Question for No chillers and not pitching yeast right away

So I brought this up in another thread, but I wanted to ask the community here for thoughts on this.

One time my starter failed to take off. The wort had been sitting in the fermenter for 2 days with no yeast when I decided to make a new starter. For extra measure to ensure sterile wort, I crushed up 5 camden tablets and added them to the wort. I let it sit for another 30-ish hours to make sure the camden did its job and had stopped being effective, then pitched the new starter.

It helped me through a less than ideal situation...ended up working great and the end result was awesome beer. So I am wondering if this has and place in no chill brewing, or just those who can't pitch yeast immediately for whatever reason.

It got me to thinking...would it be a good insurance for no chillers to add 1 camden tab per gallon to the beer in the cubes or would this be a waste. Part of me feels like if something was going to get in the wort before pitching time, camden wouldn't do much since it is already sterile going into the cube, but if there is any merit to this it could be helpful to a lot of brewers!

What are your thoughts?

some people don't use a chiller and just let it sit (covered) overnight.

Never used camden. Wort goes in sterile (immediately after flame-out) and the remaining air in the container likely gets sterilized by the steaming liquid. Cube is sealed and a vacuum occurs as the wort chills. Only had one batch (out of over a dozen brews) get infected while in the cube and that's because I broke the vacuum by draining a quart of cooled wort out several days after filling the cube so I could make a real wort starter (cube sucked in a big gulp of "basement air").

certaut said:

some people don't use a chiller and just let it sit (covered) overnight.

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I would be one of those people!

thughes said:

Never used camden. Wort goes in sterile (immediately after flame-out) and the remaining air in the container likely gets sterilized by the steaming liquid. Cube is sealed and a vacuum occurs as the wort chills. Only had one batch (out of over a dozen brews) get infected while in the cube and that's because I broke the vacuum by draining a quart of cooled wort out several days after filling the cube so I could make a real wort starter (cube sucked in a big gulp of "basement air").

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This is exactly why I made this thread. Since camden is used to sterilize wines and such since there is no boiling process involved, I am trying to figure out if there is any downside for using it in beer in the same manner.

What I am getting at is, What if you tossed 5 camden tabs in the cube before you squeezed the headspace out and sealed it back up...would that have taken care of anything that got in and prevented you from losing that batch?

Like wise, what if you boiled up a bunch of wort for yeast starters, transfered to a storage medium like a cube, canning jars, etc. Then hit with camden every time you draw some off to make a starter. I would much rather do that then boil wort every time for a starter!

Does anyone follow my logic or have I just gone off the deep end?

Honestly? Seeing as though campden is used in wine making to halt fermentation, I have always been concerned with its affect on my yeast once I do finally pitch.

BTW, the batch that I lost went from fine to an ugly smelly monster puking nasty liquid all over my basement in a matter of a few hours, not sure if anything would have prevented the nasties that took hold and created that disaster. I also don't mind boiling my starters for a few minutes just to be safe (although I now reserve a portion for RWS before draining the kettle into the cube).

thughes said:

Honestly? Seeing as though campden is used in wine making to halt fermentation, I have always been concerned with its affect on my yeast once I do finally pitch.

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Keep in mind that campden is not used to halt fermentation. It's used to knock out some wild yeast initially, which is way weaker than wine/beer yeast.

Campden in conjunction with potassium sorbate is used to inhibit further fermentation once fermentation is complete.

AZ_IPA said:

Keep in mind that campden is not used to halt fermentation. It's used to knock out some wild yeast initially, which is way weaker than wine/beer yeast.

Campden in conjunction with potassium sorbate is used to inhibit further fermentation once fermentation is complete.

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Good to know (pardon my ignorance). Perhaps I shall add campden to my regimen...or at least see what the Aussies have to say on the subject.

Yes, camden is used to help kill anything that is in wine before you pitch the yeast you actually want in the wine. It does not permanently stay in solution which is why I wonder if it could have helped thughes out in his situation.

Plus I always have tons of camden on hand because if I can't find it to knock the chloromites out of my water, I just jog 300 yards to the LHBS and pick up a new bottle for 2 bucks haha

Very interesting thread. I am currently a no-chiller as well and I just let my beer sit overnight in its pot, covered (clamped down to prevent the lid from getting knocked off accidentally). Though I have not had any infections with my few no chills, I am always a bit concerned. This could be an additional level of anti-infection security.

How long would we need to wait before pitching yeast safely if we used camden?

I've been considering this with my lagers. I would still use my chiller to get it down around 90ºF, but at that point I would put it in my freezer and pitch the next day. Seems that everyone who does this reports that it works great, and getting my wort under 60ºF is really tough with my current setup.

