Adjustable shelf instead of a pump

I was thinking (ok, daydreaming) about a potential electric brewery on my horizon. When thinking about the design and details, my goal is to keep it as simple as possible. Basically, a two tier system- one level for the kettle with heat elements (higher) and the other level just for mashing (lower). The electric kettle would heat the mash water AND act as a boil kettle.

When thinking about moving water & wort, I started thinking about the typical paths with piping and a pump. Alternatively, I thought that instead of moving hot water and wort with a pump why not use gravity exclusively. Obviously that works initially to dump the hot water into the mash tun, but when done mashing, how do you get the wort back to the HLT for the boil.

So I came to the theory of having the mash tank on a shelf that can be elevated up and down. Either manually or with a motor. The unknown is what is an efficient gear/mechanical system to raise a small (~20"x20") but heavy (70+ lbs) platform. Gears? Worm screw? Pully's? That way, after the mash is done the platform could be raised up above the HLT so gravity could be used to drain the wort back to the HLT pot.

Benefits:

- Simpler design, less plumbing
- Could be cheaper if the cost of the materials/method to raise the shelf are less than the pump and plumbing
- Easier to clean because of less plumbing

Challenges:

- Method to mechanically raise and lower the shelf.
- Hoses or pipes from the HLT pot will have to be flexible or fixed (but removed when the shelf is raised or lowered)

kevreh said:

Benefits:

- Simpler design, less plumbing

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I disagree with this. Less plumbing yes but you have to design and custom make something that can raise and lower 70+ lbs of near or boiling liquid. Pump seems easier and safer to me.

I think you are over thinking this. A pump with quick disconnects is very simple to plumb and cleaning is also pretty damn easy. Not like you have to take the thing apart after each use or anything.

kevreh said:

Challenges:

- Method to mechanically raise and lower the shelf.

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Which is basically everything.

I would love to see this if you can pull it off but it seems like this is anything but simple and whatever you come up with I'd bet it is going to be more expensive than a simple pump. Why not just a 3 tier system that starts with the boil kettle on the top to heat water and then moves below the mashtun to collect the wort and boil.

Like I said, I would like to see it, but it sounds more work than necessary.

winch. I too have been pondering this. the best I've come up with is a single platform with a track above and a winch that can move across the length of the platform on the track, to be attatched to whichever vessel needs elevating.

Yes, the most simple setup would be a 3 tier system where you put a heating element into the top HLT and also in the bottom BK where your controller can either select between those two or you physically unplug and replug the vessel that needs power and control.

It sounded like you're trying to stick to a 2 vessel system, but you are aware that you have to run a no sparge brewing process right? You might as well just use a BIAB process if you're going to do that and then you just need a winch to remove the bag and you get to stick with one vessel.

Bobby_M said:

It sounded like you're trying to stick to a 2 vessel system, but you are aware that you have to run a no sparge brewing process right?

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Ah, this is something I did not think of which I guess makes sense as to why you would need three kettles for a three tier system as in my suggestion... :smack:

Bobby_M said:

Yes, the most simple setup would be a 3 tier system where you put a heating element into the top HLT and also in the bottom BK where your controller can either select between those two or you physically unplug and replug the vessel that needs power and control.

It sounded like you're trying to stick to a 2 vessel system, but you are aware that you have to run a no sparge brewing process right? You might as well just use a BIAB process if you're going to do that and then you just need a winch to remove the bag and you get to stick with one vessel.

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Yeah, I wanted to avoid double sets of heating elements with a 3 tier. But you make a good point about using the same controller to select between the "upper" or "lower" vessel. That could even be a simple 2-way switch in the control panel.

Actually, now that I'm returning to all grain I am pretty much using the BIAB method. Unless I do some kind of RIMs or HERMs, once I drop that bag in the mash tun there's no heat up. But that's fine, adding a RIM system can be a future upgrade.

captwalt said:

winch. I too have been pondering this. the best I've come up with is a single platform with a track above and a winch that can move across the length of the platform on the track, to be attatched to whichever vessel needs elevating.

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Yep, a winch (like this one at Harbor Freight: http://www.harborfreight.com/1000-lb-capacity-hand-winch-65688.html) is probably easiest. Winch mounted to ceiling or frame, vessel needs hook on each side with a cable to connect them and lift by. If you want to get fancy Harbor Freight also has powered winches too.

Nothing says you can't make up a very coarse separation shelf between the low mounted heating element and the bag.

Here is a picture of my two tiered solution with one pump:



I heat the mash water in the boil kettle, then transfer that water to the lower mash tun with the pump.

While mashing, I then heat the sparge water and transfer that to the upper sparge tank with the pump.

