Sour Saison recipe - what do you think?

I want to use the easy stovetop all grain method. I made an american wheat with that method that was outstanding. Also, I like to keep it simple.

Belgian 2 row - 7.5 lbs
Belgian biscuit - 1 lb
Belgian wheat - 1 lb

2 oz Styrian Golding at 60 min
1 oz Styrian Golding at 15 min

Irish moss at 15 min

Saison yeast Wyeast 3711 if I can find it
Culture dregs from any Jolly Pumpkin ale

Add both at primary? Should I wait to add the cultured dregs? Should I add more sugar for the bacteria to munch on? I've never made a sour beer before but I really like them.

According to QBrew this gives an OG of 1.053

I was so sure you were going to have acidulated malt in there from the title. I have a saison in primary with some in it right now.

SankePankey said:

I was so sure you were going to have acidulated malt in there from the title. I have a saison in primary with some in it right now.

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Too much of a brew-n00b to even know what that is: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Acidulated_malt

Thanks. Learned something today.

It really depends on how much sour character you want in the beer, and how much saison character you want. If you want more sourness it is generally thought to add them both in the beginning, I believe. If you want a beer more like a saison with a touch of brett/funk character then you need to add it in secondary/post fermentation.

In my experience, adding more sugars post fermentation adds to the sourness as well. However, I added DME/fruit fermentables (lambic) which gave the bugs something to munch on.

SankePankey said:

I was so sure you were going to have acidulated malt in there from the title. I have a saison in primary with some in it right now.

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My own saison is in primary right now. I used .25lb of acid. malt along with a bunch of pilsner, some munich and piloncillo with a local saison blend.


OP...what do you want to accomplish by adding Jolly Pumpkin dregs instead of another saison? also, what are you doing to get the sour in there?

Mine is with 1 lb acidulated in 15lb batch. I did the pitch dupont 3724 and then pitch french 3711 4 days later to make it finish quicker. I can subtly make out the tart twang of the acidulated malt. It's only a week in, so nowhere near done.

I just sort of combined the JZ Raison d' recipe and the Odonata recipe from Sunday Session (which no one ever mentions is a tart BROWN saison... at least the recipe they gave).

From what I've learned, acidulated malt is in lieu of/easier than doing a sour mash (which I've never done).

fineexampl said:

OP...what do you want to accomplish by adding Jolly Pumpkin dregs instead of another saison? also, what are you doing to get the sour in there?

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Um. Brain fart.

I wanted to add the Jolly Pumpkin cuz I like the way it tastes and thought it would be fun in a saison style beer. I think I must have assumed that JP has some souring capability or something.

It's not sour at all.

So I might just make the saison style mash and ferment with JP.

The Jolly Pumpkin bugs will certainly give you some sourness, but it probably won't do much since 3711 is such a strong attenuator. I’d go with the Dupont strain or another saison yeast that will leave a bit more residual sweetness for the bugs to much on. You could go the added sugar/extract route, but in that case wait a couple months so the primary strain doesn’t just eat it. Either way get your bugs in there from the start if you want sourness.

I’ve got a saison going with Dupont and Brett C, and a dark saison with the yeast cake from that as well as Russian River dregs for sourness.

Oldsock said:

The Jolly Pumpkin bugs will certainly give you some sourness, but it probably won't do much since 3711 is such a strong attenuator. I’d go with the Dupont strain or another saison yeast that will leave a bit more residual sweetness for the bugs to much on. You could go the added sugar/extract route, but in that case wait a couple months so the primary strain doesn’t just eat it. Either way get your bugs in there from the start if you want sourness.

I’ve got a saison going with Dupont and Brett C, and a dark saison with the yeast cake from that as well as Russian River dregs for sourness.

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Thanks for the input. Are you suggesting that one approach would be to add both JP and Saison cultures, then add some extract a few months later?

Incidentally I have been subscribed to your blog for a while now. Eye opening, wonderful stuff.

hroth521 said:

Thanks for the input. Are you suggesting that one approach would be to add both JP and Saison cultures, then add some extract a few months later?

Incidentally I have been subscribed to your blog for a while now. Eye opening, wonderful stuff.

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Yep, that's the way I would go (bugs and yeast to start, feed later if needed).

Glad you've enjoyed the blog!

fineexampl said:

OP...what do you want to accomplish by adding Jolly Pumpkin dregs instead of another saison? also, what are you doing to get the sour in there?

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is this a joke or did you purposely answer your own questions

uh, that blog rocks. apparently i know where i'll be spending the next few weeks reading. thanks for posting all that info - i've brewed in the past (only about 20 batches) and took five years off and getting back into it now. true inspiration on the blog, very well done, thank you.

jtakacs said:

uh, that blog rocks. apparently i know where i'll be spending the next few weeks reading. thanks for posting all that info - i've brewed in the past (only about 20 batches) and took five years off and getting back into it now. true inspiration on the blog, very well done, thank you.

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Assuming that was directed at me, thanks.

Last night I added 5 lbs of honey to a barrel of sour saison a friend and I have aging in my basement. I should probably go downstairs to make sure it hasn't exploded...