Historical Beer: Sahti Sahti (Finnish Juniper Ale) -- 1st Place Cat. 23, 2nd place Best in Show

I'm glad you get such enjoyment from this style. The half rye, half pils version sounds really good.

podz said:

The Finnish bread yeast is fresh, not dry. It's sold in every food store, even the small ones. It's in the cold cabinets, often right next to the milk. It's pretty small and only costs about 20 cents for a package.

It looks like this:

Easiest way to get some to the North American homebrewing crowd is for someone on a business trip to Finland to pick up a pack and bring it back, start to culture it and share it with others. It probably wouldn't make it past customs in the mail since it's fresh and not dry, but in personal luggage I doubt that it would be an issue.

By the way, "sahti" is prounced with a non-silent H (it's made by forcing your exhale to produce a sound against the top back of your upper palate). This sound doesn't belong to the native english speaker's tongue. And in finnish, the first syllable always receives the stress.

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We have yeast cakes like that in the US. But they are becoming less common anymore, since three 7-gram sachets of dry yeast (21 grams or 3/4 ounce total) can be sold for $2.50 and up. That yields a much higher profit for the retailer and manufacturer, than selling the much larger fresh yeast cakes for less (used to be $1 for 2 ounces). Yeast cakes don't stay fresh as long, they tend to dry out and darken, while dry yeast can last over 2 years in the fridge. That's another incentive for retailers to discontinue the cakes.

I used to buy fresh yeast from the bakeries. I just ask for it. I paid $1 for a 4-6 ounce slice, and I think they felt bad charging me *that* much. Of course I bought their bread too.

Now I don't have any bakeries nearby, so I buy dry bread yeast @ $4.50 for two 1-pound bricks, at Sam's Club, a large "warehouse" type store. Lasts for years in the freezer. Just keep it dry.

I never brewed beer with it, though.

I believe the Finnish bread yeast is supposed to add something special, from what I've read about traditional recipes.

Reno_eNVy said:

I'm glad you get such enjoyment from this style. The half rye, half pils version sounds really good.

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Reno_eNVy said:

I believe the Finnish bread yeast is supposed to add something special, from what I've read about traditional recipes.

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I think it's supposed to add a bit of flavors, which is why I chose Weihenstephan Weizen for this batch. It really does add a lot to the final flavor profile.

I will be heading to Finland next week for 3.5 weeks to visit family and will be getting some Sahti when I am there after reading about it. Not sure where to find juniper in Texas or if it native around here, but will consider this later. May grab some of the yeast to throw in my suitcase on the way back.

rideincircles said:

I will be heading to Finland next week for 3.5 weeks to visit family and will be getting some Sahti when I am there after reading about it. Not sure where to find juniper in Texas or if it native around here, but will consider this later. May grab some of the yeast to throw in my suitcase on the way back.

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Staying in or near Helsinki?

podz said:

Staying in or near Helsinki?

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I will be staying in Helsinki at first, then traveling to Toivakka to my aunt and uncles cabin, then heading to ilosaarirock festival in Joensuu for the weekend to catch Portishead, Alice and Chains and Trentemoller, then off to Kuoppio to a summer cabin another uncle rented, I think then to Rovaniemi in the Arctic Circle next and possibly oulu and Turku after that then back to Helsinki. Definitely will be all over, but will be there from July 5th-29th. My mom lives in Helsinki and I have a dozen aunts and uncles who live all over Finland. Trying to see as much as possible, but I have only been there twice and my mom moved back in 2008. Last I went was in 2008 and I really liked Olvi back then and newcastle was my favorite beer at the time. My tastes have definitely changed since then. Going to see whats available and just went thru the beer list at Alko. My mom lives right by Itakeskus.

rideincircles said:

My mom lives right by Itakeskus.

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That's about 15-20 minutes drive from where I live (I'm pretty close to the airport).

By the way, you can buy Sahti in Alko, too.

Might want to bring a warm jacket, hat and a pair of gloves. This has been the coldest summer in more than 50 years and not much sun either, lots of rain. Average daytime temperatures have been about 55 F, with nights even 40 F. I've never seen anything like this before. It has been raining ice balls here in my back yard more than once in the past few weeks. They are saying that it might warm up finally, but I wouldn't place my bets on it.

I usually go for at least two months without wearing socks at all, just sandals. This summer, I've only been able to wear sandals for a few days.

Question for Reno envy - do you also own the boutique store by the same name in downtown Reno?

Next time I head up that way I will have to grab some juniper branches to try this recipe. Sounds good!

Nah, not affiliated with the company.

If you come in to find some I recommend Verdi (just between Reno and the border) or Hidden Valley (far East side of the Truckee Meadows.)

rideincircles said:

I will be heading to Finland next week for 3.5 weeks to visit family and will be getting some Sahti when I am there after reading about it. Not sure where to find juniper in Texas or if it native around here, but will consider this later. May grab some of the yeast to throw in my suitcase on the way back.

