Consistently 20 points low........

So I have been brewing since January of this year. I have never brewed a bad beer, and never had an infected batch. Most of the beers I have brewed are big beers(1.080+). And I can definitely tell that they have an abundance of alcohol. But according to my hydrometer readings, I am consistently 20 points low(maybe not always 20 points, I would say at least 10 points and sometimes up to 20). I have bought 3 hyrdrometers and checked and they are all the same. I get my grain milled at my LHBS, and I have never asked but I dont believe that they have problems(but I guess they could). And all my beers finish out at 1.010 or lower. I have used 2 different digital lead thermometers, and tried mercury as well, and as far as I can tell im accurate with my mash temp within a few degrees. I fly sparge with 168-174 degree water. I usually go for whatever pre boil volume beersmith says, but I never get the pre boil gravity that it says i should. Not sure on my setup how much wort I boil off in an hour, I usually just watch it and if its not boiled down enough I will turn up the heat and vice-versa. For a few months I was brewing every Saturday, I would say I have brewed 25-30 times all together. My first batch was a partial mash kit, and from then on its been AG all the way. I hope that's enough information to at least give me a possible scenario, but if not ask anything you need. I keep good notes so I should be able to answer anything. Thanks in advance!

.

One place to start is becoming sure of a lot of things you are not sure of

You are not sure you get a good crush
You are not sure of your mash temps
You are not sure of your boil off
You are not sure your system set up is correct

Until you can confirm all of theses things, then these are the things you need I look at.

Beersmith is a tool and it will only spit out the correct information if what's entered is correct.

i said i used 3 different thermometers and all are within a degree or 2 of my target temp, and the grain looks to be milled correctly with the husks split and all but what i meant is that i have not asked to see if they get any complaints about the mill. and i always wind up with the correct volume after boil im just not sure of how much boil off at what setting i get for a certain amount of time, which is why i watch and adjust as i boil. what about my system is not set up correct? just trying to figure out exactly what you think i should be zeroing in on. not trying to sound ungrateful of your advice. thank you.

beersmith is just giving me what i should have with the ingredients im using at a guesstimated 72% efficency not sure what i could put in wrong that would make that information irrelevant

See the above posts again. A few points:

1. Just because 3 thermometers are within 1-2F of your target doesn't mean any of them are correct. Calibrate one with ice water and boiling water or a calibrated Hg unit.
2. Investigate crush issues. If somebody is doing it for you, it could well be a poor crush. Asking about complaints is, ahem, an inaccurate gauge of crush quality.
3. Boil off has nothing to do with efficiency, so ignore that.
4. Big beers typically have lower efficiency because sparge water is reduced.
5. It's impossible to judge how you are doing when you haven't even told us your efficiency. Tell us efficiency of either mash, into fermenter, or brewhouse.

looks like my mercury thermometer is accurate withing .5 degrees. left it in the ice water (mostly ice) for a few minutes(stirring). Boiled it for a few minutes as well and held steady. according to beersmith with my low gravity readings, my measured mash efficency is in the range of 50-60% depending on the brew. how exactly would you suggest that i investigate my grain crush?

There really is no magic to the process. You just have to start measuring things and making sure they are working well.

So, starting with your rig. Are you using a converted cooler? What type of manifold/braid/false bottom do you have? How long do you stir at mash in? What water ratios are you using? How much of a temp drop do you get during the mash? What temp are you lautering at? (not the sparge water, but the actual temp in the tun?) How long are you boiling?

A simple "trick" is to just increase the preboil volume to get more sugars and then increase the boil time or intensity to hit your targeted post boil volumes. This can really help with big beers.

Glad to see you are pro-active

For the crush I find a gap of .035 or 1mm is great so ask at the LHBS and if they won't adjust then ask them to mill twice.

