Pliny the Elder recipe questions

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paradoc

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Note: I added a post later in this thread with the full recipe, along with the proposed modifications. You can find it here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/pliny-elder-recipe-questions-125517/index8.html#post1537060

Greetings,

The July/Aug '09 issue of Zymurgy has a recipe for Pliny the Elder from Vinnie Cilurzo. Looks great... but when I put the recipe into BeerAlchemy, the OG calculations are WAY off. Not sure what I'm doing wrong. The recipe calls for:

11 lb 2 row
0.5 lb Crystal 45
0.5 lb Carapils
0.4 lb corn sugar

8 gallons wort from mash, 90 minute boil, 6 gallons into fermenter.
OG from recipe: 1.070
FG: 1.011

When I put it into Beer Alchemy, I'm only getting an OG of 1.055. I've checked my efficiency number, and volumes, and all look correct. Can someone plug those numbers into one of the other beer software programs and let me know what you get for OG? I'm sure I've got something wonky in my recipe in BeerAlchemy... but not sure what it is.

Thanks!
 
Looks right on as long as you get 92-93% efficiency. :)

I could just look at that recipe and tell it is not enough grain/sugar. For what it is worth...1.057 with beercalculus.com and 75% efficiency.
 
I get about the same thing in BeerSmith. I'm going to bump the 2row and corn sugar up when I do this recipe next week. I'm choosing not to bump the crystal because Mike said not to. :)
 
the one i have seen was for 29 # of 2-row
+
DME 8.0 lbs
Corn Sugar 1.0 lbs
Dextrine Malt 2.0 lbs
Crystal 40L 1.0 lbs
Wheat Malt 1.0 lbs
*for a 12 gal recipe.
 
I'm choosing not to bump the crystal because Mike said not to. :)

Pardon my ignorance... but who is Mike? Any input on why not to scale the crystal?

I'm thinking about bumping the grain bill up to something like this:
14.5 pounds Maris Otter
0.66 pounds Crystal 40
0.66 pounds Carapils
0.5 pounds corn sugar

That is an increase in my grain bill of 33%, which should yield an OG of 1.058 if I hit my typical 65% efficiency (only done a couple of all grains so far and still working on efficiency), and 1.076 if I can hit 80% efficiency.
 
I noticed the same thing when I put that recipe from the magazine into Beersmith. Something's amiss...

By the way, I'm an IPA lover, and have wanted to try Pliny the Elder forever (but we can't get it here in KY).
I have had the Pliny clone in the current Sam Adams Longshot pack, and didn't like it at all...it was just ridiculously, sharply bitter, like they put all the hops in at the beginning of the boil and didn't bother with flavor or aroma additions. Is the real thing really like that?
 
Is the real thing really like that?


No the real thing is insanely hoppy and works well with bitterness. I wonder just how fresh and handled the Longshot was. I was not able to find any so I never tried it. The early bottles of Pliny I had this year were great, the later batch was somewhat of a letdown on the hoppy scale. I attribute it to age & handling.


I recently brewed this version https://www.homebrewtalk.com/129699-post14.html with some hop substitutions for Warrior (Nuggget) & Columbus (Zeus).
 
Pliny is my favorite beer, I'm only 40 minutes from the Brewery, but it is Fresh on tap at 3 locations blocks from my house!

In an attempt to brew it myself, I have brewed 12 batches in a row, slightly changing the hop bill each time. No sense fooling with the grain bill, it's 2-row, c-45(I actually us a combo of c-15 and c-120 in very small amounts), then carapils and of course corn sugar which gives it a nice dryness. I have actually gotten really close by using a different hop bill and hop schedule. Of course I humbly resign myself to the fact that there is only ONE Pliny and Vinnie has that market cornered for me!

McDole's Long Shot beer is no Pliny!

Eastside
 
Pardon my ignorance... but who is Mike? Any input on why not to scale the crystal?

That is an increase in my grain bill of 33%, which should yield an OG of 1.058 if I hit my typical 65% efficiency (only done a couple of all grains so far and still working on efficiency), and 1.076 if I can hit 80% efficiency.

I'm an idiot. I meant Vinnie, the owner of Russian River, but I got his name mixed up. The reason not to add more crystal is that you don't want to add too much crystal character to the beer. You want a good malt background, but you don't want to take anything away from the hops. At least according to Mike or Tom or Dave or Vinnie.
 
could the added water be an issue with the OG? most that go into the fermentor are 5-5.5, and extra half gallon can cause a lower OG resulting by lower eff. In my opinion, the higher the eff, the more taste your losing just due to the fact that your using less grains. Personally, anything above 75% is just showing off ;) just my personal opinion. I love the color on pliney! 95-100 IBU's is a bit too much for my mouth though, Im thinking of doing this recipe, but cutting it down to maybe 60, and dry hop the rest.
 
Looks right on as long as you get 92-93% efficiency. :)

I could just look at that recipe and tell it is not enough grain/sugar. For what it is worth...1.057 with beercalculus.com and 75% efficiency.

