Do micro or commercial breweries use a secondary?

Do micro or commercial breweries use a secondary? Or do they just use a primary?

Often they do, although they are generally referred to as "bright tanks."

They also may use a filter or centerfuge and more effective cold crash techniques, so not really an apples-to-apples comparison.

Because they like quick turnaround for production efficiency, they move out of the fermenters to free them up for more brewing.

Commercial brewers do not use secondaries. The beer goes from the fermenter to the bright tank.

The term secondary is a hold-over from wine and mead making.

they also use glycol jacketed uni-tanks (aka conicals) to remove the yeast from the beer rather than removing the beer from teh yeast.

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david_42 said:

Commercial brewers do not use secondaries. The beer goes from the fermenter to the bright tank.

The term secondary is a hold-over from wine and mead making.

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While the term may be a hold-over, the concept is identical.

+1 to HSM and GilaMinumBeer. They either rack to a "Bright tank" or leave the brew in the Conical Fermenter, and drop the trub out the bottom.

When I worked at Tree brewing, they beer stayed ion the yeast for x number of weeks, then was transfered to SS tanks in a cold room to "brighten" and age (lager). Carbing was done naturally while in the primary.

Denny's Evil Concoctions said:

When I worked at Tree brewing, they beer satyed ion the yeast for x number fo weaks then was treansfered to SS tanks in a cold room to "birghten" and age (lager). Carbing was done naturally while in the primary.

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And our friend Denny has been sampling some beer tonight I see

What he said was that the beer stayed in the yeast for x number of weeks then was transferred to the SS tanks in a cold room to brighten and age

don't worry Denny - I'm too

So I understand the conicle. What exactly is the bright tank? How much different is it from a secondary that we would use?

Don't brew pubs serve from the bright tanks?

Julohan said:

So I understand the conicle. What exactly is the bright tank? How much different is it from a secondary that we would use?

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The Brite tank is the "proper" term for a secondary vessel...the problem is that "secondary Fermenter" is often confused by new brewers with the "secondary PHASE" or fermentation.

"Secondary fermenter" is actually a misnomer and a mistake many brewers don't grasp....the secondary has nothing to do with he process of "secondary fermentation" which is part of the normal yeast life cycle, one of the stages of fermentation.Which is done in your bucket or carboy.

You shouldn't rack a beer to secondary until fermentation is complete...

The secondary we are referring to is also called a "brite tank" it is the carboy where people move their beer to clear, or to add fruit, or hops for dry hopping... and to let the yeast and other things fall down...I

Here's John Palmer's explanation of the Secondary fermentation Phase

The fermentation of malt sugars into beer is a complicated biochemical process. It is more than just the conversion of sugar to alcohol, which can be regarded as the primary activity. Total fermentation is better defined as three phases, the Adaptation or Lagtime phase, the Primary or Attenuative phase and a Secondary or Conditioning phase. The yeast do not end Phase 2 before beginning Phase 3, the processes occur in parallel, but the conditioning processes occur more slowly. As the majority of simple sugars are consumed, more and more of the yeast will transition to eating the larger, more complex sugars and early yeast by-products. This is why beer (and wine) improves with age to a degree, as long as they are on the yeast. Beer that has been filtered or pasteurized will not benefit from aging.

The reactions that take place during the conditioning phase are primarily a function of the yeast. The vigorous primary stage is over, the majority of the wort sugars have been converted to alcohol, and a lot of the yeast cells are going dormant - but some are still active.

The Secondary Phase allows for the slow reduction of the remaining fermentables. The yeast have eaten most all of the easily fermentable sugars and now start to turn their attention elsewhere. The yeast start to work on the heavier sugars like maltotriose. Also, the yeast clean up some of the byproducts they produced during the fast-paced primary phase. ...

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It's easy to see how confusing the terms are...that's why we try to get outta the habit of saying secondary fermentation...and just say secondary...or bright tank (mostly just secondary, dropping fermenter or fermentation, since fermentation should be finished before you rack it to the secondary. After the hydrometer reading stays the same for 3 days.

New brewers often rack way too early, and often interrupt the secondary phase because of this, and that is why you often see panic threads about Krausens forming in secondary, because the yeast was really still in the primary phase of fermentation when it was moved.

And it starts building a krauzen house again....

If you do choose to use a "bright tank" it's best to wait til fermentation is complete, you know that by taking 2 gravity readings over a 3 day period. If the grav hasn't changed, then you can rack it without having a krausen develop...though sometimes it does anyway.