As mentioned check your mash tun and also fill it with water and drain. See how much liquid is left, you could be missing a lot lot of tasty wort behind. Verify temperature drop and also be sure to dough in really well with a couple of good stirs during the mash

Boil water in your kettle for an hour and see what your boil off is-use a calibrated brewing stick measured in 1/2g increments

If your mash efficiency is that low it will be associated with the crush, dough in, temp, ph and water chemistry. Start with the easiest and go from there

Be sure you hit your pre-boil gravity, it gives you an idea of what's going on and allows you to make adjustments by either adding extract or boiling longer to hit your desired OG.

A good efficiency across the board is 75% but more importantly is dialing everything to be consistent. I would rather know that every time I brew I'm at a certain consistency than being all over the place for each batch

Take better process notes including temps, volumes so you can tweak as you go. If your detailed with everything you should just need a couple batches to get better results!

Are you accounting for temperature in your hydrometer readings? Do you take a pre-boil gravity reading, or are you calculating efficiency based on OG and (unknown) boil off rate?

As others have said, if you're consistent with your efficiency, just factor that into your grain bill and you'll be good to go.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/File:1_All_Parts_r-1-.jpg
that is what i used to make my mash tun, followed it to the T.
i usually stir for about 10 minutes or so, mostly to get the temperature as close as possible. and then half way through mash i open up and stir for 5 to 10 mins checking temperature and then start heating my sparge water. i usually just heat the water to what beersmith says, once i add the grain im usually a few degrees higher so i stir or add an ice cube or 2 to get to my desired temp. usually mash at 152, which puts my strike water at 166-168 and sparge water at 168-170. depending on how bitter i make my recipe (i only brew ipas double ipas and russian imperial stouts) i do a 90 or 60 minute boil. my pre boil gravity is never what beer smith says it is, ive always just assumed that beersmith was incorrect and that it was requiring too much wort to boil. so with that in mind, i think it could be safe to say that i am either no getting the crush i need or i am leaving a good dense layer of sugars at the bottom of my mash tun. so by your suggestion i should tell my LHBS that i want my crush setting to .035 ot 1mm or to crush it twice. and if i am losing a layer of precious sugars at the bottom how would i retrieve said sugars. thanks again for all the responses and suggestions.

and i dont want to be consistent with a low efficiency, i want to raise my efficiency to an average level or above and then be consistent

I also started brewing this year and my numbers were always coming up on the low end. I tweaked my home built crusher to .035 gap and have been hitting the 80s on preboil. I've always read about doughing in to make sure I had no clumps but before I adjusted the crush gap I had no problem with it. Now I have to pour in the crushed grain gently and stir very well because it wants to dough up on me. I can also tell that the water and grain mix looks a lot thicker now. For my screen on the bottom Of my mash tun i just use the stainless flex line

That's how I do it, a nice slow gentle pour whole I stir. And then a good stir till my temp is correct.

Have you tried batch sparging? I batch sparge rather than fly sparging, so I don't have experience to speak from, but my I would think by fly sparging with just a braid laid out straight you will get some channeling, leaving quite a lot of your grains minimally rinsed by sparge water.

I have not tried, I did some research before my first AG batch and the general consensus was that fly sparging was more efficient. But I shall look into and research batch sparging and try that on my next batch. Thanks for the tip

I

I could be going about this all wrong"but my beer taste great" I usually add my water and grain, stir, stir again later. Then after an hour drain most of the wort off and put it on the burner and at the same time put the next batch of now 168 degree water in the mash tun give it a good stir,wait ten minutes drain it off and into the wort that is heating up. My thought is if I converted my starches to sugar then the next water going into the mash tun is just mixing in real good to absorb the sugar content.
This works for me but hey I could be doing this all wrong. I've never seen any channeling going on but I'm sure there would have to be a specially during the end of the run.

