt100.

In practice, works really well though. Whats a degree or two amungst friends?
 
I haven't used my Auber PID yet, but this sounds wrong. What is the point of the device if you always have to use the same water amounts?

Unfortunately, thats the nature of these things. If you have more or less water, the temperature will increase slower or faster depending and it will give you an undershoot or overshoot.

These things are designed to work in a steady state environment, not a variable one.

However, its going to get you what you need and work really well unless you start needing 2X or 1/2 the water. If that the case, you might need to auto-tune at those volumns and manually set up the PID parameters manually for each batch size so that once in auto mode, you'll get good results.
 
dtfeld said:
I know, but my auber seems to want to overshoot. Just re-tuned it tonight at 7 gallons. Still wants to go a degree or two high. I have the -52 version with a Pt100.

In practice, works really well though. Whats a degree or two amungst friends?

You should try raising the SouF value, which is supposed to control the overshoot. If you read about it in the manual that variable, that is exactly what it is supposed to control. If it is too low, it will overshoot. The range is .1-.10 and mine was set for .02. My belief is that it has to help. I'm looking forward to testing it out, although I'm not sure when I'll be able to.
 
Ok, here's what I've got my 2362 set at right now. I'm still playing around a good bit so consider this a work in progress:

Inty = P10.0
outy = 2
Hy = 0.1
Atdu = 0
Psb = 0
rd = 0
CorF = 1

P = 0.9
I = 420
d = 0
SouF = 0.7
ot = 2
FILt = 0

As "D" is the culprit for most stability issues (engineers who use PIDs in manufacturing often joke the D stands for Death), and as our systems generally don't experience rapid PV changes, I'm currently using my 2362 as a PI only controller. Read on for why as well as a breakdown of the 2362's PID controls...

P is easy to understand. Set to Fahrenheit and P10.0, the temp range of the 2362 is 1100 degrees. A P of .9% x 1100 = roughly a 10 degree proportional band. This means if SV is 150 and PV is 140 (or lower), output should be 100%. At a PV of 145, output should be 50%.

I is tougher to put into simple math terms but the key thing to note about I is it is time based. It boosts the output based on how long PV has been away from SV. If you override your PID's control by killing output to the heating element, it doesn't know this. All it knows is PV is NOT changing based on its output so I becomes a bigger and bigger influence on the PID output. When you turn the element back on, an overshoot can occur because the PID thinks a LOT of output is now necessary to get PV to SV. Every time you override the PID's output, you should reset its time reference by power cycling or by setting a new SV.

The dreaded D... D's job is to influence output based on how quickly PV is diverging from SV. A great example of the need for D would be in an oven. When the door is opened, the hot air rapidly escapes. Instead of waiting for PV to fall to the point where P ramps up output, D will immediately boost output itself based on how rapidly the divergence from SV is occurring. The thing is, our systems don't have rapid PV changes. An incorrect D value can lead to significant oscillations in the system - both overshoot and undershoot of the SV. This is why I've scrapped using D.

Finally, SouF. This is the 2362's "artificial intelligence" control on output. No details on the algorithm are provided by Auber. All we know is it dampens overshoot with a variable level of influence from 0.1 to 1.0. In my tests it does seem to work quite well, as long as one keeps in mind the previously mentioned time factor of I.

So, how to set up your 2362 PID? First, make sure your config is correct. For an RTD probe, set Inty = P10.0, not P100. With an SSR, hysteresis should be small, like Hy = 0.1. Set Atdu = 0 as it's OK if PV overshoots SV during auto-tune. Set CorF to your preferred temperature scale and stick with it. Changing CorF or Inty changes the math and will require a new auto-tune run. Don't mess with Psb at this point.

Now you've got choices...

Option 1: Auto-tune.
Set up your system as it would normally run for brewing. Typical water volume, pump on if you recirculate your mash, etc. Give the temp probe 5 minutes to stabilize before powering up the PID. Now power up the PID and enter a SV of 150F. Press and hold > until the "AT" indicator starts to blink. Go have a few beers. This will take a while. Once "AT" is done blinking, auto-tune is done and PV should match SV (150F). Using your lab thermometer, check the actual system temp. If it's not 150F, now's the time to adjust the 2362's Psb setting to compensate. Now go into the PID parameters and set SouF to at least .5, higher if you experience overshoot in operation.