I thought the exact same thing. Eyeballing the recipe, it looked like the grain bill for an APA, not an IIPA. Perhaps he scaled down the recipe assuming the efficiency they get at RRB? I am going to do exactly as has been suggested by others: pump up the 2-row and sugar to get to target OG.

I liked the article though. There were some tips in there that I'm going to definitely consider.
 
I made 15 gallons of a Pliney the elder Clone a couple of days ago... it was actually he IIPA recipe out of Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles... and it says right in the recipe that it is a clone of Pliney.

trying to remember the grain bill (I can double check when I get home) but I think it was something like

(per 5 gallons)

14.5 # Amer two row
.5 # wheat
.5 # Crystal 40
.5 # corn sugar

... not sure on weight but pretty sure those were the grains... for 15 gallons I had a total grain bill of something like 46 pounds without the corn sugar.

I can check tonight if you want.

And I ended up with 15 gallons at 1.082
 
Here's the one I did: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f69/pliny-bastid-21229/

I used an even 12 pounds of 2-row and got an OG of 1.073 at 75%. It was my favorite beer, that's for sure!

I followed this one also, for the most part anyway. I wound up with..

10 1/3 lbs 2 Row
1/4lb Crystal 40
3/4lb Carapils
1lb Corn Sugar

Wound up with 1.074 OG and finished out at 1.014. My hop schedule was a little different because I subsitituted Warrior with Chinook, didn't really want to do that but Chinook is what was available. I just started drinking it and it's pretty brutal in the bitterness department. Needs to mellow for a couple weeks. Regardless though, it's pretty awesome. Good Luck:mug:
 
I can't decide whether to protest Pliney or get on board with the hype. I haven't seen it in AZ, and I love IPAs, but man, this brewery is getting some hype lately.

I guess I need to find one and try it first before I pass judgment.
 
I can't decide whether to protest Pliney or get on board with the hype. I haven't seen it in AZ, and I love IPAs, but man, this brewery is getting some hype lately.

I guess I need to find one and try it first before I pass judgment.

I hear ya, and I'm not one for bandwagons.Can't stand how everyone is a Lakers fan all of the sudden. But when I had Pliney from the brewery I just about fell over. I really don't think it can ever be truely cloned, or any other beer for that matter. But it really is that good, I have yet to find anything that compares. Of course, it's all very subjective.:)
 
I hear ya, and I'm not one for bandwagons.Can't stand how everyone is a Lakers fan all of the sudden. But when I had Pliney from the brewery I just about fell over. I really don't think it can ever be truely cloned, or any other beer for that matter. But it really is that good, I have yet to find anything that compares. Of course, it's all very subjective.:)

almost enough to make me jump on board -- but I still need to taste one :tank:
 
14.5 pounds Maris Otter
0.66 pounds Crystal 40
0.66 pounds Carapils
0.5 pounds corn sugar

That is an increase in my grain bill of 33%, which should yield an OG of 1.058 if I hit my typical 65% efficiency (only done a couple of all grains so far and still working on efficiency), and 1.076 if I can hit 80% efficiency.

Well... I ordered my grain to make the grain bill as shown above. I went ahead and increased the crystal and carapils along with the base malt. It is only a small increase and kept the proportions the same. I tend to like the color slightly darker, and like the flavor imparted by the crystal. I'll let you know how it turns out in a few weeks!
 
I can't decide whether to protest Pliney or get on board with the hype. I haven't seen it in AZ, and I love IPAs, but man, this brewery is getting some hype lately.

I guess I need to find one and try it first before I pass judgment.

Let me tell you that the Elder wasn't the beer from there that made me fall over, it was the Belgians and the Younger. Then I found out about the Elder and thought, heh, all he makes is good freaking beer. If you can, get some. Any of the bottled beer from there is good.
 
Looks like Zymurgy is making roughly the same change as paradoc, although slightly more corn sugar and less 2-row. They had scaled the recipe for 5 gallons, not 6.

13.25 lb (6.01 kg) two-row pale malt
0.6 lb (272 g) Crystal 45 malt
0.6 lb (272 g) Carapils (Dextrin) malt
0.75 lb (340 g) dextrose (corn) sugar
 
so uwjeste, thats the 6 gallon recipe then?

where'd you find the correction.

Im makin this beer soon
 
I have had trouble with alot of the BYO (and others) recipes being way under on gravity when I plug them into promash. Best thing to do is fiddle with it yourself and change the recipe to your system.
 
Well... I brewed this recipe (with the grain modification above) today. Will let you know how it turns out in few weeks!
 
Tasted a sample when I added the second dry hops addition yesterday, and this beer was OUTSTANDING. Best beer I've brewed. Great hop flavor and aroma. I'll keg it in 4-5 days and can't wait to try it! Vinnie recommends drinking IIPA's "green" to preserve the fresh hops flavor.

Just to clarify... I used the grain bill as suggested in my original post, but kept the hops same as from the recipe. It looked to me like the error in scaling only applied to the grain, not the hops. If someone knows otherwise please let us know. There is enough volume loss from the large grain bill and hop-loss that I came out exactly at 6 gallons with an OG of 1.072 after the boil.
 