Many of us nowadays forgo a bright tank and just leave our beers in primary for 3-4 weeks, then bottle...We only use a secondary if we are adding something to the beer, such as fruit, dryhopping or oaking the beer, otherwise we just leave the beer alone and let the yeasts clean up the beer at their own pace. Or if we added fruit, like pumpkin in the boil and want to get the beer off the goop.

Are careful reading of Palmer will also lend credence to the idea of letting a beer stay in primary longer than you think it should...

How To Brew said:

Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks (instead of just the one week most canned kits recommend), will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. And, three weeks in the primary fermentor is usually not enough time for off-flavors to occur.

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So the secondary we use can and is known as a bright tank. Oak barrel? I am curious about this. So instead of using a glass carboy as the bright tank, one could use an oak barrel? I assume it will give an oak taste, similar to wines and whiskeys.

Julohan said:

So the secondary we use can and is known as a bright tank. Oak barrel? I am curious about this. So instead of using a glass carboy as the bright tank, one could use an oak barrel? I assume it will give an oak taste, similar to wines and whiskeys.

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Very few people have access to an oak barrel, when I am talking about oaking, I am referring to adding sanitized oak chips into the secondary, as if it were another ingredient like fruit, chocolate or hops as in dry hopping.

No the secondary vessel that HBers use is not called a brite tank. It is either another carboy or pail or a corny keg.

A bright tank is generally double walled for glycol cooling of the inner contents. it is not conical shaped, it is built like a cylinder. In micros, carbonation is often introduce via CO2, but the purpose of the bright tanks is to condition the beer from green to servable. It usually kegged and bottled from the bright tanks, even to be served in the brewpub. This varies by brewery, as some add sugar and secondary ferment in bottle for carb., and some brewpubs take their serving beer from the bright tanks, but unless they secondary ferment in bottle for carb., it is carbonated in the bright tank, via sugar or CO2.

None of these things are hard and fast rules, though. Every micro does things differently.


Bright tanks in foreground and right side, conicals left side rear.

Henry Hill said:

No the secondary vessel that HBers use is not called a brite tank. It is either another carboy or pail or a corny keg.

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I don't agree, for all intents and purposes, it serves the same function for us as a metal brite tank serves for them, JUST LIKE, a bucket or Primary serves the roll that a conical does for the big boys.

You ferment in primary.

You clear/bulk age/condition/ in the brite tank, or secondary.....

Actually, there is some difference. We don't typically carbonate our beer in the secondary.

I guess my corny kegs serve as my bright tanks.

Lil' Sparky said:

Actually, there is some difference. We don't typically carbonate our beer in the secondary.

I guess my corny kegs serve as my bright tanks.

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Yes, they do serve that same purpose.

BUT NO REVVY, they aren't called bright tanks at home by HBers!

SHEESH!

Lil' Sparky said:

Actually, there is some difference. We don't typically carbonate our beer in the secondary.

I guess my corny kegs serve as my bright tanks.

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But not every brewery carbs in the brite tank either. And some people use pressure vessesl (in england) as secondaries and do carb at that time as well.

Listen, my point is all really about getting away from the confusion caused by the term "secondary fermenter" and the secondary fermentation phase, which really is happening in primary after the krauzen falls. ANd not racking to the secondary, until fermentation has ceased.

If you guys wanna dither with semantics, fine....but the point is, fermentation should not be happening in the secondary (except where something like fruit is added to it) and even then many brewers who fruit in the secondary, then rack to a tertiary to clear.

Most breweries filter the beer as it's transferred from the fermentation vessel to the bright tank. They transfer the beer under CO2 pressure and then bleed off some of the pressure to reach the desired carbonation level. So, the beer is "bright" as it enters the bright tank, not as a result of clearing in the bright tank.

We, as homebrewers don't typically ferment under pressure, filter our beer, or store in bright tanks. We ferment at ambient pressure, use time, finings, etc. to clear the beer, and go straight to a keg or store in an ambient pressure secondary vessel.

I'm just making the point that our processes are often much different than the big boys...

Why do some companies ferment in open fermenters? Wouldn't that risk contamination?

WORD! Revvy

Ahhh great. I am going to have to disagree with Rev.

A secondary fermenter when used properly is exactly that. A fermenter for the second phase of fermentation. The purpose of using a "secondary fermenter" is the same as a yeast dump while using a conical. At the time when about 2/3-3/4 of the fermentation sugars are consumed (2/3-3/4 of the OG), the beer is racked to a new fermenting vessel while still fermenting. Usually this time coincides with the krausen dropping.

