Beginner yeast curiosity

I am fairly new at this but have done 5 batches now. All 5 have been done with a wyeast smack pack and no starter. My batches have all begun fermentation fairly quickly (as in I brew, go to work and fermentation has begun when I get home 8 to 10 hours later) I would like to know what I am missing here? I understand that a starter is preferred to pitch the proper number of cells but I would like clarification. Are my batches not fermenting completely because of a low yeast cell count? I keep seeing the term "promotes good fermentation" in relation to starters, what is that? I control temperature and let the batches ferment until no activity is going on isn't that "good fermentation"? I am searching for enlightenment

More yeast cells equals less stressed yeast. Stressed yeast can equal off flavors. Also, more healthy yeast cells at the beginning of fermentation can help your wort attenuate better.

From what I understand, it's purely a subjective thing.

Some people always make starters, some people never make starters; both groups of people report that they have stellar results. Obviously, up to this point not making it hasn't been a problem for you. If it hasn't, then I see no reason to change up your technique.

Even though some people dont make starters and some do, the evidence that some people post about making starters influenced me to do them myself. Basically, a smack pack contains somewhere from 25-100 billion cells depending on if you got the propagator or the activator pack. Wort needs about 200 billion for a standard gravity beer (correct me if I'm wrong). Obviously, there's about half as much in one of those packs. Making a starter just allows you to make some (presumably) foul tasting beer that your yeast can grow in number in initially, so you can pitch the enlarged amount of yeast into your wort and they can get going making that delicious, delicious ethanol.

Apparently, when you allow your yeast to grow separately (and if you decant the starter liquid) then you can avoid having some of the off flavors in your beer that they may produce while propagating.

Again, not everyone makes starters and if this works for you, I would suggest continuing to do it.

As you gain more experience, you will determine your own techniques. People are pretty opinionated on this subject. I would suggest trying a batch (preferably one you've made before) with a starter and seeing what you think. The problem is, there are lots of variables every time you brew. It's hard to change only one.

Personally, I've brewed great beers making starters, and I've brewed great beers without making starters.

Here is my current approach:
Low OG Ales: Liquid yeast / no starter
High OG Ales: Liquid Yeast with starter
Dark Ales when I'm being cheap: Dry Yeast
Hefeweizens: Liquid Yeast with or without a starter depending on my mood and prep time (you can get some interesting flavors by underpitching yeast above fermentation temperatures)
Lagers: Liquid Yeast with starter

Yeast will multiply (i.e. asexual reproduction) when confronted by an abundance of sugar. When they multiply, they emit enzymes and chemicals and what not. If there is a huge amount of sugar and space relative to the amount of yeast, they will go a bit crazy. If temp. is controlled and given time, the yeast will go back and clean up most of these other chemicals they released, but not all. But, just because these chemicals are present doesn't mean you can taste them.

Using a starter is just a way of increasing yeast cells so that the yeast doesn't have to multiply so many times. While going from 100 million cells to even 250 million doesn't seem like a big deal; yeast cells grow geometrically. So, just that bit of a head start might mean the yeast only have to divide twice to ferment out the wort instead of three or four times.

On the flip side, it seems some growth is beneficial, which is why many experts advise not to pitch onto the entire dregs from a previous batch.

I think you can pitch a smack pack into 5 gal. of wort and get very good beer. However, at $7/pack, you should learn how to reuse the yeast using starters just to save some money.

Since yeast multiply asexually, in theory ONE yeast cell would be enough to eventually ferment a batch of beer. Of course, that would take a very long time and the wort would be vulnerable to other things that could grow in that time like wild yeast and bacteria, too, so that wouldn't be a good idea. But my point is that fermentation will happen whether you pitch the optimum amount of yeast or not. And I think all of us have "had to" pitch just one package or vial at one time or another- maybe the starter froze, or smelled infected, so we grabbed a fresh vial or there was no time for a starter, etc. I would say that it would make ok beer most of the time, especially if the yeast package is fresh and the wort is 1.050 or under.

The reason most of us make starters, then, is to ensure the correct amount of yeast. Stressed yeast do produce some off-flavors, although not always terribly unpleasant, and we want to avoid that. Also, pitching the correct amount of yeast ensures that the yeast can begin fermentation before any stray microorganisms can get a foodhold. Yeast is 1/4 of the ingredients in beer- water, hops, yeast, grain. Yeast are living organisms, and very important!

