Help me decide? Portable RIMS/HERMS or?

I've got a 5 gallon SS pot, and a Sanke Keg (15.5 gal) I've got reasonably easy access to legit Sanke Keg if that's the way to go. I'd like to build a system that's:
A: Electric
B: Portable
C: under 30amps

I'd like to run on a single 240 30a outlet, This leaves me with a 1500 element for RIMS and a 5000 element for the BK, with enough left over to run a single March pump, and a PID or two.

What would you build? would you add a IGLOO Mash Tun? I can lay my hands on a second Sanke keg without too much trouble if that's the best route

I decided not to go with RIMS or HERMS on my system (still in construction), because I have a cooler mlt, and its really not necessary. If you do want some method to keep your mash at temp, and you are trying to stay under budget on power, I would go with HERMS, because no only are you holding your mash temp, but you are also heating sparge water.

If I were you I would acquire a second sanke for HLT and BK and build a MLT out of a cooler.

My new rig is under construction, all my parts are on order already. I am building a system with similar goals in mind, portable all electric, and easily powered. Mine will be run from a range plug, 40A 240V.

I decided to go with a RIMS system, using a 50qt coleman extreme cooler, and a converted sanke. I also plan on trying to fly sparge with the RIMS acting as a inline instant water heater... I will have a 4500w element in both the keg and the RIMS.

I went with the rims and the large element to eliminate the HLT completely, to make it easy to transport and take less space to store.

You will probably want to run that 4500w RIMS element at 120v when you are actually recirculating your mash, otherwise you will risk scorching the wort.

mavrick1903 said:

I've got a 5 gallon SS pot, and a Sanke Keg (15.5 gal) I've got reasonably easy access to legit Sanke Keg if that's the way to go. I'd like to build a system that's:
A: Electric
B: Portable
C: under 30amps

I'd like to run on a single 240 30a outlet, This leaves me with a 1500 element for RIMS and a 5000 element for the BK, with enough left over to run a single March pump, and a PID or two.

What would you build? would you add a IGLOO Mash Tun? I can lay my hands on a second Sanke keg without too much trouble if that's the best route

Click to expand...

My $0.02...

HERMS only requires a single element/PID/probe/SSR for a 100% electric system. You use the e-kettle and coil for the mash recirculation, then use the e-kettle again for boiling, and the coil again for chilling.

No single-use equipment like the RIMS tube. Lower cost, too.


edit: with an insulated cooler for a mash tun, the benefits of HERMS or RIMS are diminshed. Those systems are a means of maintaining mash temps, which the cooler MLTs do pretty damn well on their own. I would suggest moving to a stainless MLT if you have access to the keg and are going to build a HERMS or RIMS.

Walker said:

My $0.02...

HERMS only requires a single element/PID/probe/SSR for a 100% electric system. You use the e-kettle and coil for the mash recirculation, then use the e-kettle again for boiling, and the coil again for chilling.

No single-use equipment like the RIMS tube. Lower cost, too.


edit: with an insulated cooler for a mash tun, the benefits of HERMS or RIMS are diminshed. Those systems are a means of maintaining mash temps, which the cooler MLTs do pretty damn well on their own. I would suggest moving to a stainless MLT if you have access to the keg and are going to build a HERMS or RIMS.

Click to expand...

The plan is to eventually move to another converted keg for a mash tun. I did originally plan on building a herms system, but I believe that the rims setup gives me more flexibility. For example with the two vessel herms you described it would be impossible to fly sparge. Where as with my rims I can use the tube to heat the fly sparge water on demand, OR I can use my kettle to heat water for a batch sparge. Just my $0.02.

HHP said:

You will probably want to run that 4500w RIMS element at 120v when you are actually recirculating your mash, otherwise you will risk scorching the wort.

Click to expand...

That was the original plan, but after doing some reading I found a couple of people who were successful running at 240v with high powered elements (4500w, 5500w) during mashing, by limiting the pulse length and cycle time of the element. So I plan to test that method first, but if not a spdt relay will be a cheap addition to allow for 120/240v switching.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most PIDs don't have options for pulse duration/cycle time unless they are in manual mode. The BCS was how guys like Sizz accomplished this. Anyone know of a PID that runs in both modes?

eric_pwb said:

The plan is to eventually move to another converted keg for a mash tun.

Click to expand...

I was actually talking to the OP with my comment, but you do have a good point about the fly sparging thing.

In the spirit of K.I.S.S. and portable, I was picturing single tier and single pump, which makes fly sparging impossible.

edit:... unless you are able to do instant hot water heating for sparging with the RIMS. If that works out (I think some folks have done it succesfully on here) then the RIMS dioes give you that option.

Bobby_M said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most PIDs don't have options for pulse duration/cycle time unless they are in manual mode. The BCS was how guys like Sizz accomplished this. Anyone know of a PID that runs in both modes?

