Starter or no starter

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

NewBrew75

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2008
Messages
137
Reaction score
2
Location
Kansas City, MO
I hear many people talking about making starters for their 5 gallon brew, even though they may start with a smack pack or White Labs vial. Unless you have a high gravity beer or suspect that your yeast is not healthy(long shipping time, exposed to high temps, etc), why would most bother with a starter. Supposedly the yeast is pitchable as-is, right? Is this just an extra measure to make sure the yeast is healthy, or is it more beneficial than a regular healthy pitch from the pack/vial?
 
The pitching calculator at Mr Malty is the optimum way to do things.

Personally for me if the beer is less than 1.050, I won't use a starter. If it's over, then I'll make one or use two packets of Nottingham.
 
I brewed 10 gallons of Amber and split into 2 seperate batches. I made a starter for one 5 gallon batch, and just pitched a smack pack as is for the other. The one with the starter showed early signs of activity in about 2 hours. Making a starter is just a way to promote healthy yeast faster. It also is another fun aspect of homebrewing. I mean how fun is it to be playing with beakers and bunson burners!
 
I brewed 10 gallons of Amber and split into 2 seperate batches. I made a starter for one 5 gallon batch, and just pitched a smack pack as is for the other. The one with the starter showed early signs of activity in about 2 hours. Making a starter is just a way to promote healthy yeast faster. It also is another fun aspect of homebrewing. I mean how fun is it to be playing with beakers and bunson burners!

Exactly, hehe.
 
I hear many people talking about making starters for their 5 gallon brew, even though they may start with a smack pack or White Labs vial. Unless you have a high gravity beer or suspect that your yeast is not healthy(long shipping time, exposed to high temps, etc), why would most bother with a starter. Supposedly the yeast is pitchable as-is, right? Is this just an extra measure to make sure the yeast is healthy, or is it more beneficial than a regular healthy pitch from the pack/vial?

From what I have absorbed from the experts around here, it depends on the yeast. What type of yeast are you using?
 
I hear many people talking about making starters for their 5 gallon brew, even though they may start with a smack pack or White Labs vial. Unless you have a high gravity beer or suspect that your yeast is not healthy(long shipping time, exposed to high temps, etc), why would most bother with a starter. Supposedly the yeast is pitchable as-is, right? Is this just an extra measure to make sure the yeast is healthy, or is it more beneficial than a regular healthy pitch from the pack/vial?

The reasoning for making a starter when dealing with liquid yeast is simple; even under ideal circumstances, there are never enough viable cells in either a smack pack or a single vial. Consult the Mr Malty calculator linked by McKBrew to see the numbers first hand.

Incidentally, there is an excellent Brew Strong podcast that explains the nuts and bolts of making starters, as well as the reasons to do so.
 
Are starters needed for like Edwort's Apfelwein recipe with the Montrachet wine yeast?
 
That's great, but why exactly do you believe that?

picard-facepalm.jpg
 
Chimone,

I have a boat that requires that I should always use 89 octane. I could just believe the manual, but I find that I know more about my boat and how to take care of the engine if I know why exactly the reason for using 89. It burns hotter, ignites under higher pressure, thus preventing pre-ignition that could damage the engine. Somehow, I like knowing that, and it helps me understand the science behind taking care of my boat. Just the same, I bet the more I know about the science of brewing, the better brew I can produce.

Was your most recent reply because you don't know exactly why making a starter should always be used, or are you just too lazy to reply in detail your opinions?
 
Was your most recent reply because you don't know exactly why making a starter should always be used, or are you just too lazy to reply in detail your opinions?


becasue Im too lazy to explain for the 1083421018320978th time why making a starter is better. Feel free to do the research on your own though. By all means new brew, do a search at least before getting defensive
 
Chimone,

Was your most recent reply because you don't know exactly why making a starter should always be used, or are you just too lazy to reply in detail your opinions?