Option 2: PI operation.
Basically same steps as option 1 except while you're in the PID parameters, change I to be 1.5x the auto-tuned value and set d to 0.

Option 3: P operation.
Screw auto-tune, screw this damn PID trying to out-think you! Set P to the proportional band you want. Assuming Inty = P10.0 and CorF = 1, a P of 1.8 = about 20 deg, 0.9 = about 10 deg, and 0.5 = about 5 deg. Set I and d to 0. Now the PID will strictly set output in proportion to the PV. This actually works EXTREMELY well, assuming one critical point - that your temp probe is very close to the heat source. If it's not, say the probe's in the MLT and you're heating in a RIMS tube, the delay between heat output and probe reading can again lead to overshoot.

Disclaimers:
I ain't an expert in this stuff, but I've been reading quite a bit on PID theory, talking to Auber about the 2362 specifically, and running lots of tests. I'd definitely like feedback from PID gurus out there.

PID values & tuning procedures are not transferrable across models - even Auber's! The 2352 uses an ENTIRELY different value for P. Someone else will need to write the 2352 setup guide. :D
 
Option 1: Auto-tune.
Set up your system as it would normally run for brewing. Typical water volume, pump on if you recirculate your mash, etc. Give the temp probe 5 minutes to stabilize before powering up the PID. Now power up the PID and enter a SV of 150F. Press and hold > until the "AT" indicator starts to blink. Go have a few beers. This will take a while. Once "AT" is done blinking, auto-tune is done and PV should match SV (150F). Using your lab thermometer, check the actual system temp. If it's not 150F, now's the time to adjust the 2362's Psb setting to compensate. Now go into the PID parameters and set SouF to at least .5, higher if you experience overshoot in operation.

I think this is a great post, although I won't know for sure until I try it.

How would you know you experienced overshoot if you go have a few beers? Wouldn't you need to be sitting and watching when you get near the set point? I am being serious - not joking here, or is there some logging feature that tells you?

Does Auber acknowledge that the auto tune is in need of a redo?

Thanks for the info - almost ready this week to give it a whirl.
 
How would you know you experienced overshoot if you go have a few beers? Wouldn't you need to be sitting and watching when you get near the set point? I am being serious - not joking here, or is there some logging feature that tells you?

Does Auber acknowledge that the auto tune is in need of a redo?

It WILL overshoot during auto-tune. That's how it learns. If you see overshoot during brewing, bump up SouF.

Auto-tune works fine for what it does. A homebrewer's PID requirements are a bit different from those of someone running a kiln or oven.
 
Ok, here's what I've got my 2362 set at right now. I'm still playing around a good bit so consider this a work in progress:

Wow...jkarp. Thank you! This is great stuff. Your definitions are much easier to understand then the manual. :D It is definitely Sticky worthy IMO.

After reading this, maybe the "D" got me. I rapidly dropped the temperature 10+ degrees by adding cold water, which would have flipped it out. Should it have reset once I lowered the SV from my Strike Temp to Mashing Temp?

I think I'm going to try eliminating the "D" and raise my SouF .7. Again...Thank you!
 
Here is a tip... I find the PID to be very good at holding temps, but piss-poor at reaching temps without overshooting. This (I think) is due to the fact that your element neads to heat up over time, so a given power setting yields different heat output over time (to a point).

The FIX:

run water though the system and let the pid stabilize at some set temperature (preferably around 155). Then, hold down the SET key until the PID goes into manual override mode. Note the readout... it will be the percentage of power that the PID was just using to hold your water at that temp (for me, this is about 25% power). This is called "bumpless transfer" - see your manual for more info on accessing manual mode if your model differs.

