50 gal batches - what to use for MLT

I am trying to mock up a way to upgrade our batches to the 50 gallon range.

The kettle and fermentation are straight forward enough - just spend some money.

I am having trouble figuring out a way to come up with a straightforward solution to doing a mash this large.

Would you guys say it's ok to use two coolers for this? Say two 150qt coolers? Trying to get a single cooler in the 250qt range is expensive but two 150qt coolers are much more reasonable.

What would be the pitfalls/pros/cons of doing something like this?

I would love to hear what people with experience use?

I should mention we are trying to keep our costs down as this is basically a pilot system to be used for a year or two and then hopefully upgraded again to pro setup.

You might keep checking the classifieds at probrewer.com. I have seen mash tuns for 2 bbl systems for sale. If that is out of your price range, look into usplastic.com. They have large food-safe drums for sale for relatively low $$$. You could wrap insulation around it and drill for drain fittings.

Not sure if either will help you, but worth a look...

Are you trying to setup a small brewery or have a "group" brew day?

Kulprit said:

What would be the pitfalls/pros/cons of doing something like this?

Click to expand...

Inconsistency. The coolers won't be 100% the same, and it will be a pain to make sure everything is perfectly split and balanced between the two. If you're trying to dial in the system and get results out of it that you can easily reproduce, it just throws another variable in there.

I'd suggest looking into plastic 55 gallon food-grade drums. You can usually pick those up for a song at local places that only use them once. There's a guy on craigslist by me that sells them for $15! A few layers of foil bubble wrap insulation on that and you're good to go.

When you get to that size mash tun, it holds heat pretty well just due to the sheer size of it, so that much insulation should be enough.

+1 on the 55 gal poly drum.

You can do much better on the insulation than bubble wrap. Check out the sheet insulation available at McMaster-Carr.

What type would be best?
http://www.mcmaster.com/#insulation-sheets/

looking at the table, the bubble wrap has the highest R-value of the available flexible insulation... all the other ones are rigid, as far as I can tell?

I don't think the bubble wrap is such a bad choice, you just have to wrap it a few times around. I'm going to be trying out some of the semi rigid mineral wool board which seems to be flexible enough to wrap around a 16" diameter at least. It would have to be jacketed without something to protect it.

One of the nice things about the foil bubble wrap is you can use velcro to secure it. So you can take it off to clean up the particles of grain that inevitably get in there

Bokonon said:

One of the nice things about the foil bubble wrap is you can use velcro to secure it. So you can take it off to clean up the particles of grain that inevitably get in there

Click to expand...

You clean those out? I thought they gave the beer extra escence after decaying a bit.

I'm piecing together a 55 gallon stainless drum system and its coming together nicely. I would recommend looking into stainless drums and having a custom false bottom made.

I think I have seen people use those big trashcans.

Bobby_M said:

I don't think the bubble wrap is such a bad choice, you just have to wrap it a few times around. I'm going to be trying out some of the semi rigid mineral wool board which seems to be flexible enough to wrap around a 16" diameter at least. It would have to be jacketed without something to protect it.

Click to expand...

How about 2" wide strips of solid foam insulation glued to the outside, a layer of bubble wrap on top of that, and expanding foam injected in all of the remaining space?

winstonofbeer said:

Are you trying to setup a small brewery or have a "group" brew day?

Click to expand...

Small brewery. So yeah it would need to be consistent.

Thanks for the leads guys - I will definitely look into these.

Anyone got any pics of one?

Would something like this work?

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/pr...=USPlastic&category_name=25&product_id=15696#

With $15 estimated shipping it's MUCH cheaper then the cooler route. Even if you figure in the cost of insulating it it's still way cheaper.

MacBruver said:

What type would be best?
http://www.mcmaster.com/#insulation-sheets/

looking at the table, the bubble wrap has the highest R-value of the available flexible insulation... all the other ones are rigid, as far as I can tell?

Click to expand...

This is the stuff I was referring to. I guess the bubble wrap works out to be a little less expensive. The R factors are pretty close.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#9385k53/=4g3wo1

I got a couple 55g plastic barrels that were used for wine or vinegar. I used one to make a turn style composter but I am sure you could use it for a mash tun too with some moding.

They were only $10

Just re-read my previous post, it may need some clarification.

The bubble wrap is 5/16" thick. The foam is 1". Both have a K-factor of ~.25. This value is based on a thickness of 1". So it takes 3 layers of the bubble to get the same R factor as one layer of the foam.

Three layers of the bubble still comes out a little cheaper but the foam may provide a cleaner build. Pick your poison.