Phew I am glad at least a few people follow this enough so I don't feel AS insane

Bradinator said:

Very interesting thread. I am currently a no-chiller as well and I just let my beer sit overnight in its pot, covered (clamped down to prevent the lid from getting knocked off accidentally). Though I have not had any infections with my few no chills, I am always a bit concerned. This could be an additional level of anti-infection security.

How long would we need to wait before pitching yeast safely if we used camden?

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I brew the exact same way as you. I turn off the burner, let it cool (at least) over night, move it to a fermenter and pitch! When I first looked at camden for this purpose, i remember seeing somewhere to let it sit 24 hours before you are safe to pitch!

Airborneguy said:

I've been considering this with my lagers. I would still use my chiller to get it down around 90ºF, but at that point I would put it in my freezer and pitch the next day. Seems that everyone who does this reports that it works great, and getting my wort under 60ºF is really tough with my current setup.

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That is another good application. My main concern is camden only knocks out whats in the beer, so after that initial 24 hours I think it is back to the wort being fair game...which makes me question the applicability to no chillers (since wort is already sterile going into cubes). BUT in those 24 hours it is effective, it buys you that much time!

I don't really see the point. Apart from the fact that I am intolerant to sulphites, if you use the no-chill method correctly and clean and sanitise all post boil equipment sufficiently, there is simply no need to worry about infections in a no chill cube any more than you need to worry with chilling.

For me the biggest differences to worry about are bitterness, flavour and aroma from hops. All of these have solutions that are reasonably tried and true and the vast number of people who no chill, do so with no more infection problems than people who chill: testament to the fact that the method works as it stands.

Clean HDPE container, sanitise HDPE container, fill with near boiling liquid, remove oxygen, seal.

Possibly more sanitary than some chilling methods depending on the user. If you need to add sulphites for peace of mind and they don't give you or your loved ones bad headaches then by all means.

I knew someone from Oz would weigh-in sooner or later, thanks for the input. I hadn't though about sulfates but I am glad you bring that up, I don't tolerate them well and would hate to brew a batch of beer that gave me the same pounding headache I get from red wine.

After reading HBT, I put together the following process.

First, put some water in quart size plastic containers (yogurt containers, tupperware, butter containers, etc.) and freeze them the night before. When I'm done with my boil, I add the frozen water from about 6 of these quart size containers. This bring my temps down around 100 degrees. Then, I rack to my Better Bottle fermenter and wait until the morning to pitch my yeast. Obviously, you have to need some top off water for your beer for this work, but you could sanitize the containers and just float them in the wort for a full boil beer also.

Sort of a half-assed no chill method.

After my wife didn't like the wort cooling on the stove overnight, I had to get crafty. This is the best solution I've found yet.

I stopped using campden and started filtering my water to get rid of chloramines instead. I did this to avoid any possible chemicals in the final product. This is probably unwarranted given that sulfites produced will either precipitate out with cholarmine or other wort products and/or evaporate during the boil so I'm probably overreacting.

But there are definitely sulfites in wine because wine (and the campden) is not boiled. And this would be the case with adding it to post-boil wort as well.

For most people it doesn't make a difference but many people are sensitive to sulfites (including asthmatics).

Just a thought.

Oops. I see this has already been mentioned by manticle. Sorry.

Awsome, Thanks for all the feedback guys! MY roomate developed an allergy to sulphites recently. He used to live on Jaeger and Fransia haha. Now whenever he drinks anything with a lot of sulphites, his skin gets red blotches all over his body.

Sometimes He will wash a benadryl down with a shot of jaeger, but I don't recommend this

I thought with Campden that you have to leave a way for the stuff to vent off? The instructions I've seen usually say to add Campden to a bucket of must and to cover it with a towel but not a lid. Whatever gas is produced by that reaction, it won't be able to leave the cube.

I would say that there's no need to add Campden. The original Aussie method did not call for it, and there are hundreds of No Chill brewers who have no need for it. If there is any bacteria in your wort, then there is something wrong with your No Chill practice to start with.

Also, get a cube that seals up completely air tight. I wouldn't trust a keg or a bucket for the job.

ghpeel said:

I thought with Campden that you have to leave a way for the stuff to vent off? The instructions I've seen usually say to add Campden to a bucket of must and to cover it with a towel but not a lid. Whatever gas is produced by that reaction, it won't be able to leave the cube.

I would say that there's no need to add Campden. The original Aussie method did not call for it, and there are hundreds of No Chill brewers who have no need for it. If there is any bacteria in your wort, then there is something wrong with your No Chill practice to start with.

Also, get a cube that seals up completely air tight. I wouldn't trust a keg or a bucket for the job.

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Good points. I no chill brew, but I don't use the cubes. I turn my burner off, seal up my boil-pot then transfer/pitch the next day. Works great and this is why I first used camden (boil kettle isn't airtight)