I use a secondary fermenter when I make lighter or delicately flavored beers that I want to get of the trub as soon as possible (normally around 4 days for ales).

The vast majority of brewers here, use the single fermenter route and do not concern themselves with secondary fermenters. I do not always use one either but only when I feel the beer warrants one.

In that case, the second vessel is a bright tank that is used for beer clarification and to drop out long chain proteins.

Some of us are confusing the names of equipment with the terms to describe a process.

Let us not forget that there are several ways to do things. I for one think that getting the beer away from the mutant yeast cells and decaying trub is beneficial. I have been doing a lot of reading lately and am becoming more and more convinced that proper yeast management includes proper trub management. A classical lager fermentation for example has up to three yeast dumps. Without a conical, that means three transfers (i.e., a primary, secondary, and tertiary fermenters).

Julohan said:

Why do some companies ferment in open fermenters? Wouldn't that risk contamination?

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Well, partially because they WANT some contamination....contamination, and infection is not necessarily a bad thing....Think lambics, and Belgians with their characteristic funkiness, or steam beers..."house" or native germs can impart unique and distinctive qualities to beers.

At the same time, a high pitch rate of healthy yeast (even in your own brewery) well defeat any really damaging bugs, like aecetobactor which will turn your beer to vinegar.

But guess what, even your own surroundings will impart a distinctive flavor to your beer. Especially if you recycle yeast and it mutate.

Now the hope is that the "house germ" imparts a pleasant flavor and not something nasty.

On a bit of a tangent, "infections" in our brewery is inevitable, but like I also said, hopefully it just adds a distinctive quality to our beer....but sometimes we are not so lucky....

On Craftbrewer radio they said it usually happens around the 10th, the 30th and the 50th batch...even the pro's deal with it (the Brewer at New Glarus said in an interview that a commercial brewery operation gets a 3 year grace period before their first infection)

It's called a house germ...and it develops over time...

I got an infection around the 20th batch, I replaced my autosiphon, bottling wand and all my hoses and temporaly change my sanitizer, in case the house germ was getting used to it...

This is one of the best posts on the subject....

Saccharomyces said:

If you pitch enough viable, healthy yeast to do their job, it's hard to contaminate your brew to the point it isn't drinkable. Trust me, I've had an infection in my brewery, and I had to work really hard to get it! In my case, it was on the fourth generation of re-using yeast which I had not washed properly (I was still a n00b back then). Every time you reuse yeast you are growing the level of contamination by 100-1000x, so I learned the hard way you have to be very careful going beyond 1 or 2 re-uses of yeast.

A n00b following sanitary procedures using new equipment is very unlikely to have ruined beer. The worst thing that may happen is your beer will go sour after 4-6 months of room temperature storage. I doubt your beer will last that long.

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The hosts of the podcast in Australia have 60 years of brewing experience...It's funny, but John Palmer learns from them they've been doing hpmebrewing radio for 6-7 years first on commercial than as a podcast...this is a very good discussion on infection and infection control.

They talk about the "timeframe" of infections, and how it is less likely for a first batch to be infected...it tends to occur around the 10th batch and the 50th...When the equipment gets more used up, and "house germs" start to build up. They used the term "house mouth" in the discussion, how we may not even notice, because we're sort of used to the taste of our beers, it's usually NOT a regular drinker of our beers that notices it.

December#2,2006

“What is sour mashing?” I hear you ask. So said our brewmaster as he guides you thru this most interesting of ways of making a beer. In a nice compact show, we also cover feedback, Kit and Kilo infections, our beer superhero turns “gay”, and a faviourite beer song is requested yet again. Not enough, well also hear about WHO stuffed up his brew day.

http://radio.craftbrewer.org/shows/December2-06.mp3

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olllllo said:

Some of us are confusing the names of equipment with the terms to describe a process.

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Correct. If you allow your beer to ferment and condition in one vessel then transfer to a second for clearing, that is a bright tank.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

Ahhh great. I am going to have to disagree with Rev.

A secondary fermenter when used properly is exactly that. A fermenter for the second phase of fermentation. The purpose of using a "secondary fermenter" is the same as a yeast dump while using a conical. At the time when about 2/3-3/4 of the fermentation sugars are consumed (2/3-3/4 of the OG), the beer is racked to a new fermenting vessel while still fermenting. Usually this time coincides with the krausen dropping.

I use a secondary fermenter when I make lighter or delicately flavored beers that I want to get of the trub as soon as possible (normally around 4 days for ales).

