No Sparge (NOT BIAB)

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MBM30075

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I like the control I have over a batch of all grain. It allows me to go cheaper, but still turn out quality beer. It also allows me to really fine-tune what taste I want. What I don't like is how long and involved the process is. I recently did an all-extract batch on my stove and was reminded how fun and quick brewing can be.

So, with that in mind, I was toying with ideas of how to simplify all-grain brewing. I know that the idea I came up with causes decreased efficiency (which, in turn, drives the price of a batch up), but I'm wondering what other consequences (good and bad) occur as a result.

So, I was brewing a simple Bavarian Hefeweizen.

***************************
Ingredients:
5 lb. Belgian 2-Row
5 lb. German Wheat
.5 lb. Munich
.5 oz. Tettnang (3.8%)
Danstar German Wheat yeast
***************************

I have a 5 gallon Home Depot water cooler that I use as my mash tun. I doughed in with 3.5 gallons water. My mash temperature started at 154 and ended 60 minutes later at 152.5. I re-circulated several quarts of wort until I had reduced the particles a good bit, but still didn't have clear wort. So, I ended up passing the runnings through a filter into my boil kettle. I don't yet have a good way to measure large volumes of liquid (I'm working on it!), so I'm not sure exactly what volume of wort I drew off. I added 3 gallons of water to the kettle and began my boil as usual.

I ended up with somewhere between 3.5 and 4 gallons of wort at the end of my boil. I expected an efficiency of about 50%, and if I got 4 gallons of wort at the end, then I hit my target OG of 1.049.

Sweet wort tasted good; color was right on; activity commenced within 4 hours of pitching.

I know that my efficiency suffered, but I'm OK with that, especially considering that this brew still only cost $22. If I get 4 gallons of nice hefe, I will consider this a victory!

I'm wondering (besides waste) what other consequences there are to this technique. Obviously, I couldn't create a very high-gravity batch using this setup, although I'm considering a 2nd mash tun, which would allow me to mash up to about 28 pounds of grain. So, I get that I'm not maximizing my efficiency, but what does that do?

I've heard that this will result in a maltier, richer beer. Since I know you can over-sparge and get tannins and other undesirables in your wort, is this a "safer" route? Does sparging pull out anything else that my method misses?

One more question: When I cleaned out my mash tun and removed the grains and false bottom, it became very clear that my false bottom had not done a very good job; I had about 50%+ of my dead space filled with grain! If this is the case, am I wasting time and effort using the false bottom? Should I just forget the false bottom and send my wort through a filter into my brew pot? That would speed up the time from when I crack the spigot to when I'm done draining, right?

Thanks!
 
I'm just curious why you think adding 3 gallons of water directly to the kettle is that much easier than dumping that into the mash tun after your first draining. 50% efficiency for the sake of higher quality wort seems really wasteful. You're not going to oversparge with a single batch sparge.

I don't see any benefit to using a false bottom if you're not fly sparging. A stainless braid works great for what you're doing.
 
To add those 3 gallons properly, I need to add another pot and have that water heating while I'm draining my mash. Plus, there's additional time of about an hour if I want to do the sparge correctly, according to what I read on here.

Simpler + Quicker + Higher Quality Wort = Worth it (for me)

At least, I'm thinking so.

As for the braid, I'm not sure I can use it. I've currently got a setup where my drain is a standard brew bucket spigot made of nylon. I don't think the SS braid will hook into this. If I run the wort through a bucket-top mesh filter, wouldn't this have the set net effect? I've heard HSA isn't a concern for homebrewers. Is this true? (I ask because it seems that the splashing of the wort into the brew kettle will aerate it and COULD introduce HSA, if it's a problem to worry about).

Thanks!
 
Fly sparging takes a little while longer but not batch sparging. You'd actually be better off taking 3 gallons of warm/hot tap water and stirring that into your grain for a sparge than adding it to the brew pot. In fact, adding cold water sparge would be better than not at all. It's not more complicated or time consuming and I'd put "lightly" sparged wort against no sparge any day.

If I'm not mistaken, a bucket spigot uses regular 1/2" NPT threads. Bring it with you to Lowes/HD and see if you can put a 1/2" female NPT to 1/2" hose barb fitting on there. Then use a hose clamp to attach the braid.

