PLEASE HELP! 36+ Hours after Pitching, No Activity...

So, on Friday afternoon, I brewed a Belgian Dubbel. Took a temp reading of the wort as soon as I was done transferring from the kettle to primary, and it was 69, maybe 70 degrees. So I immediately pitched my liquid Wyeast Belgian Abbey Activator SmackPack.

That was at about 9pm on Friday night. Here we are, Sunday, 1pm, and there's absolutely zero activity. No, I didn't do a starter because the decision to brew was a last-minute thing, so I didn't have time. I just smacked the pack a few hours prior, and pitched directly into the wort.

How long should I wait before giving up on this strain and repitching? I have some various Safeale dried stuff, and also a Wyeast London ESB SmackPack in the fridge...would the ESB yeast be okay to use on a Dubbel if I need to?

I'd give it another day. This is a fairly high OG, right? That makes for slower starts, as the yeast have to deal with a high osmotic pressure.

None of those other yeasts will give you the basic Belgian flavors.

I would give it another day if you can stand the wait.

david_42 said:

I'd give it another day. This is a fairly high OG, right? That makes for slower starts, as the yeast have to deal with a high osmotic pressure.

None of those other yeasts will give you the basic Belgian flavors.

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I suspected as much. This is my first true belgian (except for a Wit), but I'm beer-geek-ified enough to respect the importance of belgian strains. Fantome. I rest my case.

So, I'll give her another day. But, if, FSM forbid, nothing happens, what am I gonna do? I don't have an LHBS to raid for more belgian strains...so what do I do? Order more from AHS, and wait another 5 days? That seems dangerous to me.

Since you already put all the work in to it and your looking at five days for delivery I would pitch one of the others you have on hand after making a big starter. $.02

Yeah, I suppose that'll work. My plan was to make a cranberry dubbel. I ordered some cranberry flavoring to add at bottling. I guess I could just pitch the Safeale US-56 and call it a cranberry brown ale, and try a true belgian dubbel some other time. it just really pisses me off when these $7 liquid yeasts don't work.

But I'm still holding out hope!

Actually, there's a really cool microbrewpub here in town and the brewer is really great about sharing his strains. Maybe he has something I can use if I need it.

david_42 said:

I'd give it another day. This is a fairly high OG, right? That makes for slower starts, as the yeast have to deal with a high osmotic pressure.

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Nice $3 word, havent heard or used that since Paramedic training. A high osmotic pressure IIRC is hard on yeast because it's trying to suck the water out of your yeast cells and into you wort in an attempt to balance out the concentration of water between the yeast cells and the concentration of water in the wort. It will take your yeast a bit to be able to adapt and get good an healthy and thats why ya get slower starts.

IMHO . . . . RDWHAHB I bet it turns out fine.

I just had another crazy idea...I work in a fine wine/beer shop. I'm actually here right now. Our beer selection is sick...AAB rated us one of the top 70 retailers in the country. So what if I take a relatively new bottle-conditioned belgian dubbel and try to culture the yeasts from the bottle? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Pumbaa said:

Nice $3 word, havent heard or used that since Paramedic training. A high osmotic pressure IIRC is hard on yeast because it's trying to suck the water out of your yeast cells and into you wort in an attempt to balance out the concentration of water between the yeast cells and the concentration of water in the wort. It will take your yeast a bit to be able to adapt and get good an healthy and thats why ya get slower starts.

IMHO . . . . RDWHAHB I bet it turns out fine.

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Thanks for the optimism, Pumbaa...I need it! I'm really gunning for these Abbey yeasts to get it done. I'm just not sure how long I should really wait before I should start worrying about peripheral contamination. Yes, I sanitize like a madman, and everything has been entirely clean, and it's been sealed, of course, but I've never let any of my brews go beyond 48 hours without repitching.

Also, do you think agitating the wort by swirling the carboy would help matters?

Did the smack pack expand like it's supposed to?

Also, do you think agitating the wort by swirling the carboy would help matters?

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Probably wouldnt hurt, may want to try and warm it up just a touch too depending the temp it's at now

Dunno if I would try to make a starter from a bottle of store beer. From what I understand it's not uncommon for the brewery to use a different strain to carbonate their beer.

Orpheus said:

Did the smack pack expand like it's supposed to?

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Don't ask...ugh. I smacked it, and the pressure from the smack punctured the container pack. I only lost a couple drops, but even though it was punctured, it still seemed to expand a little bit in the 2 hours leading up to pitching. Though, I didn't expect too much swelling, given that it was no longer airtight.