The vast majority of brewers here, use the single fermenter route and do not concern themselves with secondary fermenters. I do not always use one either but only when I feel the beer warrants one.

In that case, the second vessel is a bright tank that is used for beer clarification and to drop out long chain proteins.

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Again, I think you are confusing the phases with the vessels...

I'll re-quote palmer again from above...

The Secondary Phase allows for the slow reduction of the remaining fermentables. The yeast have eaten most all of the easily fermentable sugars and now start to turn their attention elsewhere. The yeast start to work on the heavier sugars like maltotriose. Also, the yeast clean up some of the byproducts they produced during the fast-paced primary phase. ...

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This is exactly what we say when we talk about the yeast cleaning up after themselves when we long primary.....and I firmly believe that those who rack to soon to a secondary, don't get the same benefit that we do....but that is a different discussion...and I'm sure this is going back to re-confusing the OP......

Because, how could this not be otherwise?

Originally Posted by How To Brew
Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks (instead of just the one week most canned kits recommend), will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. And, three weeks in the primary fermentor is usually not enough time for off-flavors to occur.

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OBVIOUSLY the secondary phase of fermentation is is happening here.

Henry Hill said:

Yes, they do serve that same purpose.

BUT NO REVVY, they aren't called bright tanks at home by HBers!

SHEESH!

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Henry, I BEG TO DIFFER AGAIN...Many of us, including a few moderators who I learned this distinction from. Call it the the bright tank...dropping the word fermenter if we use "secondary."

For the above reason...because some people think beer should be fermenting in the secondary...Rather than Brightening....

Just because you may not have seen others on here, or don't do it yourself and elsewhere calling it that, doesn't been I'm wrong....or made it up....

Revvy said:

Henry, I BEG TO DIFFER AGAIN...Many of us, including a few moderators who I learned this distinction from. Call it the the bright tank...dropping the word fermenter if we use "secondary."

For the above reason...because some people think beer should be fermenting in the secondary...Rather than Brightening....

Just because you may not have seen others on here, or don't do it yourself and elsewhere calling it that, doesn't been I'm wrong....or made it up....

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Great, you three call your at home secondary a bright tank, and I and everyone I have ever met in brewing will just giggle.

Henry Hill said:

Great, you three call your at home secondary a bright tank, and I and everyone I have ever met in brewing will just giggle.

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Oh yeah...giggle at HER and she'll kick your a$$.

YooperBrew said:

This has some good info: Category:Beer brewing process - Home Brewing Wiki

Secondary is really a misnomer, since no fermentation is really taking place. It should be called the clearing tank, or the bright tank.

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Want me to dig up more brewers who before I got here use it?

I also heard a few folks mention it on Saturday among the 50 or so people brewing at Big brew day, and many of those were NOT from HBT...

Maybe everyone you've met in brewing is mis informed....They prolly believe in autolysis, or HSA as well...

Do you giggle when people refer to the pile of pots and burners in their garage as their "brewery" too?

Yes I know what Palmer says. In that section however he is talking about avoiding bottling after a week and allowing the beer to sit on the yeast is a MAJOR advantage over that course of action.

However, the yeast that are present in the trub are mostly dormant. The yeast doing the bulk of the conditioning and reduction of undesirable compounds (e.g., diacetyl et al.) are still in suspension. That is why in the section were he describes the use of secondary fermenters, Palmer describes racking while the ferment is still taking place to ensure you have the viable and vigorous yeast still in suspension within the secondary vessel to properly condition the beer.

A secondary fermenter should be used exactly like a yeast dump in a conical.

We can argue all day about whether using a secondary fermenter is a good idea or worth the risk of contamination or whatever, but it is still a good option in my opinion and the right thing to do for many beers.

Boondoggie said:

Do you giggle when people refer to the pile of pots and burners in their garage as their "brewery" too?

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No. I do not mock another man's brewery. But I giggle when my friends or family call my pile a brewery.

His nomenclature, yes.

But never another's brewery.

If your secondary is double wall stainless and you have a glycol system, it's a bright tank. Otherwise, you have what is known as 'bugs on your nuts' and you own a fermenting vessel used as a secondary.

olllllo said:

You can say that you use a carboy as a bright tank (process), but it is not a bright tank (equipment).

I honestly think we are befuddling the OP.

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At last...a reply in this thread that I can completely agree with!

Motion to stop calling igloo coolers "mash lauter tuns"?

lol.... I agree. Or we all have to start calling them carboys used for " ". I think it is easier to identify the vessel by its purpose. Correct or otherwise I think it makes more sense.