Universal Healthcare vs. Universal Foodcare

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TxBrew

TxBrew

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So I watched some of Sicko and watched the Democrat debate last week. Both preached "Universal" Health Care. I disagree with this pretty much. I think we have a good system in place. We just need to regulate the insurance companies differently like we do many other sectors.

However I got to thinking about the concept ...

We already have free/low health care access to those who are poor called Medicaid. Medicaid is also available to people who might not be poor but have huge medical bills though it might be hard to get accepted.

We also have the same program for food. People who cannot afford food can get free food via food stamps. Very simple to get, I know.

Food is very important, I would argue having food is more important than having health care access.

So before we come up with a program that will give health care access to all through taxes why not a program that will give food to all through taxes? Or what am I missing here?

If everyone has the right to health care from taxes, why not food, why not shelter, why not clothing? All are basic essentials to live.
 
Sign me up for lobster for life!!! Aim high!

But seriously, aiming high is what I think this is all about. I can't speak for dem leadership, but I don't think that they believe they will ever get universal healthcare passed, even if they had both houses and the White House. They are asking for the whole enchilada hoping they will get some concessions over time (which I think is a bad strategy). If they really want to push healthcare as an agenda, they should just shoot for partial free healthcare (ie. free physicals and preventive medicine, pay for everything else). Tax payers pay for all sorts of healthcare for people that let themselves get sick to the point of needing huge amounts of medical resources when some preventive medicine early on could avoid much of it.

Free food is an interesting idea - so much of the poor health in this country is due to overeating or poor nutritional habits. Gov't: "Here you go - you get your free food, but you eat only this healthy stuff we give you".

Free stuff - I'm not sure that's what this country needs - another reason to be even more lazy than we are collectively getting already.
 
How about reducing tax cuts for the oil companies and have them pay for it?

I think we have enough programs in place to support the lazy as is. I have no problem helping out people with a real need. But, IMHO, if you make it easier for people to go on the dole, then they will. Hell, I wouldn't work 50 hours a week if I knew somebody was going to pay for my food, clothing and housing. I'd just go fishing everyday, which is what I'm working towards. I wish somebody would come up with a tax program where I could qualify for free gasoline. I have a 56 mile commute everyday, a major part of my budget is just to get to work......
 
Just think what we could do with 460 BILLION dollars. That's how much we've spent in iraq so far. Don't get me wrong, I totally support our troops as I have about 10 close friends there, but our misguided president, preaching a majority of lies, has us in deep. We could easily have taken on the proposed universal food and healthcare if we hadn't taken on iraq's, "Dubya M. D's.... that we didn't find.."

Those are my ramblings. I am not out to offend anyone. If I did, I am DEEPLY sorry.

Greg
 
How about improving public education so that people can actually obtain jobs that will provide money for them to feed themselves and decent health insurance through their employer?

Personally I think better education is the answer to a lot of our problems and given that in some places we have some of the highest education spending per child I don't think throwing money at the problem is the solution. Also, No Child Left Behind is a joke and the name of the program is offensive once you understand what it was designed to do - namely, kick the under performing kids out of school.
 
fretman124 said:
How about reducing tax cuts for the oil companies and have them pay for it?
Why should a singular minority pay for programs that benefit the majority?

While I agree that the big oil companies have more than enough profits to solve a lot of problems in this country, they should not be expected to.

What if someone proposed that all breweries in fork over a percentage of their profits to help take care of progams such as healthcare, etc.? That would seem ridiculous to most of us, but it's no different than expecting the big oil companies to do it (or forcing them to do it).

Businesses are in business to make money, not support government programs. They should not be singled out just because they have insane profit margins...they pay taxes on what they make just like everyone else.
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ohiobrewtus said:
fretman124 said:
Why should a singular minority pay for programs that benefit the majority?
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Well said! For example, the recent proposed SCHIP Bill. Take a look at where that money was to come from... tobacco. Aside from the fact that the 20,000% (yes, 20,000) tax increase on cigars would have put an end to the US cigar industry/market (seriously), with tobacco use on such a decline, it doesn't seem like a very reliable source of revenue. Plus there's just something wrong with collecting money from something that is a risk to health to fund healthcare. Americans would have to smoke more so the government could collect more taxes. Luckily it was vetoed, but I doubt it's over.
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Uh Oh. This thread is like a powder keg! I watched the dem debate and was just really disappointed by the mudslinging. I think Hillary (no matter what your opinion of her may be) did well when she basically said, "Let the people make the decision for themselves" and removed herself from the petty arguing.

On another note, I was watching a show on MSNBC about homeless youth in SanFran, and realized that only in America do you see fat homeless people. I think that says a lot about our economy, work ethic, and healthcare system.
 
Americans sense of entitlement is astonishing. As a white male, I get whatever I can pay for: no more, no less. [After taxes, of course.]
 