Pumbaa said:

Probably wouldnt hurt, may want to try and warm it up just a touch too depending the temp it's at now

Dunno if I would try to make a starter from a bottle of store beer. From what I understand it's not uncommon for the brewery to use a different strain to carbonate their beer.

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It's at mid 60's. Any ideas on how I might warm it up? We haven't turned the heat on yet.

When my friend and I made our Mango-peach Wit, he cultured the yeast from the bottom of a bottle of Legend (Richmond, VA) White Ale. And it worked like a charm. But I don't currently have any Legend (it's unpasteurized, so we have to keep it refrigerated!) that uses belgian yeasts right now, so I dunno. It's probably different with the ones from Belgium.

I think trying to culture and grow enough yeast to pitch might take longer than you want to wait.

G. Cretin said:

I think trying to culture and grow enough yeast to pitch might take longer than you want to wait.

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Probably right...

It's at mid 60's. Any ideas on how I might warm it up? We haven't turned the heat on yet.

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Got an electric blankey or heating pad? Might even be able to use one of those air activated warming pads they sell for backs.

Pumbaa said:

Got an electric blankey or heating pad? Might even be able to use one of those air activated warming pads they sell for backs.

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Brilliant! I have a plug-in heating pad for dem achin' muscles. Thanks!

Got an electric blankey or heating pad?

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I've been hanging out with my 4 year old too much

I didn't even catch that. Priceless. Aww, does the wittle Dubbel want his blankey?!

Ah the ever elusive starter. I'm culturing a starter now for a brew I intend to do next Sunday.
Bet I have no lag problems.

You can't blame the yeast when you were impatient to brew
and couldn't pitch an ample amount of healthy cells.

And afaik the yeast in the bottom of comercial bottled beer isn't the strain they brewed with. Kinda hard to keep a strain of yeast exclusive when it is there for everyone to culture.

If sanitation was really imaculate then relax don't w...(I won't go there). But just to sound cool I'll tell you a little story.. About two years ago a little extract brewer named b,rock bock made a Imperial stout with an OG of 1.120. Didn't realize how high that actually is! And I waited.... And I waited.... one day two day three day four day five day..... Talk about worrying! Just when I had the money to buy a smack-pack and erlenmeyer and think about repitching, on the m-f ing SEVENTH day there was INTENSE activity. The bottom line? I let it do it's thing, bottled it (no secondary) and it was the best I.S. I ever made still trying to clone it to this day!
hope this isn't just a bunch of hot air! .02 etc.

By the way Boo Boo... You can still find exclusive strains in some commercial and micro ales. My LHBS guru actually isolated PACMAN from a bottle of shakespere stout last year and that yeast has been much appreciated by the brew club in the area.... I've only had luck with Ommegang (I think) Allagash and Skullers (a local micro) but the possibility is out there

boo boo:

"Couldn't pitch an ample amount"? The hell, you say! With the large wyeast activator packs, you don't have to make a starter. Hell, according to the direction on the actual packaging, you can smack the pack and pitch immediately if so desired, so, please, don't preach to me. I've used the big 125ml activator packs before, and making a starter is not necessary by any means. And I'm not "blaming the yeasts" either.

Also, as to the "exclusivity" of Pacman, I've got a wyeast Pacman smack pack in the mail right now that I ordered from AHS, so, I doubt it's all that exclusive anymore.

UPDATE:

Well, here we are, nearly 3 whole days later, and still...nada. I don't have the cojones to risk any more time. So, I called the brewmaster at my favorite local brewpub, and he generously provided me with a bunch of yeast. While he didn't have any belgians at the current time, what he suggested was to use a mix of his british ale, bavarian lager, and hefe yeasts. So now, I have a mason jar full to the brim with a mix of those three, which I'll pitch tonight. I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for all your help and optimism!

Evan! said:

I just had another crazy idea...I work in a fine wine/beer shop. I'm actually here right now. Our beer selection is sick...AAB rated us one of the top 70 retailers in the country. So what if I take a relatively new bottle-conditioned belgian dubbel and try to culture the yeasts from the bottle? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

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I did this with a porter. My yeast showed no activity for several days, so I poured a bottle of SN porter into the wort. Worked like gangbusters. I had activity the next morning and two boilovers. If you're out of options, that will work.

If you have some safbrew 33 that is close to a dubbel yeast. Or even some 58.

Evan! said:

boo boo:

"Couldn't pitch an ample amount"? The hell, you say! With the large wyeast activator packs, you don't have to make a starter. Hell, according to the direction on the actual packaging, you can smack the pack and pitch immediately if so desired, so, please, don't preach to me. I've used the big 125ml activator packs before, and making a starter is not necessary by any means. And I'm not "blaming the yeasts" either.