You can certainly make great beer without a starter. You can make great beer more consistently with a starter. It takes more variables out of the equation. One package of Wyeast might have 80 billion cells today, depending on the time it was made and how it was treated in transit, before you even bought it. Or, it could have 50. Or 100. You can't tell by looking at the package. Even if there are technically enough in there, a starter can rouse them and get them going before you dump them in your wort. I don't see any disadvantage to making a starter, but I see plenty disadvantages to not making a starter. That's why I make them.

For me, it comes down to the fact that I want to do everything I reasonably can do, to create the best end product I can.

I've been at this for quite a few years, and I can say without any doubt that there are three things that have made a big difference in the quality of my beer, and I won't make a batch without doing these three things:

1. Fermentation temperature control
2. Pitching the optimal amount of yeast
3. Full boils

So would the outcome of the beer be better (in theory) if I pitch 2 packs of dry yeast (US-05) instead of one per 5 gallons of wort?

Also, in line with starters. Could I save a half gallon of my mash running's in a sanitized container like a growler or a few mason jars and refrigerate, save for a week or two, then boil to make a starter?

Thanks for all the info! To this point I have not made anything above 1.050 original gravity with the exception of the scottish I am bottling today which was just a bit higher at 1.052 (this one I am actually a bit worried about as there was a HUGE amount of sludge in the bottom of the primary after two weeks, at least a gallons worth and now it's been in a secondary for a bit too) Anyways, I guess I will try making a starter here soon but the next 2 batches I am doing will be fairly low gravity as well so I probably wont bother.

Yambor44 said:

So would the outcome of the beer be better (in theory) if I pitch 2 packs of dry yeast (US-05) instead of one per 5 gallons of wort?

Click to expand...

From what I understand this would not need to be done because a packet of dry yeast has a plenty big cell count...it just could use to be rehydrated a bit first before pitching.

pkeeler said:

Yeast will multiply (i.e. asexual reproduction) when confronted by an abundance of sugar. When they multiply, they emit enzymes and chemicals and what not. If there is a huge amount of sugar and space relative to the amount of yeast, they will go a bit crazy. If temp. is controlled and given time, the yeast will go back and clean up most of these other chemicals they released, but not all. But, just because these chemicals are present doesn't mean you can taste them.

Using a starter is just a way of increasing yeast cells so that the yeast doesn't have to multiply so many times. While going from 100 million cells to even 250 million doesn't seem like a big deal; yeast cells grow geometrically. So, just that bit of a head start might mean the yeast only have to divide twice to ferment out the wort instead of three or four times.

On the flip side, it seems some growth is beneficial, which is why many experts advise not to pitch onto the entire dregs from a previous batch.

I think you can pitch a smack pack into 5 gal. of wort and get very good beer. However, at $7/pack, you should learn how to reuse the yeast using starters just to save some money.

Click to expand...

Aren't they still multiplying the same number of times? That's what I dont get. I get how it can speed up fermentation, and how that could potentially affect flavors, I suppose. But I dont see how the yeast multiply less by having a starter, since your starter was made by multiplying te yeast.

Yambor44 said:

So would the outcome of the beer be better (in theory) if I pitch 2 packs of dry yeast (US-05) instead of one per 5 gallons of wort?

Click to expand...

This depends on the gravity of the wort, but overpitching (using too much yeast) can be just as bad as underpitching.

Note that dry yeast has a lot more viable cells than liquid.

A typical 11.5g packet of dry yeast is optimal for an OG of 1.062; 2 packs is optimal at 1.124. So the underpitch/overpitch sweet spot is around 1.090; less than that, using 1 pack is closer to right. More than that, using 2 is closer.

Just go here:
http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

Click the "liquid" tab or the "dry" tab. Enter your OG and the volume of your batch. Read the answer for how much yeast/how big a starter you need to be optimal.

Yambor44 said:

So would the outcome of the beer be better (in theory) if I pitch 2 packs of dry yeast (US-05) instead of one per 5 gallons of wort.

Click to expand...

You don't need to make a starter with dry yeast, but you should rehydrate them prior to pitching. Edit: Correction - see SumnerH above... unless you're making really big beers, 1 packet of dry should suffice.