It's because at least twice the pitching calculator at mrmalty was linked to/mentioned. It's because every one who responded said that there simply aren't enough yeast cells to do the job in a smack pack or vial, even though the vial might say "pitchable" on it. It's because people took time in some detail to explain it. Someone also gave you a link to an awesome podcast that would explain it in even greater detail.

And then, you asked "are you just too lazy to reply in detail?" How much more detail do you think you'll need?
 
You want the answer laid out in detail on a pretty platter just for you...do you think we're breaking new ground here in this thread? Just take a guess.

Who is lazy?
 
Yooperbrew, Coastarine,

I appreciate your criticism, well not actually because my last reply I was not talking to you. To all the people that answered my question with helpful advice, I thank you much. It's helped me greatly. I already know that many people advise making a starter. I was curious why. Chimone's first reply didn't tell me anything I didn't already know. So I asked him why he said I should make a starter every time. He responded with more or less an insult. This thread is here to help right? Why does he even bother responding if he's not helping. I have already began reading several books, but it doesn't replace the HELPFUL advice from people that know it and have experienced it first hand. If you feel you've explained it too many times, then don't reply. I'll take my advice from people that are willing to help. And the more the merrier. All of you were beginner brewers at one point in time.

All this got out of hand pretty quickly. Chimone, to be very honest, you seem very knowledgable and experienced. I'd sure like to know your take on my original question. But if it's too much hassle, it's cool. I won't worry about it.

Look, I don't mean to pick fights here. It just seemed like I was almost getting mocked for asking a "stupid" question. I kinda itched me the wrong way. I apologize for getting snappy. I'm trying to learn this stuff as fast as I can, but there's a lot to learn, and I appreciate anyone's sincere help along the way.
 
The info was already given to you. Thats why I posted the face palm. I apologize for offending you

Most homebrewers start out pitching a Wyeast packet. How much are you actually underpitching with one of these 50 ml pouches? Assuming all the yeast in a Wyeast packet are viable (only about 25% truly are!), we are adding only 50 ml of about 60 million/cells per ml. This translates into a pitching rate of 150,000 cells per ml . Thus with a single Wyeast packet you are underpitching by a factor of at least 35 for ales and almost 100-fold for lagers. What is the big deal about underpitching. Well remember that very little yeast growth should go on in the fermenter. There should be no more than 3 or 4 cell division which should take place during the first few hours of fermentation. If underpitched the yeast will spend much more time trying to grow to adequate quantities. During this extended growth period the yeast tend to secrete more esters and fusel alcohols. Moreover they may not have a sufficient number to adequately metabolize (digest) all of the fermentable sugars. So what you end up with is a beer with off-flavors (such as esters, fusel alcohols, diacetyl, acetaldehyde) and a high finishing gravity. Thus it is important to always make a starter and make it a relatively big one. Remember that you want the yeast to spend most of their energy making alcohol not babies in a fermenter!!
 
You may not have intended to direct comments at me or Coastarine, but in a forum, we're all talking to each other so it's hard to tell.

Hopefully you found the information you were looking for.
 
I heard you only need a starter for high gravity beer, as long as you use good viable yeast for low gravity you don't need a starter i.e white labs
 
I heard you only need a starter for high gravity beer, as long as you use good viable yeast for low gravity you don't need a starter i.e white labs

Well, it's true that you may get good results without a starter. But it's also true that you tend to be underpitching by quite a bit without one. If you look at the links provided, there is some great information on pitching rates and yeast health.
 
Thanks for everyones input. I bought the supplies to make a stir plate today, and a flask(although I think I paid too much for the flask - $28 for a 2 L pyrex??) Oh well, I was impatient and I wanted it. The Mr. Malty calculator is a great tool. Thanks again for your help.
 
Im with you NewBrew...this snotty "tude" towards new members is a major weak spot around here. When you ask a question and the response is "just do it" and you ask again why then he posts a derrogatory pic...Its plain rude no matter whats going on or how ever many resources there are. I feel your pain.