Then I gravity feed the water from the sparge tank into the mash tun and use the pump to transfer the wort from the mash tun to the boil kettle.

Works pretty well for me.

Casey

Some ideas that come to mind...

(1) What about a linear actuator motor, maybe from a car (seat adjuster perhaps) Check out American Science & Surplus for idesa - http://www.sciplus.com/category.cfm/subsection/category.cfm/subsection/18 (love the copywriting at this site).

(2) Take a look at the mechanism used in sewing machine cabinets to raise and lower sewing machines. You might be able to adapt or make such a mechanism.

(3) If you have an air compressor you could use regulated air operated piston rams.

Whatever you decide, have a failsafe back up. Eg. maybe include a ratchet mechanism to ensure the whole weight is not just hanging on a cog or a piston.

Good luck, and keep us posted on progress.

Kevreh,
I've been racking my brain trying to figure out a similar setup. I'm doing BIAB, so my needs might be a bit different. Someone posted a thread a few weeks ago with an idea, but I don't think any great practical solutions were found. Someone humorously suggested that you could design a see-saw system to raise the kettles up and down relative to each other.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/single-tier-no-pump-brew-stand-378705/
I've tried to look into 2 ideas:

1. small hoist/winch and trolley that would lift hoist the bag/basket out of the kettle and move it over to set it down. I'm thinking that "surely there are solutions already out there so I don't have to reinvent the wheel". All I find are things that can move a ton or so.

2. I believe it's "Johnny" who posted his 2-vessel BIAB in which he pumps strike water into bag-lined mashtun, then uses gravity to drain back into his kettle. Building on his idea, I've wondered about starting out in one kettle just like the usual BIAB, then raising this kettle up to gravity drain into the boil kettle.

I've been trying to figure out a small mechanism that uses similar technology to the Genie Lift:
http://www.genie-lift.com/index.cfm?mf=browse.showPart&partClassID=1636&PName=Load Lifter

But, again, googling around, possibly not using the correct terms, doesn't find me a DIY lift table.

I'm about to come to the conclusion that having a pump would be much simpler.

I look forward to seeing what ideas you come up with.

Thanks,
Keith

check out this hoist. my friend has one of these in his bar. It is extremely easy to use and move around. It works great.

http://www.gorillakeglifter.com/

kevreh, I applaud your way of thinking! When I built my e-rig over the last few months I originally wanted to do exactly what you are/were thinking about. I had sketched up several methods, including a winch design, a leadscrew with nut design, and even a timing belt design. I was going to use mechanical limit switches at top and bottom. I have a lot of access to these types of parts where I work and I have collected lots of things like gear motors, guide shafts, bearing blocks, pulleys, etc. In fact I had my hands on a 1-1/4" dia. leadscrew and brass nut which I was leaning toward using because with the other designs I was worried what would happen if something broke (i.e. 8 gallons hot wort suddenly dropping 2 feet). I finally abandoned the concept of a lift altogether and decided I would manually lift the full BK from the floor instead. Its a little heavy at 8 gallons but its the only lifting I have to do really. I still don't use any pumps. I batch sparge with a tippy dump HLT that I had built for my propane rig. I lauter out of the rectangular cooler MLT into the BK on the floor. I pick up the full BK and set on shelf to boil, then I cool through a CFC by gravity into a carboy on the floor. I'm planning a write up soon with more pics of the whole brewery but for now here's one pic to give you an idea...



Good luck with your project and be sure to share what you decide to do...

Thanks TH....I like your setup... looks clean and effective. I'm also planning to build something like your fermentation chamber, so that will be helpful.

Yeah, I may adopt your "manual lift" method since there's bigger fish to fry; mainly making my ebrew setup. BTW, what are those controls under the window, off to the right?

Also...one more question if I can .... It looks like you put an aluminum light shell on your fan. Does it capture enough of the steam? I was planning using a similar type of fan with a square hood. What you used takes up less of a footprint though.

kevreh said:

Thanks TH....I like your setup... looks clean and effective. I'm also planning to build something like your fermentation chamber, so that will be helpful.

Yeah, I may adopt your "manual lift" method since there's bigger fish to fry; mainly making my ebrew setup. BTW, what are those controls under the window, off to the right?

Also...one more question if I can .... It looks like you put an aluminum light shell on your fan. Does it capture enough of the steam? I was planning using a similar type of fan with a square hood. What you used takes up less of a footprint though.

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I promise to do a complete write up soon! But in the mean time...

The controls I made from scratch. There's a PWM board to control temps and that's pretty much it. The rest is just on/off's and lights.



You guessed right on the hood. It works fantastic. Not too small at all. The key here is the fan - my first one was just a duct booster and it wasn't powerful enough. It makes all the difference in the world. I'm using a Tjernlund 6" (M-6).

