Mash pH and baking soda

I've been controlling the pH of my beers for about a year now...and I can tell you that they've been the best beers I've ever brewed. Started with ajdelange's brewing water primer and have kind of evolved from there.

In my experience so far, my goal for mash pH has been 5.2 at room temperature. As I said, the beers have been really good; I actually won Reserve Best of Show (with more than one of my entries winning first in their categories) in the county fair this past September. So, it's not just my own subjective opinion, ha.

But I recently read that pH is actually about .2 points higher at room temperature than at mash temperature, which means that pH 5.2 room temp is actually somewhere closer to 5.0 at mash temp. That's a little lower than the optimum range, which I'm sure is okay; as I said the beers have been really good, but what I want is to brew the very BEST that I can. So, I decided that I'd shoot for a room temp pH of 5.4-5.5 (mash pH of 5.2-5.3).

Yesterday, I brewed American IPA and measured the pH of my mash...it was right around 5.29 at room temperature. I wanted to increase this to about 5.5 and so I decided to add some baking soda. I had no idea how much to add and I couldn't find anything definitive online so I just added 1tsp to my mash. WOW...that literally took the pH up into the range of 6.5-6.7.

Thankfully, I had some acidulated malt measured and milled for just this occasion and I threw it in there and got the pH back down to around 5.43, which is good. Freaked me out though!

A couple of questions:

1.
Generally speaking, is there a rule of thumb for using baking soda to do an ad hoc pH adjustment? I understand it depends on many many factors.

2.
Speculation is probably the name of the game here, but is that brief (maybe 10 minutes or so) spike in pH gonna mess up the taste of my beer?? I'll find out for sure in about 4-5 weeks when I tap the keg, but if anyone has experience with this kind of situation, lemme know.

Thanks.

Sodium bicarbonate is pure alkalinity (plus sodium) and so a little goes a long way. One approach to its use is to make a test mash before the main brew and then scale up. Or, as you have learned, add the bicarbonate in tiny increments. One way to do this is dissolve a tsp. in 100 mL of water and then add a mL or 2 of that at a time. Be sure to allow a few minutes for reactions to take place.

I don't think having the pH run high for a few minutes will do much harm. The idea is that enzymes are most effective in a particular range of pH and if you are outside that range they won't work as well. Presumably as soon as you get back into the desired range they then go to work at best efficiency. There is, however, a lot more to it than just having the amylases do their jobs so really the proof of the beer will be in the drinking.

ajdelange said:

Sodium bicarbonate is pure alkalinity (plus sodium) and so a little goes a long way. One approach to its use is to make a test mash before the main brew and then scale up. Or, as you have learned, add the bicarbonate in tiny increments. One way to do this is dissolve a tsp. in 100 mL of water and then add a mL or 2 of that at a time. Be sure to allow a few minutes for reactions to take place.

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Solid advice. I've done a test mash before but this time I was kind of shooting from the hip. Until I figure out how to consistently achieve my new pH goal, maybe I'll keep some diluted baking soda on hand as you mentioned. I had no idea the effect would be so profound!

ajdelange said:

I don't think having the pH run high for a few minutes will do much harm. The idea is that enzymes are most effective in a particular range of pH and if you are outside that range they won't work as well. Presumably as soon as you get back into the desired range they then go to work at best efficiency. There is, however, a lot more to it than just having the amylases do their jobs so really the proof of the beer will be in the drinking.

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I figured (hoped) this would be the case. I didn't do a starch test but my efficiency was within the expected range. I basically know enough about brewing chemistry to be dangerous, but most of it is high level understanding. So, I just wasn't sure if the pH spike would somehow destroy the enzymes like a spike in temperature might.

I will try to remember to post my results once I taste the final product...gimme about 5 or 6 weeks

ajdelange said:

Sodium bicarbonate is pure alkalinity (plus sodium) and so a little goes a long way. One approach to its use is to make a test mash before the main brew and then scale up. Or, as you have learned, add the bicarbonate in tiny increments. One way to do this is dissolve a tsp. in 100 mL of water and then add a mL or 2 of that at a time. Be sure to allow a few minutes for reactions to take place.
.

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I stumbled across this post today trying to get a grasp on increasing my mash pH. This helps a ton!!

Will this mean that by taking out a sample, cool it, and measure 5.2, I'm actually mashing at 5.0? Should I target 5.4 in a rom-temp-sample to actually mash at 5.2?

Don't know if you will be as low as 5.0 as the actual shift depends on the particular malt properties but yes, the pH does drop some as temperature increases. Most of the brewing world talks room temperature pH but that is not always the case. If you see recommended mash pH in the 5.4 - 5.6 region you can be pretty sure that room temperature pH is being discussed. If you see recommendations of 5.2 - 5.4 you can be pretty sure that this author hasn't gotten the word and should try to confirm that he is talking mash temperature though this isn't always possible to do.

ajdelange said:

Don't know if you will be as low as 5.0 as the actual shift depends on the particular malt properties but yes, the pH does drop some as temperature increases. Most of the brewing world talks room temperature pH but that is not always the case. If you see recommended mash pH in the 5.4 - 5.6 region you can be pretty sure that room temperature pH is being discussed. If you see recommendations of 5.2 - 5.4 you can be pretty sure that this author hasn't gotten the word and should try to confirm that he is talking mash temperature though this isn't always possible to do.