You could run it through a strainer but it's not going to hold all the grain in one shot.
 
But how much grain will actually come out? If I do a reasonable speed of draining, wouldn't the bucket-top filter be enough to catch the stray grains? (I'm going to check on the braid, though).

Cold water sparge... just grab whatever sugars are left behind by the mash and easily picked up by a rinse?
 
That's pretty much the point of sparging in all cases. I see what you're saying about trying to pour the liquid off the mash but you'll get a lot more wort out by letting it gravity drain out of the grain.
 
I don't think you do see what I'm saying.

When I drain my mash, I use the spigot at the bottom of the tun. If I do that without using either a false bottom or a braid, how much grain will exit the bottom of the tun (i.e., through the spigot)? If it's a relatively small amount, then couldn't I just pass this stream through a bucket-top filter on its way into my kettle to filter out the grain husks and particles? That way, almost all of the grain is still in my mash tun and ready for the warm water sparge. Also, that way I don't have to purchase another expensive piece of equipment (SS braid at my LHBS is $30+).

See now? I'm draining, not pouring off.
 
Ok, I get it now. The thing is, a "plug" of grain is going to settle into the opening and the draining is going to go pretty slow. The thing with the braid is that there is a large surface area with thousands of small holes holding the grain back. It will drain much faster.

My favorite braid is actually the ones over by the water heaters. They run about $7 but the diameter is larger and it seems to be a bit more sturdy than the sink/toilet supply ones. Same rules apply though. You hack both ends off and remove the inner hose.
 
You could also fold over the open end of the braided hose a couple of times and squeeze it flat with a pair of pliers. An extra 3-5 gallon pot is a must. The steel ones with speckled black enamel are super cheap and good for heating your sparge water. An easy way to measure large quantities of water is to fill a gallon or half gallon milk jug (thats been cleaned properly of course), dump it in your boil kettle. Measure down to the surface of the water from the top of the kettle. Write down this measurement. Dump in another jug full and measure/write down...and so on. Or make a story stick. A stick with markings for each full or half gallon from the surface of water/wort to the top of the kettle.
 
Drain your tun into your fermentation bucket, or pick one up for $8. This way your kettle can be heating your sparge water AND you'll have some estimate of the volume you are getting out.
 
As I was writing a response to this, I came up with a potential for an easy fly-sparging setup.

So, currently, I have a 5 gallon home depot cooler setup. What about this:

1. Get another 5 gallon home depot cooler.
2. Install a nylon spigot like I have on my current rig.
3. While mash is resting, heat the additional water needed (*see below*) to proper sparge temperature.
4. When proper sparge temperature is reached, put the water into the 2nd home depot cooler with lid on (which should hold temperature fairly well).
5. When mash is ready to drain, place 2nd home depot cooler just above first (with lid off the first) and open both drains to the same spot (trying to ensure equal flow rates).
6. Monitor flow rate so mash tun doesn't overflow and grain is covered with water until sparge water cooler runs dry.
7. Drain mash tun until "empty".

Questions:
1. If I'm using an SS braid instead of a false bottom, would channeling be an issue to worry about?
2. If not, how fast could steps #5 thru #7 be carried out?
3. Would it make sense to stir the grain while this step is occurring?
3. Would this actually work? If so, what are the drawbacks?
4. I'm assuming that the water temp. would not be precisely ideal during the sparge, but what's the real effect on the final product?
5. If I get a 3 tier setup to do this, i.e., mash tun draining into brew kettle on burner, at what volume could I begin heating the wort for boil?

If this does work, then it seems like a couple of wooden racks and a second cooler would make my brew day a lot less hassle, but it still wouldn't be 7 hours like my first all-grain batch!

Thoughts?

Thanks!
 
On the questions.

1. Yes. You asked for simple so my suggestion was batch sparging instead of no sparging. For that application a braid is better than a FB. For fly sparging, stick with the FB and figure out a way to hold the thing down better.

2. Fly sparging for a 5 gallons batch should take at least 25 minutes but up to 40 minutes would be more efficient.

3. No stirring during fly sparging.

3. (2nd #3 in the list) Yes, people fly sparge on a system like that every day.