Click to expand...

AFIK you are correct, I forgot to mention that I will be using a brewtroller, I haven't looked in depth at the code, but I plan on modifying it to suit my purposes. But without a bcs or brewtroller a person could use this setup with a spdt switch to be able to switch from 240v to 120v at will

Walker said:

I was actually talking to the OP with my comment, but you do have a good point about the fly sparging thing.

In the spirit of K.I.S.S. and portable, I was picturing single tier and single pump, which makes fly sparging impossible.

edit:... unless you are able to do instant hot water heating for sparging with the RIMS. If that works out (I think some folks have done it succesfully on here) then the RIMS dioes give you that option.

Click to expand...

So, would I be able to fly sparge (fly sparge is a recirc sparge, no?) using a HERMS kettle as the BK? I guess what I'm wondering, is can I do fly sparging with a single pump (add one tier) and using ONLY TWO Sanke kegs, and a pump? Would one keg then be with the element, and coil, the other with in/out ports and that's all? Should I be monitoring temp on both kegs?

If there are good links that show what you feel as good examples, please feel free. I'm going mental trying to decipher all the info that's out there, and come up with a plan...

fly sparging is kind of "old school". when you are done with the mash (meaning... you have mashed grain for 60 minutes or whatever), you start to slowly drain the mash runnings to the kettle. At the same time as this is happening, you slowly sprinkle hot sparge water onto the top of the mash. so, liquid is both going into and coming out of the MLT until your kettle has what you need/want in it. No recirculation happening during this process.

There are a ton of ways to do things, and it would be hard to summarize all the options.

Maybe you can define your constraints a little better and then some options can be presented?

Like:
Do you have a budget in mind for this project?
Do you want to restrict it to 1 vessel? 2 vessels? 3 vessels?
Do you want no-sparge (all water goes into the system at the start)? Batch sparge (one large dump of water is used to sparge)? Fly sparge (the slow-and-continuous addition of sparge water)?
Do you want to use multiple tiers to make use of gravity to move liquids, or just pump everything around?

Walker said:

fly sparging is kind of "old school". when you are done with the mash (meaning... you have mashed grain for 60 minutes or whatever)

Click to expand...

Technicality: You mean mash rest. Mashing is the process of adding grain to water. Mash rest is letting the enzymes do their thing. I'm not trying to step on toes and I don't really know much about rims/herms. Just keeping it clear to any potential lurkers.

jeepinjeepin said:

Technicality: You mean mash rest. Mashing is the process of adding grain to water. Mash rest is letting the enzymes do their thing. I'm not trying to step on toes and I don't really know much about rims/herms. Just keeping it clear to any potential lurkers.

Click to expand...

That depends on where you look up the definition, but I'll call it mash rest if you prefer.

"Hey, Walker... whatcha doing?"
"Mash resting my porter."

jeepinjeepin said:

Technicality: You mean mash rest. Mashing is the process of adding grain to water. Mash rest is letting the enzymes do their thing. I'm not trying to step on toes and I don't really know much about rims/herms. Just keeping it clear to any potential lurkers.

Click to expand...

I thought "doughing in" was used to describe adding grain to water, and "mashing" was the conversion process (consisting of one or more rests)?

I could be wrong.

TB

it's irrelevant and we're getting

No problem, carry on.

Walker said:

Maybe you can define your constraints a little better and then some options can be presented?

Like:
Do you have a budget in mind for this project?
Do you want to restrict it to 1 vessel? 2 vessels? 3 vessels?
Do you want no-sparge (all water goes into the system at the start)? Batch sparge (one large dump of water is used to sparge)? Fly sparge (the slow-and-continuous addition of sparge water)?
Do you want to use multiple tiers to make use of gravity to move liquids, or just pump everything around?

Click to expand...

Do you have a budget in mind for this project? Just dont want to get crazy. Budget is not a hard number, but one pump not two (partly because of the extra cost) should help set the tone. on the flip, extra hose or connections is not a real concern. I'm also open to a second element/PID and have space for it in my control box.

Do you want to restrict it to 1 vessel? 2 vessels? 3 vessels? Portable for me in my Ford Explorer, so to me that means no more than two vessels would be prefered, but I accept that two would be needed. three only if there is a strong argument for it.

Do you want no-sparge (all water goes into the system at the start)? Batch sparge (one large dump of water is used to sparge)? Fly sparge (the slow-and-continuous addition of sparge water)?From all the reading I've managed so far, I could accept the brew efficiency loss from not sparging, and also tend to lean towards the temp increase to stop the enzyme reaction as unneeded as the wort is about to be boiled. I do think that step mashing would be a reasonable goal, raising temp to seek certain sugars? or is that only really possible with RIMS?