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Aha. Thanks. So.. That means in Bru'n'Water I should try to target 5.4, I guess?

you really should be measuring any variables at the temperature of the conditions those variables will be working at, unless your equipment can't measure at the appropriate temperature.

Right. I've just been measuring at room temps, to save the probe, and since I've understood that you "should" measure at room temp.

Weezy said:

you really should be measuring any variables at the temperature of the conditions those variables will be working at, unless ...

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...there are practical reasons not to do so as is the case in brewing.

ajdelange said:

...there are practical reasons not to do so as is the case in brewing.

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Can I shoot you a quick question?

I've recently started brewing on a new setup. I loved the extreme mouthfeel I'm getting, i'ts a no sparge setup. But just now recently I've realized that it's too much. It's not an FG or such-issue. But I've been targeting 98PPM of chlorides, and 5 sulfates. I'm brewing an IPA tomorrow and I'm not sure which parameter I want to change. So far for tomorrows brew I've dialed in 47 PPM of chlorides. Is 98PPM chlorides "excessive"? IPA's PA's, Belgians, English types (this isn't bad for an english type though) have all come in with this very soft and thick mouthfeel. Will dialing back to 47PPM of chlorides make a noticable difference?`I thought of adding sulfates too.. but then I thought why just not try with less chlorides first?

Chloride is the ion associated mouthfeel so I'd say start by reducing that first. You may want to experiment with adding some calcium chloride to a beer that you don't consider to be particularly large in mouthfeel to get an idea as to how chloride ion effects the perception of this.

ajdelange said:

Chloride is the ion associated mouthfeel so I'd say start by reducing that first. You may want to experiment with adding some calcium chloride to a beer that you don't consider to be particularly large in mouthfeel to get an idea as to how chloride ion effects the perception of this.

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I've tried that. But I don't yet know "how much is to much". After adding CaCl to regulars beers to test, I decided I want more of this than CaSO4. But what I'm unsure of if is I'm overdoing it by now.

Smellyglove said:

It's not an FG or such-issue. But I've been targeting 98PPM of chlorides, and 5 sulfates. I'm brewing an IPA tomorrow and I'm not sure which parameter I want to change. So far for tomorrows brew I've dialed in 47 PPM of chlorides. Is 98PPM chlorides "excessive"? IPA's PA's, Belgians, English types (this isn't bad for an english type though) have all come in with this very soft and thick mouthfeel. Will dialing back to 47PPM of chlorides make a noticable difference?`I thought of adding sulfates too.. but then I thought why just not try with less chlorides first?

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Excessive? No, but if you are finding the mouthfeel and fullness of the finish too high, then you should plan on reducing your chloride content. Increasing the sulfate content will help dry the finish and help counter the fullness of the finish. An important thing to understand is that sulfate does not make beer bitter. Sulfate dries the beer's finish and allows any bittering and hop flavor that is in the beer to come through more perceptibly to the drinker. Adding significant sulfate content to lightly bittered beers is a way to help them finish more dryly and help avoid a cloying (overly sweet) finish.

mabrungard said:

Excessive? No, but if you are finding the mouthfeel and fullness of the finish too high, then you should plan on reducing your chloride content. Increasing the sulfate content will help dry the finish and help counter the fullness of the finish. An important thing to understand is that sulfate does not make beer bitter. Sulfate dries the beer's finish and allows any bittering and hop flavor that is in the beer to come through more perceptibly to the drinker. Adding significant sulfate content to lightly bittered beers is a way to help them finish more dryly and help avoid a cloying (overly sweet) finish.

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Yes. I know the effect of those two. I've tried in finished beers and doing a "series" with variable amount, from 100% caso4, to 50/50 to 100% cacl. But that was with my old water supply, and to be honest. I didn't keep track of final PPMs, I just know how much I added to that particular water source. I'll try going for 47 PPMs of CaCl and not adding sulfates which would leave me at 5PPMS. I guess people looking for NE IPA ish style would envy me, but it's a bit to much. Thanks for your input.

Smellyglove said:

I've tried that. But I don't yet know "how much is to much". After adding CaCl to regulars beers to test, I decided I want more of this than CaSO4. But what I'm unsure of if is I'm overdoing it by now.

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As it is your own unique palate that you must satisfy there is really no way to do that except to experiment. If you are also interested in cooking you will have seen the phrase "correct the seasonings" and that is what you are trying to do here. From the experiments with sulfate and chloride additions to a neutral beer you will get some idea as to what directions these ions will take you but ultimately you have to brew lots of beers and adjust while taking careful tasting notes.

This is all complicated if your water supply is variable and such a situation represents a strong selling point for RO.

ajdelange said:

As it is your own unique palate that you must satisfy there is really no way to do that except to experiment. If you are also interested in cooking you will have seen the phrase "correct the seasonings" and that is what you are trying to do here. From the experiments with sulfate and chloride additions to a neutral beer you will get some idea as to what directions these ions will take you but ultimately you have to brew lots of beers and adjust while taking careful tasting notes.

This is all complicated if your water supply is variable and such a situation represents a strong selling point for RO.

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Thanks for your input. I think I just answered my own question by sampling a RIS without any form of salts going into it. Mash PH landed where it should, but even with all these malts going into this beer it actually feels thinner on the tongue than my 0.15g/L CaCL-all-other-beers.