You can find a barrel from a local source for sure for under $20...I have a about 6 15 gallons ones I got from the "Barrel Man".

MacBruver said:

What type would be best?
http://www.mcmaster.com/#insulation-sheets/

looking at the table, the bubble wrap has the highest R-value of the available flexible insulation... all the other ones are rigid, as far as I can tell?

Click to expand...

You should really look in to "P-2000" it is flexible and had an amazing R value for it's thickness.

I really think having a huge R-value is overkill on something of this size. It is going to retain a ton of heat due to it's mass. You are only talking 60 - 90 mins in a typical single infusion mash. I haven't done any calculations, but a typical grain bill for a batch this size will be in the 110lb range, so your typical strike water is looking at around 35 gallons. I can't see this much liquid losing much more than a degree or 2 an hour if un-protected. I think a small amount of insulation would cut that in half. HDPE has decent protection againts heat transfer for it's thickness, so most of your heat would prbably escape through the top. A lid would kill most of that.

I know from being in the industry that a 1/2 bbl keg (15.5 gals) will loose on average 2-4 degrees per hour, and that is though a metal skin (better heat transfer than plastic).

Again, I am speaking in generalities, and not trying start a debate, but I don't think heavy insulation is really needed so, save the money, go cheap. If it doesn't work, you are only out a little cash, but I think you will be fine.

I am looking for leads locally right now.

No luck on craigslist

Anyone mind sharing how they found their guy? Are their particular stores/vendors I should go and ask that might have some laying around?

Hey Kulprit, if you haven't figured out your fermentation tanks yet, have a look at this:

http://plastic-mart.com/class.php?item=138

looks to be pretty affordable. I have no idea about quality as I have never used this company before....

McSwiggin' said:

Hey Kulprit, if you haven't figured out your fermentation tanks yet, have a look at this:

http://plastic-mart.com/class.php?item=138

looks to be pretty affordable. I have no idea about quality as I have never used this company before....

Click to expand...

Thanks for the lead - very similar to stuff I have already looked at. Have to compare it with shipping etc. Seems to be quite a few solutions out there for fermentation for a fairly affordable price - especially if your buying 6-7 of them to start.

Kulprit said:

I am trying to mock up a way to upgrade our batches to the 50 gallon range.

The kettle and fermentation are straight forward enough - just spend some money.

I am having trouble figuring out a way to come up with a straightforward solution to doing a mash this large.

Would you guys say it's ok to use two coolers for this? Say two 150qt coolers? Trying to get a single cooler in the 250qt range is expensive but two 150qt coolers are much more reasonable.

What would be the pitfalls/pros/cons of doing something like this?

I would love to hear what people with experience use?

I should mention we are trying to keep our costs down as this is basically a pilot system to be used for a year or two and then hopefully upgraded again to pro setup.

Click to expand...

Ah. I have a 20 gallon Blichmann kettle. It's pretty nice. But, not as sturdy as my 15 gallon Polarware. Those are nice and hefty!

Northernbrewer and other sites sell 20 and 25 gallon Polareware kettles with false bottoms that fit real snug. Wrap some insulation around it. That'll give you the flexibility to do multi-step mashes by applying heat to the tun.

I am a fan of the Blichmann false bottom slotted screen design... That gives a real good sparge. I am curious if it would fit snug into the Polarware kettle. I actually have never tried.

What do you have in mind for a fermenter?

I've been thinking of getting into the fermenter fabrication business. Due to the family business I have union sheetmetal workers (local #17) at my fingertips.

Toledo Metal Spinning sells all the requistite parts for building fermenters but the conical design is a waste of brewery space. An angular-box hopper as the base for a fermenter would be fantastic. 24"x24"x24" is about 50 gallons! but I digress we were discussing mash tuns.

Why not just get a brute garbage can and spray foam the outside? Either build or buy a container bigger than the garbage can, and spray in layers of great stuff. if you're looking for longevity, you could epoxy/fiberglass the top of the foam. That would make the whole thing water/wort/grain tight.

Since you're doing a brewery, I dont' see the point of cheaping out. If the tun was for a club brew day that's gonna get used once a month, sure. But if you're brewing a lot, I'd want something that will hold up.

JMO.