Why would you need universal health care?

Funnily I watched a show this weekend that listed the top 5 countries for life longevity. Although Canada wasn't in the top 5 (it is 6th) we are pretty high up there. The USA was 42nd...

The good way to think about it is: The longer people live healthy, the longer they will be able to work, the longer they will be able to pay taxes. So by spending a certain amount on universal health care, you gain more money by having a healthier working population.
 
david_42 said:
Americans sense of entitlement is astonishing. As a white male, I get whatever I can pay for: no more, no less. [After taxes, of course.]
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I can't disagree with that...I'm always amazed to learn what people think is "coming to them." From their government, from their employer, or whatever.

OTOH, I also think that one of the distinguishing characteristics of a civilized society is that the sick are taken care of, and that everybody is fed. Attempts are made at both in this country, with varied degrees of success. Sadly, it's done in an incompetent and often corrupt manner.
 
How bout keeping what you earn and you buy whatever care you want.

Universal BeerCare sounds good, but can you imagine waiting in line for days for a 7 oz two year old bottle of Milwaukee's Best? You could brew your own, but the BeerCare police would confiscate it.
 
Greggy said:
Just think what we could do with 460 BILLION dollars. That's how much we've spent in iraq so far. Don't get me wrong, I totally support our troops as I have about 10 close friends there, but our misguided president, preaching a majority of lies, has us in deep. We could easily have taken on the proposed universal food and healthcare if we hadn't taken on iraq's, "Dubya M. D's.... that we didn't find.."

Those are my ramblings. I am not out to offend anyone. If I did, I am DEEPLY sorry.

Greg
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OK, I'll bite. How in fact do you "totally support our troops"? I'm curious because I am a little offended by your comments. I am yet to see the "blood for oil", because l certainly ain't getting my gas any cheaper. Our "misguided president, preaching a majority of lies" was put into office by around 50% of this country (regardless of how you want to call the vote, it's still too close to call), and the opposing side's best and brightest minds voted for this action and backed this president. Is it all a folly? Only time will really tell, but GWB didn't take power with an army.

So how do you support our troops? If you really disagree with the actions of our government, then are you aiding your friends to go AWOL? Are you helping them get conscientious objector status? I always wonder about this "I support our troop, not out president" line. The troops signed up for this. If you're going to tell me about them signing up for a scholarship you're not going to win any sympathy from me. It's in the not so fine print, it's the military. It's an all voluntary system, and if someone signs up but doesn't agree with the actions then it would seem they're only there to take advantage of the system. That's wrong. Your friends disagree with you, or at least don't disagree with the commander in chief enough to quit. There's plenty of ways for your friends to get out.

Yes, I served. 1989-94, USN. I have a Southwest Asia Campaign ribbon, among others, for going over to the region under the first Bush. I'm a VFW, do you support me, even though you disagree with me.

I'm sure I've put my foot in it here. I'm know I'm going to be tagged as someone who's a troublemaker, or worse, some right wing whacko, but really, I'm just getting tired of all of it.

Sorry Greggy, your post was just the straw today. I don't know you, and you're probably a great person, it's just that it gets old hearing all this crap on a beer site. I'll pay closer attention to what threads I venture into I guess.
 
My thoughts are you deserve what you earn. You earn a gazillion dollars, you deserve it. You don't earn squat, you deserve nothing.

There are those that are in genuine need though and I believe in helping them. However, I would like to see more charities focus on our own country rather than spend so much money overseas. Help out the poor, hungry homeless people in your city first, once you got all them covered, then send your money to the next closest city. Increase the quality of American lives.

This world is still very much 'survival of the fittest' despite the romantic concept of civility.
 
I think we should have universal health care with a $10,000 annual deductible with a three-time cap (once you've paid the deductible three times, you are covered under a medicare-type system with dramatically lower deductibles).

Ethically, this is good because it safeguards everyone from debilitating illnesses resulting in debts that are impossible to pay. It will increase peoples' access to the most advanced and expensive types of medical necessities. Let's face it, the ultra rich make up just a fraction of a percent of our country and most of them inherited the wealth. The rest of us, even if you're making 6 figures as a doctor or lawyer or whatever, can lose everything if we get the right illness and are no longer able to work. It's the "no-longer able to work" plus "long-term care needed" scenario where the government should step in and start to care for people. It's a part of being a civilized society. We don't want dying people on the streets and in the alleys. So if you are sick and you can't work, you should be covered by something.

Economically, this would be good because research institutions will be keen to suck on the government teet to find cures for obscure diseases and work on the most expensive illnesses (which will then drive down the cost of treating those illnesses- supply and demand at work).