Also, as to the "exclusivity" of Pacman, I've got a wyeast Pacman smack pack in the mail right now that I ordered from AHS, so, I doubt it's all that exclusive anymore.

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Hey man, I won't preach to you but if you think there is an ample amount of yeast in a smack pack then Brew on. and as for culturing yeast from a bottle of brew, go for it.

Culturing yeast from a bottle is certainly a viable option, but it's not necessarily going to net wonderful results. Most commercial brewers make their bottle conditioned beers by fermenting with their proprietary strain which lends the flavor profile to the beer. Then they either pasteurize, filter, or otherwise eliminate the primary yeast strain and add a more generic "clean profile" yeast for bottle conditioning. Unfortunately, that prevents us from capturing some of the unique qualities of these beers.

Yuri_Rage said:

Culturing yeast from a bottle is certainly a viable option, but it's not necessarily going to net wonderful results. Most commercial brewers make their bottle conditioned beers by fermenting with their proprietary strain which lends the flavor profile to the beer. Then they either pasteurize, filter, or otherwise eliminate the primary yeast strain and add a more generic "clean profile" yeast for bottle conditioning. Unfortunately, that prevents us from capturing some of the unique qualities of these beers.

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I know...I just know that I've done it before, on albiet unpastuerized Wit, and it turned out great. So I was just wondering if there were any crazy belgians who might have something useable.

Either way, it's a moot point now, cuz I plan on pitching this wacko blend of ale, hefe and lager yeasts I got from a local brewpubmaster.

Dennys Fine Consumptibles said:

If you have some safbrew 33 that is close to a dubbel yeast. Or even some 58.

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H'aint got nothing dry 'cept US-56, which won't do.

boo boo said:

Hey man, I won't preach to you but if you think there is an ample amount of yeast in a smack pack then Brew on. and as for culturing yeast from a bottle of brew, go for it.

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Like I said, this is the first time a SmackPack hasn't worked for me, and all the literature I've read about the 125ml activator packs, including the directions on the package, say that a starter isn't necessary. I suppose it all depends on your OG...plus, these belgian strains are finickey from what I've heard. Oh well. Live and learn. Next time, I'm making a starter fo sho. I got a couple of vials of yeast from my local brewpub today, in addition to the stuff he gave me to pitch into this batch, and he said the hefe strain likes to shut down quickly, so I'll definitely brew a starter for that one.

In my opinion not making a starter is like russian roulette. It only takes once to screw up a brew, well not screw it up because you always can repitch. When i switched to liquid yeast from dry I read always make a starter and to this day that is the way I have done it. I don't know of any other way. Also I now freeze my yeast so to bump up my cell count i definately need one.

I know a lot of people don't make one and make great beer. To me it just seems a short lag time makes for peace of mind.

Good luck.

It really depends on how old the smack pack was and how hot it got during shipping.

Dennys Fine Consumptibles said:

It really depends on how old the smack pack was and how hot it got during shipping.

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The pack was a couple weeks old. The icepack was still cold when it arrived in the mail, and it sat in the fridge since then.

Call whyeast, they'll probably ship you free pack.

You get anything happening yet?

Yeah, I posted an update in another thread this morning. Just before I was about to pitch some yeast that the brewmaster from a local brewpub had given me, I pulled back the blanket and BAM, they had started to work. Now I'm just hoping that nothing nasty decided to contaminate or infect my beer during that 3-day lag time.

Evan! said:

Just before I was about to pitch some yeast that the brewmaster from a local brewpub had given me, I pulled back the blanket and BAM, they had started to work.

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Isn't that the way it always happens? First Mr. Murphy prevents your fermentation from happening quickly, which forces you to buy (or beg for) more yeast. You get a nice starter going, and then that Murphy clown lets your fermentation go active. Stupid Murphy.

No joke. Luckily, the brewmaster who gave me the yeast is awesome, and the last thing I had to do was beg. He was like "come on by anytime, I'll hook you up!" Very nice contact...

I remember reading somewhere (I think it was the "How to Brew Like A Monk" website) that Chimay uses the same yeast for bottling as they do for brewing. One monk even said that all anyone who wanted their yeast had to do was culture it out of the bottle as it would be viable for about 6 months. Call me nieve, but a monk wouldn't lie...right? Also I checked the Jul/Aug '06 issue of BYO which had an article on Belgian ales. Said something about Belgian yeast strains taking longer than most to do their work, so what you experienced may be normal. (Don't know for certain as I haven't tried brewing one of these before.)

I always make a starter with the Wyeast cultures and usually my brew is bubbling before I go to sleep that same evening. Next day? Fuggedaboutit. First thing the next morning there's a huge head and tons of bubbling.