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Bottle trade? I'm sure there's something west coast you'd like to get your hands on.

Michael Jackson's notes on sahti making and drinking:

http://www.beerhunter.com/documents/19133-000030.html

http://www.beerhunter.com/documents/19133-000861.html

Anyway, bottled sahti can, by law, only be sold for carry-out in Alko because it's over 4.7% ABV. They keep it on hand at Alko stores in very, very small quantities inside of a special refrigerator (not even every Alko carries it). The reason being because it's unpasteurised, live beer and can only be kept fresh for a few weeks even inside those perfect conditions.

A bottle of sahti would not survive more than a day outside of a refrigerator.

podz said:

Anyway, bottled sahti can, by law, only be sold for carry-out in Alko because it's over 4.7% ABV. They keep it on hand at Alko stores in very, very small quantities inside of a special refrigerator (not even every Alko carries it). The reason being because it's unpasteurised, live beer and can only be kept fresh for a few weeks even inside those perfect conditions.

A bottle of sahti would not survive more than a day outside of a refrigerator.

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I assume this is due to the lack of hops, yes? I only ask because the west coast US has many many many beers that are alive and are actually meant to be cellared for a decent amount of time.

I will probably stop by the Arcadia Alko store to get some when I get back from my trip to Toivakka, Ilosaarirock, Kuopio, Lappland and Oulu in 2 weeks. The Alko nearby did not have any. There are a couple of okay beers at the city market nearby, but Karhu, Lapin Kulta, Koff and Olvi are pretty much like drinking water to me now. Mufloni Saison is the best beer so far.

So far my trip has mostly been hanging out with my mom around the Itakeskus area. The bars were dead nearby when I went out last night and I just came back to her place. I will have to spend more time downtown when I get back. No one my age that I know to hang out with around here.

rideincircles said:

The Alko nearby did not have any. There are a couple of okay beers at the city market nearby, but Karhu, Lapin Kulta, Koff and Olvi are pretty much like drinking water to me now.

...

I will have to spend more time downtown when I get back. No one my age that I know to hang out with around here.

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If you want good Finnish beer from Citymarket, try "Karhu Tuplahumala" and "Keisari Münchener". Tuplahumala is a double-hopped lager. Keisari Münchener is a long aged brown lager.






I don't know your age, but it's probably half mine. Anyway, if you want to stop by for a beer and grill drop me a PM.

Just checking the internet for the first time in over a week or so. So far Keisari in general has been my favorite Finnish beers, I was buying that for Ilosaari rock most of the time for the campsite. I tried most of them and have been drinking the American Pale mostly. I tried all the basic Finnish beers already and a few good beers from Alko. Still haven't had any Sahti yet though. Right now I am in Rovaniemi and have already been to Toivakka, Joensuu for ilosaarirock festival, vehmersalmi near Kuopio and now to Rovaniemi. I am hoping to go to Norway with my cousin while we are here. Should be back in Helsinki in a week or so, just seeing as much of Finland as possible.

What is the best place for brewing equipment in Finland?

rideincircles said:

What is the best place for brewing equipment in Finland?

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What are you looking for exactly? I buy most of my stuff from this place in Vantaa. I think they are back from summer holidays on Monday.

http://www.kotiviini.fi

HELSINGIN SEUTU: VIINIMAAILMA, Kauppakeskus Myyrmanni, katutaso Paalutorin puolella, puh. 09-241 0655

You should drink a bottle of sahti before you leave. You'll never get this stuff in the US, at least not fresh.

Anyway, nice that we finally got some warm weather while you are here.

I ended up finding out about the Suuren Ouluet microbrewery festival downtown and got to try some Sahti there. I was thinking of bringing some home, but bring ing 7 bottles back was my limit and the bottles of it were big for my suitcase. I didn't mind it and liked it at first, but it was hard to finish when I had very little room left. I had a glass and my mom had one from Lammin. I think I tried almost 50 beers in Finland though in 25 days. It was a great trip.

Making the Estonian home brew which is almost identical to Sahti I believe. It's not called Sahti here, just home brew.

http://taidus.koka.ee/kaisin-vaatamas-kuidas-erki-olut-tegi/

So, I'm very interested to brew this, but can you provide me with some more quantitative information on the "Dough-in" and sparge with juniper liquor processes.
How much to use, alittle more fool-proof, detailed explanation of the process, etc. also, I assumed by juniper liquor, you mean Gin?

Thanks for helping a newbie to the world of the Sahti process out alittle!


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zhubbell said:

So, I'm very interested to brew this, but can you provide me with some more quantitative information on the "Dough-in" and sparge with juniper liquor processes.
How much to use, alittle more fool-proof, detailed explanation of the process, etc. also, I assumed by juniper liquor, you mean Gin?

Thanks for helping a newbie to the world of the Sahti process out alittle!