Nationally, this would be good because it will encourage the top scientists to come to america. It will encourage greater research. It will help keep America at the top of the heap in terms of science and research- a distinction we are losing very quickly (as though we haven't lost it already). In short, we can use this to greatly enhance our competitiveness with other countries in the fields of science.

Finally, financially, it won't take much money to give this kind of service because few people actually rack up that kind of debt.

Of course, for me and you, we would still need an insurance policy to cover at least the $10,000 deductible. And we may want more insurance, in order to secure superior healthcare options beyond the deductible. However, the insurance will be cheaper as a result of the national plan, thereby making it more affordable for everyone.
 
People need to stop thinking that the place of the government is to provide everything for them and to solve all their problems. Unfortunately that will never happen because politicians of either side will promise everything they can to get elected and people will continue to vote in the corrupt bastards that promise them the most no matter how much they're taxed and no matter how much freedom they lose from depending on big governement to provide for them. Politicians should be prevented from being elected more than once so that people making a career out of politics could be prevented.
 
I like the people who say that the government doesn't owe people anything.

If you think about it, it's really just about the most ridiculous statement ever. Of COURSE the government owes you something!!!!

HISTORY LESSON
Remember the Revolutionary War? The whole point of that was that British government was taking too much and giving too little. They OWED us more. So we started our own little nation with our own little government.

Even now, if you pay taxes, then your government owes you something for that money. If you abide by the laws and the rules, then the government owes you something for your consent to "play along". If you help your community, then the government owes you something (safety, security, etc). Yes, the government owes you things. That's the point of a government.

I think that, if you believe the government doesn't owe you anything, then really, you're condoning a government that takes your money and gives nothing in return.
 
Very true. The problem is that the Government has gone way beyond what the framers set out and it has grown to take, take and take from the producers to give to the non-producers in order to buy votes which are used to stay in power.
 
Sir Humpsalot said:
HISTORY LESSON
Remember the Revolutionary War? The whole point of that was that British government was taking too much and giving too little. They OWED us more. So we started our own little nation with our own little government.

Even now, if you pay taxes, then your government owes you something for that money. If you abide by the laws and the rules, then the government owes you something for your consent to "play along". If you help your community, then the government owes you something (safety, security, etc). Yes, the government owes you things. That's the point of a government.
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Ummmmm, no. The whole point was that the British government was taxing the colonists without giving the colonists representation in the British government. Hence, the rallying cry (as it still is in DC) was No Taxation Without Representation.

As for the government owing me things for my taxes, of course it does, like roads and road maintenance, police and fire services, a military, emergency relief due to catastrophic events, municipal parks and buildings, ect... There are lots of things I already get for my tax dollars. Unfortunately, I also get to fund the making of unnecessary laws, politicians salaries, and government lobbyists.
 
I must have missed the part where anyone said the government didn't owe them anything.

On the other hand I see a lot of people saying that people shouldn't expect the government to provide everything for them, take care of them, etc.. ( especially with respect to healthcare )

Imagine this. If, god-forbid you get in trouble find yourself needing the services of a lawyer do you want:

A. The best lawyer you can afford
or
B. The court appointed attorney that the government provides for you

??

Of course you don't want the attorney that the government provides unless you're just stupid.

Now consider the same scenario would apply if the government decide they were going to provide universal healthcare. You get sick and need a doctor. Do you want to wait in line for months for the doctor that a bunch of bureocrats and politicians think is appropriate for you while politicians and bureocrats skip to the front of the line ? No.

Bottom line is that government makes a mess out of anything and everything it gets involved in. Universal Healthcare will be a disaster.

For me, no thank you I don't want universal healthcare and I'd greatly appreciate the socialists of the world not taking it upon themselves to help themselves to my income in the name of the greater good to provide it for those that can't or won't provide it for themselves. I do a better job of providing for my family than the government ever will, why should I do with less just because some pinko socialists think they're entitiled to my hardwork and income in the name of fairness ?
 
EdWort said:
Very true. The problem is that the Government has gone way beyond what the framers set out and it has grown to take, take and take from the producers to give to the non-producers in order to buy votes which are used to stay in power.
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If that was true a guy like Bush would never have been elected. I'm not disputing that the government takes money from those of us who work hard and gives it to undeserving welfare moms, it does. I'm just saying if that activity helped politicians stay in power there would be no Republicans in office.
 
Don't kid yourself to think that Republican's don't redistribute the wealth just the same as Democrats do. There's barely a nickles worth of difference between the two parties, they're all corrupt bastards.
 
TheJadedDog said:
If that was true a guy like Bush would never have been elected. I'm not disputing that the government takes money from those of us who work hard and gives it to undeserving welfare moms, it does. I'm just saying if that activity helped politicians stay in power there would be no Republicans in office.
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It's builds bridges to no where, funds stupid pet projects, wastes billions each year, and congress steals the Social Security surplus each and every year.