So, just to clarify. I start the 60 minute mash once I finish mixing in the grain, but befire I finess the temp down ti precisely what j want. Then I start my sparge as soon as I hit 60 minutes. Should I wait until I hit my desired temp to start and start sparging befire the 60 minute mark so that I finish sparging at 60? Just trying to rule out all problems

fnord said:

Have you tried batch sparging? I batch sparge rather than fly sparging, so I don't have experience to speak from, but my I would think by fly sparging with just a braid laid out straight you will get some channeling, leaving quite a lot of your grains minimally rinsed by sparge water.

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+1

Lowly BIABer here, so my expertise in this field is, well, not exactly expertise, but as far as I'm aware if you don't have a really good false bottom/manifold set up making sure everything drains easily, channeling can quickly turn any increase in efficiency from fly sparging into toilet efficiency as you're only effectively sparging a small portion of your grain bed.

I'd try a couple of rounds doing a batch sparge, and see if that makes a difference.

Read through Braukaiser's threads on efficiency. You need to calculate your conversion efficiency, that will tell you how the mash is performing. From there you can look at other parts of your process.

OofC_Zer0 said:

So, just to clarify. I start the 60 minute mash once I finish mixing in the grain, but befire I finess the temp down ti precisely what j want. Then I start my sparge as soon as I hit 60 minutes. Should I wait until I hit my desired temp to start and start sparging befire the 60 minute mark so that I finish sparging at 60? Just trying to rule out all problems

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No, start draining your wort at 60 minutes. Sometimes I'm 65 min. in before I drain. I bring my sparge water to 168 degrees F. before I sparge. So if the wort has to sit in my mash tun a little over 60 min. till my water gets to temp. I don't sweat it.
Like I said I would really check your crush to see if it's fine enough. Mine had a good crush but when I went about 5 thousands smaller I noticed a lot better efficiency pre boil.

So, for checking my boil off. I have a bayou classic and a 10 gallon aluminum pot. There isn't a dial with presets for hear or anything. Should I just count half or quarter turns and hope that's the same flame everytime? Or Is there a better way?

OofC_Zer0 said:

So, for checking my boil off. I have a bayou classic and a 10 gallon aluminum pot. There isn't a dial with presets for hear or anything. Should I just count half or quarter turns and hope that's the same flame everytime? Or Is there a better way?

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Heat**

Visit http://www.dennybrew.com for instructions on Batch Sparging

If you are fly sparging with just a braid you are definitely getting channeling and not getting a good thorough rinse of the grains. It is also important to keep at least an inch of water above the grain level when fly sparging. This could be a major contributing factor to your poor mash efficiency. Fly sparging should also take about 45-60 minutes to complete.

There is some debate over how much more efficient fly sparging is versus batch sparging. Many people, me included batch sparge with great success

Try to raise your sparge water temperature, many people shoot for anywhere between 175-190F.

For boil off, try to get a read on where you deliver a vigorous boil but not water/wort flying out of the pot and make a mark on your regulator so you can maintain some consistency. Your full mash should be 60 minutes, then drain, then sparge. Once you reach you full pre-boil volume take a gravity reading wither with a refractometer or hydrometer. The hydrometer sample needs to be cooled below 100 and temperature corrected. This reading will usually be about 8-10 points below your estimated OG post boil cooled into the primary.

If you find after trial you are leaving wort in the bottom of the MLT, measure the amount and add the volume to your beersmith equipment as add to batch size, trub loss should be set to 0. So, if you are using a 5 gallon batch size and find .25G left behind make your batch size 5.25. Beersmith will then adjust your required water volumes accordingly.

Hope this all helps! Cheers!

What temperature are you checking your pre-boil gravity at? You really need to cool down the sample to get an accurate reading with your hydrometer.

There are conversion charts, but they can be off a bit. After you have a full kettle, stir the wort slightly and draw off a sample. Put it in the fridge for about 45 min and then record the reading on the hydrometer. Compare it to the initial reading and what the temp conversion charts say.

Ok, I'll try that. I normally just put the hydrometer in the kettle after I'm done sparging.