B

just food for thought. bis (2-ethylhexyl) phthalate leaches out of plastic and is not exactly good for you. i'm an envl scientist and find this anywhere there is exposure of h20 to plastics like pvc, even food grade. here's a lil info:

"It can be absorbed from food and water. Higher levels have been found in milk and cheese. It can also leach into a liquid that comes in contact with the plastic;"

i would go with stainless steel if i were you. i am not a fan of all grain cooler setups for these reasons, i try to stick with SS and glass whenever possible. maybe this whole "spiel" belongs in a different forum...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bis(2-ethylhexyl)_phthalate
http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/eth-phth.html

jessup said:

just food for thought. bis (2-ethylhexyl) phthalate leaches out of plastic and is not exactly good for you. i'm an envl scientist and find this anywhere there is exposure of h20 to plastics like pvc, even food grade. here's a lil info:

"It can be absorbed from food and water. Higher levels have been found in milk and cheese. It can also leach into a liquid that comes in contact with the plastic;"

i would go with stainless steel if i were you. i am not a fan of all grain cooler setups for these reasons, i try to stick with SS and glass whenever possible. maybe this whole "spiel" belongs in a different forum...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bis(2-ethylhexyl)_phthalate
http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/eth-phth.html

Click to expand...

A few things:
- None of the plastics discussed here are PVC, which is the only plastic for which there is an elevated risk of phthalate exposure. Used food barrels are all HDPE

- Even then, only soft PVC presents a real risk, because phthalates are "plasticisers" used to make plastics softer and soft PVC has a lot more of them

- It's found in higher levels in milk and cheese because it's more readily absorbed by nonpolar solvents (i.e., high in fat). Beer/wort is not one of these

- A lot of municipal water pipes in use in the country are made of PVC... chances are, the water anybody would uses in brewing has already had plenty of contact with PVC

While BPA and Phthalates are bad, understanding when/how exposure happens is important. Not all plastics are bad, and even the "bad" plastics are only bad under certain circumstances.

I'm pretty new to this, so this may be completely off base. I was just thinking that if you're making 50 gal batches, a 55 gal MLT might limit your OG to under about 1.070, unless you add extract or other fermentables. This may not be an issue for most brewers, but I really like higher gravity IIPA's and barlywines. I really like the idea of the HDPE barrels, as they can be had around here for about $10-$15 each. The savings might make it well worth making the batch a little smaller for the times you do brew higher gravity batches. Maybe I'll pick up a 15 gal HDPE barrel for use as an MLT so that I can increase my batch size from 5 gal to 10.

A small group of brewers and myself recently upgraded to a 40+ gallon brewery.
The strike water is heated in a 15 gallon ss kettle. Mashing is done in a Rubbermaid marine type cooler with a capacity of 160 ish qts. $60 on sale from Sam's Club. We have an electric hot liquor heating system that outputs 1/2 gallon per minute at 170 degs within 2 minutes of powering up. This we flow over 55# of grains in the cooler/mlt and pump into a 46 gallon homemade brew kettle. The cooler would certainly hold a bit more grains but our kettle is the limiting factor.
We fill to about 42 gallons and boil off to yield about 40 gallons of wort.
The immersion chiller is 50 feet of 1/2 copper tubing with 120 volt ac motor spinning 3 homemade propellers at 60 rpm to keep the hot wort from stratifying. It drops 40 gallons at 212 degs to <70 degs in 25 minutes.
Quite simple but it has taken 12 years of experimenting with various techniques to get to the point where the ingredients just seem to want to turn into beer.
Fancy equipment makes brewing easy but it still takes a brewer that knows what he is doing to make good beer.
Good luck from West Michigan.
aa8jz

JuanMoore said:

I'm pretty new to this, so this may be completely off base. I was just thinking that if you're making 50 gal batches, a 55 gal MLT might limit your OG to under about 1.070, unless you add extract or other fermentables. This may not be an issue for most brewers, but I really like higher gravity IIPA's and barlywines.

Click to expand...

Well... you can always just make a slightly smaller batch of a big beer. You can still get a little over 30 gallons of 1.100 barley wine out of a setup like that.

aa8jzdial said:

We fill to about 42 gallons and boil off to yield about 40 gallons of wort.

Click to expand...

You only boil off a total of two gallons? that seems really low...

The kettle is undersquare. Tall and skinny. The boil surface exposed to air is not much greater then our 15 gallon kettle and hence the evaporation rate is not real significant. On top of that I am not measuring all that precisely how much wort we start with and how much we end with. I know 55# grain=close to
8 carboys near full at og of 1.042 or so. Our goal is to make a large quantity of good beer that is reasonably repeatable. If the need is for 50 gallons of high gravity beer our system is close but not quite there.
Over the years we as a group have found that beers over 1.050 are too filling, make you fat, make you drunk and don't appeal to the majority of regular folks.
1.040 og and life is just more pleasant imho.
All this chatter has me thirsty. Let me refill my glass.
rick in W. Mi.