Tasted a sample when I added the second dry hops addition yesterday, and this beer was OUTSTANDING. Best beer I've brewed. Great hop flavor and aroma. I'll keg it in 4-5 days and can't wait to try it! Vinnie recommends drinking IIPA's "green" to preserve the fresh hops flavor.

Just to clarify... I used the grain bill as suggested in my original post, but kept the hops same as from the recipe. It looked to me like the error in scaling only applied to the grain, not the hops. If someone knows otherwise please let us know. There is enough volume loss from the large grain bill and hop-loss that I came out exactly at 6 gallons with an OG of 1.072 after the boil.

How much water did you use in total for this one? I did this recipe a couple of weeks ago: I used 8 gallons but collected less than 4 (90 minute boil). I reckon the hops must have soaked up at least a gallon.
 
This will be my next brew..It's only my second all grain so I'm naming it Pliny Junior because I figure I will get bad efficiency. I actually never had it before because I live in NJ but once Zymurgy had it as #1 I figured I guess I'll brew it since I can't get it. I know it won't be anywhere close but as long as its a good IPA I'll be happy.
 
How much money are you spending on hops for 5 gallons of a Pliny clone. The clone recipe in Brewing Classic Styles has something like several pounds of hops for a 5 gallon batch...
 
How much water did you use in total for this one? I did this recipe a couple of weeks ago: I used 8 gallons but collected less than 4 (90 minute boil). I reckon the hops must have soaked up at least a gallon.

I started the boil with 8 gallons, and had 6 gallons into the fermenter. I typically lose about 1.25-1.5 gallons from the boil, so I had about 1/2 gallon to hop loses.
 
How much money are you spending on hops for 5 gallons of a Pliny clone. The clone recipe in Brewing Classic Styles has something like several pounds of hops for a 5 gallon batch...

I think I paid 55-60 bones for all the hops in mine. I used little over a pound, 18oz's or so.

I don't know about you guys but mine came out pretty brutal. I brewed it about 4 months ago and it's just starting to settle down. Didn't come out smooth like it does at Russian River. Still damn good though.:mug:
 
I don't mind using hops to bitter a beer but do any of you think that dry hopping is worth it? From what I've read it just adds aroma. While I agree that smelling a beer is great would I want to spend $10-$20 extra to dry hop the beer? Has anyone compared the same recipe of a regular IPA and one that was dry hopped. Just wondering if the extra expense is worth it?
 
I have a question regarding the dry hoping aspect of the recipe? Is it ok to leave the hops added for the entire time? The Hop schedule calls for different hops at different intervals. I do not have to remove the first set of dry hops before adding the next in line do I?
 
I don't mind using hops to bitter a beer but do any of you think that dry hopping is worth it? From what I've read it just adds aroma. While I agree that smelling a beer is great would I want to spend $10-$20 extra to dry hop the beer? Has anyone compared the same recipe of a regular IPA and one that was dry hopped. Just wondering if the extra expense is worth it?

I don't think dry hopping only effects the smell of the brew. I could be wrong here, but I think that referring to it as "hop aroma" is just a way of suggesting that it doesn't add any bitterness to the brew, because the hops must be boiled in the wort to add bitterness. So whatever flavor is imparted via dry hopping is referred to as "aroma". I have noticed a huge difference when dry hopping vs not. I dry hop all my IPA's and APA's as a result, but then again I'm a hophead.
 
I have a question regarding the dry hoping aspect of the recipe? Is it ok to leave the hops added for the entire time? The Hop schedule calls for different hops at different intervals. I do not have to remove the first set of dry hops before adding the next in line do I?

It's been a while since I read this article, but I think Vinny describes leaving them in the whole time. Actually I want to say that they even blow CO2 into the fermenters to stir up the hops that have fallen out of suspension. I could be making that up, but I remember something like that. I think they just dump the yeast, but leave all the hops in the tank.
 
I think I paid 55-60 bones for all the hops in mine. I used little over a pound, 18oz's or so.

I don't know about you guys but mine came out pretty brutal. I brewed it about 4 months ago and it's just starting to settle down. Didn't come out smooth like it does at Russian River. Still damn good though.:mug:

I'm brewing 10G of this on 8/30. I'm following the recipe Vinny put in the last Zymurgy though, which only uses 12.5 oz per 5 gallon batch. My total hop cost is: $48 for 10G, or $24 for 5G. You should start buying in bulk, especially if you're going to be making big IIPA's like this.

:mug:
 
I don't think dry hopping only effects the smell of the brew. I could be wrong here, but I think that referring to it as "hop aroma" is just a way of suggesting that it doesn't add any bitterness to the brew, because the hops must be boiled in the wort to add bitterness. So whatever flavor is imparted via dry hopping is referred to as "aroma". I have noticed a huge difference when dry hopping vs not. I dry hop all my IPA's and APA's as a result, but then again I'm a hophead.


Thanks for this comment. I have only made one other IPA and I did dry hop it but I dont know the difference versus non-dry hopping. I love hops anyway so maybe the next time I'll buy more. For this Pliny clone I'm only doing 1 round of dry hops.
 
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