Bush got elected by electoral college which makes sure all the states with working, tax paying folk get a voice too.

I pretty much agree with Mutilated1 in that they are all corrupt bastiges.
 
mrfocus said:
Why would you need universal health care?

Funnily I watched a show this weekend that listed the top 5 countries for life longevity. Although Canada wasn't in the top 5 (it is 6th) we are pretty high up there. The USA was 42nd...

The good way to think about it is: The longer people live healthy, the longer they will be able to work, the longer they will be able to pay taxes. So by spending a certain amount on universal health care, you gain more money by having a healthier working population.
Click to expand...


I disagree. People who have other than a basic health care problem in Canada come to the USA for treatment. You would be stunned at the number of people from Canada and the UK that come to the USA for MRIs and cancer treatment. Its hard to wait 25 weeks for initial treatment for a fast growing brain tumor. This is also done with elective surgery... for example the hip replacement center for Canada is in Cleveland,OH.

I don't know how to fix the system ( maybe just go back to the old free market system where there were few problems ) but most socialized medicine is a failure, it simply provides a base level of low care to everyone and encourages no breakthrough technologies.

Also as I think of it we already have our own example of socialized medicine in the USA. Just look at the veterans Administration... want that for your family?
 
TheJadedDog said:
Ummmmm, no. The whole point was that the British government was taxing the colonists without giving the colonists representation in the British government. Hence, the rallying cry (as it still is in DC) was No Taxation Without Representation.
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So by "No", you really mean "yes" right? You're saying that the government was taking money but not giving the colonists enough for their contribution. In this case, they weren't giving enough representation in government.

So you really agree with what I'm saying, you just feel like arguing. Am I right? Go ahead.... disagree....
 
Sir Humpsalot said:
So by "No", you really mean "yes" right? You're saying that the government was taking money but not giving the colonists enough for their contribution. In this case, they weren't giving enough representation in government.

So you really agree with what I'm saying, you just feel like arguing. Am I right? Go ahead.... disagree....
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Well if you want to argue semantics...:D
 
I saw an article online today about a married couple who want to move to New Zealand. Unfortunately for them, they are both overweight and NZ won't let them in because they will overtax the health care system. It seems the husband has lost enough weight to gain admittance - the wife still is struggling back home to lose a few more pounds so she can meet the weight requirements ...FOR MOVING TO A FRIGGIN COUNTRY!

Government ANYTHING automatically means bureaucrats who couldn't get a job in the private sector get to run your life and make decisions about how you live. Free health care ... yea, that won't be complicated or anything.

I used to play online poker now and then. You send the people $100 and you play texas hold'em tournaments at $6 a pop. It was one of those things I truly enjoyed in the evenings - having a brew and playing an hour's worth of poker on my laptop while my wife watched TV. Now I can't because of the Port Security Law that now forbids moving money through neteller (or other such online wallet) to overseas places. PartyPoker.com in a capitulation to the US Govt won't even accept accounts from US addresses anymore. Get government involved in anything and it is OVERKILL. One size fits all rules, regulations and mandates.
 
I know I'm comming in late to this discussion but I'll put in my two cents in anyway. I was diagnosed with diabetes in 2005 while the company I worked for at that time had Blue Cross. Got treatment and had it under control in about 2 months mainly because the insurance directed me what to do to keep me healthy. However, when I was laid off December of 2005, I lost my insurance and worked as an IT contractor for a while. During that time I was told that because I had diabetes I could not get Health insurance for me or my family. I had to pay $120 to see my doctor plus $350 for the blood work every three months. Medications cost $300 a month for my shots and another $45 for Metformin and $95 for Actos. Before my doctors were $25 copay and $0 for blood work, and medications were $50, $10, and $25. I did that for about 6 months and found a job with health insurance. However, I was told by the insurance company that diabetes is a pre-existing conditions and they were not going to cover it unless I received not treatment for 2 years. By that time, I'd be dead. So that wasn't an option. I continued to pay my diabetes treatment myself. When my new employer changed to Blue Cross, I was once again covered because I was diagnosed under them originally. Universal health care? My thoughts are we need something. What I went through was HELL. :mad: Being treated like a second class citizen and being actually told that it was my fault that I got diabetes really made me PO'd. I saw what they did in San Francisco and am wondering if that's what we need. Something similar to what we have for education. Public health care for everyone and if you are not happy with it or need extra or special care get private health. Employers could have an agreement with health care networks that would be above public health. The US ALMOST has that in place with county hospitals and health clinics. We just need to tweek it and we may have it. We need to start with the insurance companies by kicking them in the balls until their eyes pop out or burning them at the steak. Or both. I'm not picky. :D
 
ScabaSteve said:
On another note, I was watching a show on MSNBC about homeless youth in SanFran, and realized that only in America do you see fat homeless people.
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I am for leaner homeless people.
 

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