If you have a single braid, I'd highly recommend you try batch sparging instead.

A single pipe down the center provides uniform water flow to only about 56% of the tun. A false bottom is in the 96% range. In fly sparging, your efficiency depends on how uniformly you can keep water flowing through the grain bed. In batch sparging, it doesn't really matter.


http://byo.com/stories/techniques/a...ing/1016-lautering-efficency-advanced-brewing

OofC_Zer0 said:

Ok, I'll try that. I normally just put the hydrometer in the kettle after I'm done sparging.

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/facepalm. There's 20 points right there if you're reading at 160F.

But your OG (cooled sample from the fermenter) is still 10 to 20 points low, right? My money is on the crush. Batch sparging might help a little, but I'd be shocked to see you gain 20 points from it, especially on high-gravity beers. Might even lose efficiency.

I find that if I make sure to drain my mash tun completely, my efficiency goes up. Any liquid you leave in there once your kettle is full and you start to boil is wasted. Do you have a lot of dead space (volume that you can't drain from the mash tun) or leave a lot of liquid behind when you're done sparging?

OofC_Zer0 said:

how exactly would you suggest that i investigate my grain crush?

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This should answer your crush questions:
http://bit.ly/U0pYxu

Also, see this sticky. It addresses your issues very thoroughly.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/maximizing-efficiency-when-batch-sparging-77125/

OofC_Zer0 said:

Ok, I'll try that. I normally just put the hydrometer in the kettle after I'm done sparging.

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Yes, that does explain why you are 20 points off.

Hydrometers are calibrated to read at 60F. If you are reading 1.040 at 158F in your kettle after sparging, the reading at 60F should be 1.060. There is your missing 20 points.

Please read the instructions that came with your hydrometer. They will only show you the correct gravity at one temperature.

BeerSmith does have a hydrometer correction app, but it is always best to cool the sample to the temperature the hydrometer is calibrated to. The temperature it is calibrated to is listed on the piece of paper inside the hydrometer.

I'm talking OG is low, I usually don't pay any attention to my pre boil gravity. I check it sometimes but it's always off (because it's hot).

This will sound mean, but I know I get 62% efficiency.....I guess I could trouble shoot my efficiency....but I usually just recalculate my recipes based on 62 - 65% efficiency.....and since I am consistently bad at efficiency, it works quite well.

louie0202 said:

This will sound mean, but I know I get 62% efficiency.....I guess I could trouble shoot my efficiency....but I usually just recalculate my recipes based on 62 - 65% efficiency.....and since I am consistently bad at efficiency, it works quite well.

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It's not mean, the important thing is to be consistent regardless of the percentage.

OofC_Zer0 said:

I'm talking OG is low, I usually don't pay any attention to my pre boil gravity. I check it sometimes but it's always off (because it's hot).

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You really should check that preboil s.g.
I use beer smith to adj. my temp difference. I don't know the formula, but im sure someone with more experience on here could help. If you know your pre boil specific gravity is low you would be able to add some dry malt to bring it up or you could fire harder to evaporate more of the water

"This will sound mean, but I know I get 62% efficiency.....I guess I could trouble shoot my efficiency....but I usually just recalculate my recipes based on 62 - 65% efficiency.....and since I am consistently bad at efficiency, it works quite well."

A great example of there being more than 1 way to make great beer.

Personally, I think the steps to take to get from 60ish to 70+% are pretty minimal. eg tweaking some temps, ratios etc. That seems worth it to me, but it might not be for everyone.

dtow2 said:

You really should check that preboil s.g.
I use beer smith to adj. my temp difference. I don't know the formula, but im sure someone with more experience on here could help. If you know your pre boil specific gravity is low you would be able to add some dry malt to bring it up or you could fire harder to evaporate more of the water

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preboil gravity x preboil volume = postboil gravity x postboil volume. Gravity expressed as "gravity units", or (SGx1000)-1000, more simply, 1.056 would be 56.