Now that you know what power output is necessary to hold your temps (it varies with other variables.. that's what the PID is for, but it is a good ballpark, you should leave your PID in manual mode at 100% power (or 90, or 80.. whatever) to heat your water or raise your wort to temperature. Once you are within a degree or so, set the output to your measured 'stable temperature' output level (for me, 25%). THEN hold down SET to return to PID control mode. "Bumpless transfer" will tell the PID to use that last setting (25%) to start with and adjust itself much more sanely from there.
 
Finally getting back to this topic. First brew day I overshot as much as 5F during the mash. I played around with the numbers and never really got a handle on correcting the problem. What I finally figured out was that having my RTD in a tee with the ball-valve was an ill advised location due to a lack of wort volume. I changed that and put the RTD directly into the kettle and re-tuned.

I wound up with P .07, I 312, D 78, Souf .2 . At this point with only a water test my temp stayed within .1 degree of SV. Assuming hopefully similar results on next brew day I will be a happy camper.
 
Wow, I've found my PID to be DRAMATICALLY more accurate and resistant to overshoot since I moved the RTD to the tee and put a 90 deg barb on the kettle return to force the kettle to whirlpool.

Turns out my "overshoot" was happening not because of the PID but because of stratification in the kettle. PID would think the kettle's at say 154 and I'd start pumping to the MLT. Temp would shoot up as the hotter water at the top got pumped in. Keeping the kettle more homogeneous has made for much more accurate mashes in my system.

I'm still experiencing occasional integral windup with huge SV changes however. I just remember to give the PID a kick by momentarily unplugging the RTD 10-15 deg before SV.
 
I've considered trying to move my RTD as well. Mine is located inside the HERMS coil and is measuring the wort as it exits the coil. I don't think stratification is my issue because the temperature should balance out as the wort goes through the coil. What I am worried about is that the wort will respond slower to the temperature change than the water in the kettle. So by the time the wort reaches the SV temperature, water in the kettle is already too warm and will cause it to overshoot. This shouldn't be a problem once I hit my mash temp, but could make it very difficult to reach it.

I'm not sure what to do about this. I really like the idea of measuring the actual wort temperature, rather than having to calculate the difference between the wort temp and the water temp. Also, if I put the RTD in the kettle instead of the HEX, I have to figure how to deal with the stratification.

So this is what happened to me on my last brew day. I started out with the SouF at .7, doubled my I, and set the D to zero. I overshot my strike temp a little but it was less than a degree. Once I mashed in the temperature was about 1-2 degrees too low, and after 15 minutes it wasn't getting much closer to my SV. I set the SouF to .6, set the I value to 150% of its original (autotune) value, and only decreased the D by 50% of it's original value. This seemed to work better for me.

I am making somewhat of a big change in my system that may throw a wrench in this, but should be better in the long run. I have a 2nd PID that I use for my BK in manual mode, but the RTD attached to that PID is actually measuring the temperature in my MLT (so I have a 2nd reference point during my mash). I decided to buy a 3rd RTD to put in the BK so I can heat my strike water in the BK instead of the HLT. That way I can set the temperature the HLT and never have to change it. If I can eliminate having to deal with the temperature drop in my HLT from strike temp to mash temp, hopefully it will stabilize my system enough that I don't have to move the RTD outside of the coil.

Anyway....that is where I am at. Clear as stout, right?
 
Finally getting back to this topic. First brew day I overshot as much as 5F during the mash. I played around with the numbers and never really got a handle on correcting the problem. What I finally figured out was that having my RTD in a tee with the ball-valve was an ill advised location due to a lack of wort volume. I changed that and put the RTD directly into the kettle and re-tuned.

I wound up with P .07, I 312, D 78, Souf .2 . At this point with only a water test my temp stayed within .1 degree of SV. Assuming hopefully similar results on next brew day I will be a happy camper.

Finally got to test this with a live brew. When just heating my water for the initial mash (10 gallons BIAB) I overshot several degrees. I finally remembered that when I auto-tuned I had the pump recirculating rather slowly so I adjusted the flow downwards and the temps stabilized. During the actual mash the total temp swing was from 152.3 to 153.4 with a SV of 153F. I consider this a success and I don't intend to mess with that part of the process.
 