Do you want to use multiple tiers to make use of gravity to move liquids, or just pump everything around? to remain portable, 2 tiers would be ok, more seems like a draw back against portability. I do plan on one pump, and can figure in an upper/lower two tier to provide gravity..

jeepinjeepin said:

Technicality: You mean mash rest. Mashing is the process of adding grain to water. Mash rest is letting the enzymes do their thing. I'm not trying to step on toes and I don't really know much about rims/herms. Just keeping it clear to any potential lurkers.

Click to expand...

Technicality: You mean saccharification rest. I've never even heard someone call it a "mash rest" before. We just all call it "mashing."

Here's a good source of info pertaining to this topic.

You've got a lot of options available, but one comment about step mashing.

again... it's a technicality/semantics thing, but neither RIMS nor HERMS is capable of a 'true' step mash according to folks who are sticklers for rules. Step mashing means you have an extremely rapid rise from one temp to the next, taking place almost instantly.

What can be done with recirulating systems is a slower temp increase. More of a 'ramp' than a 'step' simply because it takes a couple minutes to change temps. But, I can testify to the fact that a HERMS can do it. I don't do multiple rests on my mash, but I have many times done a temp rise at the end of the process to get things up to 170*F. For a 5 gallon batch, I can make the change from 152*F to 170*F in about 5 minutes with my system (5500W element in my kettle with the HERMS coil).

Personally, I think a couple minutes to make a temp change is close enough to a 'step' mash, so I would say you are going to be able to do whatever you want.

anyway... back to options for your system....

1 or 2 vessel
1 pump
1 or 2 electric elements
1 or 2 tier
no-sparge is acceptable to you



a brutus 20 type system could be done.

- MLT on top tier circulating mash through a RIMS using one PID
- E-kettle on bottom tier heating strike water while mash is happening with second PID
- when mash is done, create the full loop: MLT flows into e-kettle while e-kettle is pumped up into MLT. circulate like that until the gravity at all places is the same and then shut off the pump and let the MLT drain into the e-kettle

2 PIDs, 2 probes, 2 elements, 2 vessels, 2 tiers, 1 pump... not sure how to classify that kind of sparging.


A no-sparge RIMS could be done

- MLT on top tier with half the water in it
- E-kettle on bottom tier with half the water in it
- let gravity drain MLT to kettle and use pump to return it to MLT
- circulate in that full loop using just the element in the kettle to maintain temps

I have no idea how well this would work, but it uses:
1 PID, 1 probe, 1 elements, 2 vessels, 2 tiers, 1 pump, no-sparge.
You would have longer 'ramp' times on your mash stages because you would have to heat all of the water up instead of a fraction of it like a system that uses sparging.

A no-sparge HERMS could be done

- MLT with all the water in it
- E-kettle with just enough water to cover the element and coil.
- pump MLT through coil and back into MLT
- when done with the mash, dump the water out of the e-kettle and pump MLT into it.

I have no idea how well this would work, but it uses:
1 PID, 1 probe, 1 elements, 2 vessels, 1 tier, 1 pump, no-sparge.
You would have longer 'ramp' times on your mash stages because you would have to heat all of the water up instead of a fraction of it like a system that uses sparging.

I have actually been thinking about trying this on my system at home, just to see how well it works.

A fly-sparge RIMS could be done
This is what eric was talking about.

- MLT with just the necessary water for mash in it
- E-kettle empty at the start of things.
- pump MLT through RIMS tube and back into MLT for mash.
- when done with the mash, slowly pump MLT into kettle at the same time as ground water from a hose is pushed through the RIMS tube to be heated to sparge temps on-the-fly

2 PIDs, 2 probes, 2 elements, 2 vessels, 1 tier, 1 pump, fly-sparge.
or, if you are OK with waiting until sparge is completely done before you start heating wort to a boil in the kettle, then it means that you don't need two elements running at the same time. You can switch which element is being controlled by the PID.
1 PID, 1 probe, 2 elements, 2 vessels, 1 tier, 1 pump, fly-sparge.

I am sure there are other options. This is just what I immediately thought of.

Keep in mind that to stay under 30A, you are going to have to be mindful of element sizes in any system that uses 2 elements and wants them to be capable of running at the same time.

I know you are wanting to stay away from a third vessel, but here's a comment: if you ferment in buckets, then you are going to have a third vessel with you. In my system, my third vessel holds only hot water, and only for a few minutes. I happen to use a keg (because I had it), but it could just as well be a plastic bucket, too.

My system is a batch-sparge HERMS
1 PID, 1 probe, 1 elements, 3 vessels, 1 tier, 1 pump, batch-sparge.

Check out my build here. It's a two vessel RIMS. I fly sparge through the RIMS. I average around 90% efficiency now that I have my grain crush dialed in. The best part is that I can and have packed it up and done brews away from home. Overall I'm very happy with it. Fly sparging is pretty easy once you get the hang of balancing the flow.