4. Go into your HLT cooler at about 190F so that it hits the grain at about 180F.

5. Apply heat when you have about a gallon of wort in the kettle.
 
Well, when I used the false bottom this weekend, a TON of grain seemed to get below it and then come out of the spigot. Should I keep using the false bottom but still throw a braid in below it? I mean, I probably had about 1-2 lbs. of wet grain BELOW my false bottom on Saturday.

What's up with that? Draining too fast?

I stirred vigorously at dough-in and again 10 minutes before draining the sweet wort. Then, I recirculated about 8 quarts, trying to get clear wort and never quite got there, so I just drained into my brew kettle straining the wort as it went. Should I not have stirred the second time? Would a false bottom + braid give me clearer wort more quickly?

By the way, the false bottom was in the proper place, I'm just thinking that its holes were bigger than a lot of the crushed grain, so they simply slipped through. I really don't think the grain got by it because it wasn't positioned properly. Should I ask for a coarser crush at my LHBS?

Also, when fly sparging, do you recirculate to clear the wort before draining into the brew kettle?

Thanks!
 
Fly sparging takes a little while longer but not batch sparging. You'd actually be better off taking 3 gallons of warm/hot tap water and stirring that into your grain for a sparge than adding it to the brew pot. In fact, adding cold water sparge would be better than not at all. It's not more complicated or time consuming and I'd put "lightly" sparged wort against no sparge any day.

If I'm not mistaken, a bucket spigot uses regular 1/2" NPT threads. Bring it with you to Lowes/HD and see if you can put a 1/2" female NPT to 1/2" hose barb fitting on there. Then use a hose clamp to attach the braid.

You could run it through a strainer but it's not going to hold all the grain in one shot.


It's actually 3/4"...so you could do it this way....

Valve.JPG


Spigot - 3/4" cpvc female adapter - 3/4" to 1/2" cpvc bushing - 1/2" cpvc - ss braid - brass plug. Just cut the 1/2" pipe so it's ~1/2" long, then clamp the water heater braid to that. The brass plug on the other end will hold it on the bottom. You might be able to find a 3/4"x1/2" female adapter, and skip the bushing.

So this would add about $15 to your current setup, and you won't have a false bottom to mess with,

Later,
 
For sure it does take more recirculation to get a false bottom tun to clear. You're right, a lot of smaller particles do make it below due to the 1/8" diameter holes. If you drain off about 1.5 gallons and carefully add it back to the top of the grainbed, it should finally flush the grain from the underside.
 
Wow, I think I'll go with a false bottom AND a braid, then. Should need less recirc then, right?
 
@mthompson,

Beautiful picture! (And I love the scripture, too!) I got my braid last night and tried several different hookups. I DID get it to work with a 3/4" spigot running into a 3/4" to 3/4" (Female to Female) MIP brass coupling, going into a 3/4" MIP to 3/4" hose barb nylon adapter. Then, I clamped the SS braid to the hose barb. On the other end, I put another nylon 3/4" hose barb to 3/4" MIP and then capped with a CPVC end cap.

Here's a picture:

IMG_02901.JPG


And I can still fit my false bottom over it (MOSTLY flush with the bottom of the tun):

IMG_02913.JPG


It's a lot more complicated than I wanted (and a lot longer, so I may cut it off to make a straight line), and it ended up costing me about $32, including the necessary Dremel cutoff wheels. So, I didn't save any money over the $32 SS braid at my LHBS, but I DID get to make something! (My son is proud of me!)

So, I was looking at your design and wondering about making it simpler. Since I'm already going to use my false bottom (Hey, I bought it, right?), what if I skipped the SS braid and just continued using the 1/2" CPVC?

Or, what if I simply went to 3/4" CPVC? Then, I could drill a whole bunch of REALLY small holes (like 1/16") all over the pipe and it could still serve pretty much the same purpose, right? Any downsides?

Thanks!
 