Ok, I think I understand the controls now. Looks like you converted over to all electric(?) IIRC your thread about your brew rig doesn't show this, must be v 1.0

Cool!

kevreh said:

. . . Alternatively, I thought that instead of moving hot water and wort with a pump why not use gravity exclusively. Obviously that works initially to dump the hot water into the mash tun, but when done mashing, how do you get the wort back to the HLT for the boil.

So I came to the theory of having the mash tank on a shelf that can be elevated up and down. Either manually or with a motor. The unknown is what is an efficient gear/mechanical system to raise a small (~20"x20") but heavy (70+ lbs) platform. Gears? Worm screw? Pully's? That way, after the mash is done the platform could be raised up above the HLT so gravity could be used to drain the wort back to the HLT pot.

Click to expand...

Kevreh,

Sorry to post again on your thread. I was surfing thru old threads and came upon the following thread by shortyjacobs which might give you an alternate idea:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/incredible-invisible-ag-sculpture-picture-heavy-157905/

Actually two ideas are shown in this thread:
1. shortyjacobs simply has a winch/hoist attached to his ceiling to hoist his mashtun and boil kettle (whichever he needs elevated) high enough to allow gravity to work.

2. ClaudiusB shows his solution on post #18. He has almost exactly what I've been wanting to do: a joist mounted to a sliding trolley. It appears that he can hoist his kettle AND move it horizontally some distance.

Perhaps you could figure a way to modify one of those ideas to suit your needs

Respectfully,
Keith

Fellas, why not just use another vessel to collect your runnings? Collect runnings in a 3rd vessel, then gravity drain sparge water into mash tun, pour runnings into BK, then repeat with sparge runnings. This keeps you from having to lift a full pre-boil volume and it also keeps you from having to buy a big vessel like you normally see in a 3 vessel rig. You only need something big enough to collect 3-4 gallons, so you could use a 5 gallon pot, something from the kitchen, even a food grade bucket

DustBow said:

Fellas, why not just use another vessel to collect your runnings? Collect runnings in a 3rd vessel, then gravity drain sparge water into mash tun, pour runnings into BK, then repeat with sparge runnings. This keeps you from having to lift a full pre-boil volume and it also keeps you from having to buy a big vessel like you normally see in a 3 vessel rig. You only need something big enough to collect 3-4 gallons, so you could use a 5 gallon pot, something from the kitchen, even a food grade bucket

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That makes sense. just like the little old lady in the Phillips Milk of Magnesia commercial on TV said after her daughter lectures her needing to be "regular". Sorry, that was 30 years ago.

One reason I was researching this was a way to avoid lifting a heavy bag of hot, wet, sticky grain - especially if I were doing a large batch. Instead of single-vessel BIAB, it would be 2-vessel. Your suggestion makes perfect sense, especially in light of all the rigamarole (sp) required to lift/lower kettles. Just empty a pitcher at a time and pour into the 2nd kettle.

Thanks,
Keith

DustBow said:

Fellas, why not just use another vessel to collect your runnings? Collect runnings in a 3rd vessel, then gravity drain sparge water into mash tun, pour runnings into BK, then repeat with sparge runnings. This keeps you from having to lift a full pre-boil volume and it also keeps you from having to buy a big vessel like you normally see in a 3 vessel rig. You only need something big enough to collect 3-4 gallons, so you could use a 5 gallon pot, something from the kitchen, even a food grade bucket

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I have used a bucket to drain runnings when maxing out a single vessel BIAB mash (e.g., 26 lbs grain, 12 gal water, 15 gal pot). Easy enough to do, and it obviously made the bag lighter to lift, and more importantly alleviated my concerns that the bag might fail. I suspect the bag would have been fine, but better safe than sorry.

kzimmer0817 said:

Kevreh,

Sorry to post again on your thread. I was surfing thru old threads and came upon the following thread by shortyjacobs which might give you an alternate idea:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/incredible-invisible-ag-sculpture-picture-heavy-157905/

Actually two ideas are shown in this thread:
1. shortyjacobs simply has a winch/hoist attached to his ceiling to hoist his mashtun and boil kettle (whichever he needs elevated) high enough to allow gravity to work.

2. ClaudiusB shows his solution on post #18. He has almost exactly what I've been wanting to do: a joist mounted to a sliding trolley. It appears that he can hoist his kettle AND move it horizontally some distance.

Perhaps you could figure a way to modify one of those ideas to suit your needs

Respectfully,
Keith

Click to expand...

Thanks for that link Keith. Winches are easy to get so that would be simple to implement. I like how he puts the hooks on the handles so he can tip the kettles. Good thread to use as a reference.