Chimone: you are doing no one any favors acting like that but go ahead and keep patting yourself on the back
 
Chimone: you are doing no one any favors acting like that but go ahead and keep patting yourself on the back

you give an explanation, then not but 3 posts later someone comes by after completely ignoring your post and posts something contradictory to what you just said.


yes, that deserves the facepalm.
 
From the Mr. Malty link:

-The starter’s purpose is to create enough clean, healthy yeast to ferment your batch under optimum conditions. The primary focus of a starter should always be yeast health first and increased cell growth second. Many brewers mistakenly focus on cell growth at the expense of yeast health. It is much better to have a smaller number of very healthy, young cells than it is to have a large number of weak, cells.

-Do I always need to make a starter? No. However, in many cases, making a starter will provide better fermentation. You should always make a starter if you suspect the viability (overall health) of your yeast might be low. If you have an old vial or pack of yeast or the yeast has been left out warm for an extended period of time (for example yeast in shipping for several days), you should make a starter.

-According to both White Labs and Wyeast, a White Labs Pitchable Yeast vial and a Wyeast ACTIVATOR™ 125 XL Smack Pack both contain an average of 100 billion cells and are enough to pitch directly into 5 US gallons (18.9 liters) of an ale wort at 1.048 SG (12°P). This is a pitching rate of 5.3 million cells per milliliter, which is close to the pitching rate many professional breweries begin with when starting a new pitch of ale yeast. This rate works well because the health and vitality of fresh laboratory cultured yeast are superior to yeast harvested from normal fermentation. Both companies also concur that higher gravity worts, especially once they exceed a specific gravity of 1.060 (15°P), larger wort volumes, and lager fermentations all require higher pitching rates (or a starter) for optimum results.

-Here is the simple math to calculate the number of cells needed. For an ale, you want to pitch around 0.75 million cells of viable yeast, for every milliliter of wort, for every degree Plato.

-(0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort)

-There are about 3785 milliliters in a gallon. There are about 20,000 milliliters in 5.25 US gallons.

-One degree Plato is close to 1.004 of specific gravity (SG). Just divide the decimal portion of the SG by 4 to get the approximate degrees Plato (e.g., 1.060 is 15°P).

-The proper amount of yeast for 5.25 US gallons of 1.060 wort is around 225 billion cells if you are pitching 0.75 million per milliliter.

-(750,000) X (20,000) X (15) = 225,000,000,000

-Another way to put it, you need about 3 ¾ billion cells for each point of OG when pitching into a little over 5 gallons (20 liters) of wort. Double that number for a lager.

-You might ask why not pitch as much yeast as possible? Over pitching causes other problems with beer flavor, such as a lack of esters. Changes in the flavor profile are noticeable when the pitch rates are as little as 20% over the recommended amount.

-In summary, the products from White Labs and Wyeast are excellent, yet when making a bigger beer or when the yeast has been abused or is old, a clean, properly prepared starter will result in consistent, well fermented beers. Always try to keep your process simple rather than complex and always ask yourself if the beer is the way you like it. If you’re making starters, keep track of your process and keep track of the results. In the end, keep the big picture of yeast handling in mind, which is to have healthy yeast first and proper quantities second.

Chimone said:
you give an explanation, then not but 3 posts later someone comes by after completely ignoring your post and posts something contradictory to what you just said.

You didn't give an explanation, just started out with a "do it". That doesn't help anyone learn. If you don't want to answer or don't really know the answer, why post? Just want to whine about having to answer a question you've answered before? Seems kinda silly.
 
For the love of god don't make a starter if you are going to argue against it.
 
You didn't give an explanation, just started out with a "do it". That doesn't help anyone learn. If you don't want to answer or don't really know the answer, why post? Just want to whine about having to answer a question you've answered before? Seems kinda silly.


Why don't you re-read the whole thread
 
You did post something helpful your third try. Congratulations.

First try would have been better IMO, but if you're trying to hit 4000 posts by the end of the week maybe your way is better.
 
Back
Top