I've been using my system and mostly enjoy the ease of brewing, however I've found with my settings how finicky the PID can be. If I don't have everything set just right (mostly pump speed and location of recirculation hose) the system won't get to temperature or it will overshoot. When I have it set perfectly it will stay in range as I posted above.

All in all I'm thinking that the BCS controller I have on my single tier stand does a much better job - although I am going to sell it one of these days.
 
I'm breaking in my new system and I've had some issues with my SYL-2362's. I've tried running auto tune several of times with just water in the system and I've not had any luck. I set the set point to 160F turn auto tune on and it runs for over an hour and takes the temp to 210F before I cut it off. I've gathered from reading that isn't normal operation.

I did an extract batch using my boil PID in manual mode and even that didn't appear to work correctly. I left it at 100% until I reached boiling and started backing it down. Every time I checked on the boil it was a vigorous rolling boil. I even took it down to 1% and it was rolling just as hard as ever.

I manually programmed the PIDs using jkarp's input several posts back but even that didn't help the auto tune process. What am I doing wrong with this?
 
SpaceCoastBrew said:
I'm breaking in my new system and I've had some issues with my SYL-2362's. I've tried running auto tune several of times with just water in the system and I've not had any luck. I set the set point to 160F turn auto tune on and it runs for over an hour and takes the temp to 210F before I cut it off. I've gathered from reading that isn't normal operation.

I did an extract batch using my boil PID in manual mode and even that didn't appear to work correctly. I left it at 100% until I reached boiling and started backing it down. Every time I checked on the boil it was a vigorous rolling boil. I even took it down to 1% and it was rolling just as hard as ever.

I manually programmed the PIDs using jkarp's input several posts back but even that didn't help the auto tune process. What am I doing wrong with this?

I bet you have the wiring wrong somehow. Like the pid isn't controlling the element. I'm no expert so caveat emptor, but it'd be nice to see how you have it wired up.
 
It's not the wiring. I followed Kal's (theelectricbrewery.com) wiring schematic and I've double checked everything in the control panel. They all calibrate fine, they read temps fine, there's something not quite with the controlling aspect.
 
I haven't got my model 2352 up and running yet so caveat emptor.... But I have read the manual and I'm pretty sure that if you do have the pid set to manual at 1% then you shouldn't be boiling that quantity of water. Either you pid is defective or the wiring is incorrect. Or you aren't actually putting the pid in manual mode.

Edit: maybe you are using a 5500 watt element to boil 3 gal.. Then MAYBE 1% could maintain a rolling boil.
 
Test the SSR, might be in a failed state. If you disconnect the PID from the SSR (low voltage wires) does the element still heat the water?
 
Thanks for the suggestion samc. I just got a chance to test the elements, both SSRs had failed closed. They were cheap ones off of ebay, maybe I got the bad ones of the bunch. Just placed an order with Auber for a few things and picked up a pair of their SSRs. Hopefully that will fix the issue.
 
My first batch of SSR's from Auber failed, it is extremely unusual for a pair of SSR's to fail at the same time unless you have an "event". In my case one of those cheap EBAY pilot lamps turned out to be the wrong voltage and when it blew it took out both SSR's. My point is triple check, then double check everything before you power it up, or you might be buying more SSR's.
 
That's interesting you mention that. Both of my illuminated switches (HLT and BK) blew as well - they came from automation direct and appear to be the proper size. I know that when I did my water test the SSRs were working properly in manual mode and both of my switches were illuminated. But I'm not sure what "event" would cause my lamps to blow thus knocking out my SSRs.

The switch itself is wired to control the mechanical relay and I have a 14 gauge lead coming off the relay output and back to the lamp so it should only light up once the relay is closed and I know power is being applied to the elements (I followed the wiring schematic at The Electric Brewery). I'm not sure how an event there would even reach the SSRs. Regardless, I'll go through all my components before I brew again.

Thanks for the input.
 
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