Looks good, there are a million ways to connect these things, and they'll each work. You could just get a 3/4" cpvc female adapter, a 4' stick of 3/4" cpvc, a 45 elbow, and some other elbows....then use that to make a manifold and drill holes are cut slits on the bottom half. The 45 elbow would act as a dip tube of sorts. With the one on my straight to ss braid, I leave behind two cups (without the grains, and tipped or not), so with the grains I figure ~1cup.

The only other idea I had with your ss braid setup is the issue with disassembly/cleaning. I went with the slip fittings for the braid connection, so that I can just pull it off, unscrew the ball valve on the outside, and the whole thing is out. Maybe takes 30 secs. Your setup seems like you'd have to unscrew a few more pieces.

Looks good either way.
 
When I was using a braid in a cooler, I NEVER disassembled it for cleaning. I hosed the grain out on the lawn and squirted hose water back through the bulkhead drain. Let air dry. Done.
 
When I was using a braid in a cooler, I NEVER disassembled it for cleaning. I hosed the grain out on the lawn and squirted hose water back through the bulkhead drain. Let air dry. Done.

When I leak-tested mine with water when I first set it up, I drained it and left it together on the cooler....came back to it a few days later and there was still water on the bottom of the cooler and int the braid. It'd be safe, I'm sure, but it's not much more effort for me to pull it out and dump it in the sink, run a tube brush though it along with the rest of the equipment during cleanup. Once its all dry on the sink rack, I throw it all into the cooler, put my boil kettle down in there as well, and slide it under the storage self.

I don't like having the ball valve and everything else hanging out there, 'cause I know I would trip over it and break it one day. It's all just personal preference.....:mug:
 
Well, so much for the path I was taking.

I was using a converted 5 gallon Home Depot cooler. My new setup is a 12.5 gallon Coleman (or maybe Rubbermaid) cooler. I've got a nice spigot and a CPVC manifold hooked in.

The batch I did yesterday was pretty simple, even with me doing a "full" sparge. What I did was mash @ 153F. I did a long (4 hour) mash because I left it mashing while I went to church. I was told this wouldn't have negative effects on the finished beer. We'll see.

Anyway, the temperature dropped to about 130 over that time. I then heated the rest of my total water to about 170F and poured it in. So at this time, I had my total volume of water (8.25 gallons) mixed in with all of my grain and my new temperature was about 155F. Then, I drained the wort into my brew kettle.

It took a little while to drain because I was trying to go fairly slowly to get more sugars out. I'm guessing the whole draining process took about 45 minutes or so.

I hit my target volume of 5.5 gallons and was a point high @ 1.038 (small beer). This gave me an efficiency of 72%. I'm pleased with this new system and it's still straightforward, easy and mostly quick.

In the future, I plan to reinforce the insulation in my new cooler to keep the temperature more steady. I also don't think I'll be doing such long mashes any more. For now, I'll stick to 60-90 minutes.

If I do that and am adding hot water to a mash of 150F+, I should be able to use 3.5-4.5 gallons of hot water to raise the overall temperature to 165-170F. That should speed up my sparge a little bit, right? That also should increase my efficiency a little bit, right?

Anyway, this new method is similar to BIAB, but using a separate mash tun.

I guess I could also just mash with the entire ~8.5 gallons at 152-158F and simply drain that out. If I don't have the bag and pulley system for BIAB, that's about the closest thing, right?

Thanks!
 
A couple things... a long 4 hour mash will definitely change the way the beer ferments. It's going to attenuate about as far as that yeast is capable. It might be fine, perhaps a little dry/thin.

You mixed in the rest of your water, which would normally be called sparge, but without draining the mash wort out first. This is still a "no sparge". Did you stir that water in really well? You could have gone a lot hotter than 170 since it was going into a mash at 130.

If you're not fly sparging, there is no reason to run it off over 45 minutes. It's just a waste of time and you're not getting any more sugar out than if you drained in 5 minutes.

I'm just not understanding the aversion to a regular batch sparge process. Mash at 1.5qts/gallon for 60 minutes. Drain that off. Add sparge water, stir, drain that off. Simple, efficient. Your large temp loss is due to the cooler absorbing heat, not necessarily letting the heat out. Put your strike water into the cooler at least 10F hotter and let it suck some heat out before mixing the grain in.
 
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