There's another viable alternate to making a starter - pitching more yeast. I'll admit to often being lazy and double pitching vials of White Labs as opposed to making a starter. Yes, it ads $7 to my material costs, but I've decided the hour of my life that I'd spend messing with the starter is worth more than $7 to me.

doctorRobert said:

Aren't they still multiplying the same number of times? That's what I dont get. I get how it can speed up fermentation, and how that could potentially affect flavors, I suppose. But I dont see how the yeast multiply less by having a starter, since your starter was made by multiplying te yeast.

Click to expand...

For the yeast to multiply, they need to take in oxygen to make new cell walls. When making a starter, you shake/stir to help oxygenate a small amount of liquid boosting cell count. Then you pitch that into your full batch and oxygenate again. The yeast will multiply less if you pitch the vial into 5 gallons because oxygen is a limiting factor. If you put a ton of oxygen into your full batch you will end up with a hot alcohol off flavor.

Starters get you to a point where the yeast grows a little, then ferments a lot. They will also be healthy enough at the end of fermentation to clean up the fusel alcohols and other off flavors.

At least that is my understanding of the aerobic/anaerobic workings of the yeast.

SumnerH said:

This depends on the gravity of the wort, but overpitching (using too much yeast) can be just as bad as underpitching.

Note that dry yeast has a lot more viable cells than liquid.

A typical 11.5g packet of dry yeast is optimal for an OG of 1.062; 2 packs is optimal at 1.124. So the underpitch/overpitch sweet spot is around 1.090; less than that, using 1 pack is closer to right. More than that, using 2 is closer.

Just go here:
http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

Click the "liquid" tab or the "dry" tab. Enter your OG and the volume of your batch. Read the answer for how much yeast/how big a starter you need to be optimal.

Click to expand...

Wow! According to that site I need to start adding more than one packet at about 1.045 OG.
http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

devilishprune said:

From what I understand, it's purely a subjective thing.

Some people always make starters, some people never make starters; both groups of people report that they have stellar results. Obviously, up to this point not making it hasn't been a problem for you. If it hasn't, then I see no reason to change up your technique.

Even though some people dont make starters and some do, the evidence that some people post about making starters influenced me to do them myself. Basically, a smack pack contains somewhere from 25-100 billion cells depending on if you got the propagator or the activator pack. Wort needs about 200 billion for a standard gravity beer (correct me if I'm wrong). Obviously, there's about half as much in one of those packs. Making a starter just allows you to make some (presumably) foul tasting beer that your yeast can grow in number in initially, so you can pitch the enlarged amount of yeast into your wort and they can get going making that delicious, delicious ethanol.

Apparently, when you allow your yeast to grow separately (and if you decant the starter liquid) then you can avoid having some of the off flavors in your beer that they may produce while propagating.

Again, not everyone makes starters and if this works for you, I would suggest continuing to do it.

Click to expand...

I happen to have one of each. Can you tell me what the difference is?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/propagator-vs-activator-question-144499/

propagator to grow more yeast. activator is pitchable as is.

propagator pack will be your first "starter" growing the culture up to a pitchable amount.

hope this helps.

Very much, thanks. So to clarify, my activator (Pacman) I can just smack, wait on it to swell, then pitch and the propagator needs a standard 2l starter. Correct?

that's the idea!

Yambor44 said:

Very much, thanks. So to clarify, my activator (Pacman) I can just smack, wait on it to swell, then pitch and the propagator needs a standard 2l starter. Correct?

Click to expand...

Er, no. Again, it depends on several factors. Look at mrmalty.com's yeast pitching calculator. Put in the age of the yeast, the OG of the batch, and if it's an ale or lager. It should tell you how many yeast cells are optimal. For some batches 100 billion is barely adequate (one smackpack (activator) pack).

A propagator is NEVER adequate, but sometimes an activator is. But not usually.

I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but I've brewed many, many batches, and I know what worked better and what worked just marginally.

I promise you, if you follow the guidelines at http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html you will brew better beer than if you just pour your package of liquid yeast into your wort.

So if your ultimate goal is to brew beer (and that's a perfectly admirable goal), just pour your package of liquid yeast into your batch and you will accomplish your goal.

If your ultimate goal is to control all the factors you reasonably can, to brew the best beer you can, follow that link and take the advice given therein.