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Thanks for your interest.

First of all, definitely not gin! "Liquor" is a term in the brewing world meaning the water used for the actual product that becomes beer. "Water" is what you use to clean everything. It's colloquial, sorry for the confusion.

I can't access all of my information right now as I'm out of town for work. But this recipe was written up for more experienced brewers wanting to try something new and unusual. When I get a chance I'll improve the original post. For now, look up brewing software like BeerSmith. It will allow you to input recipes and tell you what quantities needed for dough-in (basically mixing the grain into the mash liquor) and other handy data.

Reno_eNVy said:

Thanks for your interest.

First of all, definitely not gin! "Liquor" is a term in the brewing world meaning the water used for the actual product that becomes beer. "Water" is what you use to clean everything. It's colloquial, sorry for the confusion.

I can't access all of my information right now as I'm out of town for work. But this recipe was written up for more experienced brewers wanting to try something new and unusual. When I get a chance I'll improve the original post. For now, look up brewing software like BeerSmith. It will allow you to input recipes and tell you what quantities needed for dough-in (basically mixing the grain into the mash liquor) and other handy data.

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Thanks man - after reading the article in brew you own a couple months ago on Sahti, I have a much better grasp on your description, the wording of the original post kinda through me. I figured out the juniper liquor terminology pretty quick, and the Dough-in threw me, because I generally call it mashing in, which may or may not be correct, haha.

I'm sure I'll have more questions and advice requests as I hone the recipe alittle further, but I feel confident subsequent questions will be better informed.
I've brewed a couple hundred gallons at this point, but sometimes the various terminologies and shorthands get me, because I have been largely self taught, and from more of a chemistry perspective than a current/brewer community perspective.


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If you want to see how a Finnish guy is mahing sahti in his kitchen:

http://www.kotikokki.net/reseptit/nayta/570863/Juhannus Sahti (45l, n. 9% abv)/

Thank you for this awesome recipe. I would also like to add this little piece of information: the juniper used in Finland is the Common Juniper (Juniperus communis). It used to be the only one readily available in Finland in the olden days. It is also common in the northern parts of USA and Canada. You can see pictures in this Wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juniperus_communis

It is different from the one in your pictures. I don't mean to say that it would be any better (the one you used might be better),
it's just the traditional species.

I can safely say the juniper that grows locally to me (SE Michigan) is NOT communis; I've gotten some in Northern Michigan (sandy soil; close to the lakes), but didn't have enough when I made 10 gallons of juniper beer. I harvested locally, but I know it's not the right kind. I almost wonder if the local juniper is closer to a cedar than a juniper (it's not the commonly called red cedar; too prickly for that).
Now to figure out what I used so I can name that which I won't use again.

(This thread was an influence for me on making that beer; I'm not quite up to sahti level yet, at least not for a big batch, but I *can* do a juniper beer.)

I think that in order to make sahti, one first should be able to pronounce sahti. The H is not silent. Try it in google translate, it is pronounced correctly:

https://translate.google.com/#en/fi/sahti

podz said:

If you want to see how a Finnish guy is mahing sahti in his kitchen:

http://www.kotikokki.net/reseptit/nayta/570863/Juhannus Sahti (45l, n. 9% abv)/

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I had a hard time reading that.

podz said:

I think that in order to make sahti, one first should be able to pronounce sahti. The H is not silent. Try it in google translate, it is pronounced correctly:

https://translate.google.com/#en/fi/sahti

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I'll take your word for it. I thought the "h" was sort of doubled up. I have heard something like "saw-ha-tee" from a few finlanders around these parts. Of course I cannot get my hands on any proper juniper so what's the difference anyway?

lschiavo said:

I had a hard time reading that.



I'll take your word for it. I thought the "h" was sort of doubled up. I have heard something like "saw-ha-tee" from a few finlanders around these parts. Of course I cannot get my hands on any proper juniper so what's the difference anyway?

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I could translate it if somebody is interested.

Finnish H is not silent and it is not "ha", it's just "h". It is pronounced by forcing air through the back of the roof of the mouth while having the lips open. Think about saying the word "tuft" while keeping the lips open and narrowing the opening at the back of the mouth while lightly forcing air outward. It's like a soft sandpaper sound.

hello all, as a new brewer (bout a year) and of Finnish background (Father from Tampere and mother's grandparents from the same area), this definitely sparks my interest. This is a great resource to find people with similar interests as me. I'm quite interested in attempting this.

And as far as pronouncing words....hearing Sauna as (saw-na) drive my family nuts! At least in my neck of the woods. I'm sure many of you can relate . Cheers Kippis

In Finnish we stress first syllable then third etc instead of second like English.

Kharnynb said:

In Finnish we stress first syllable then third etc instead of second like English.

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English is just random, there is no hard-set syllable stressing order.

Nice to see sahti getting some attention. Never done it, but I found this documentary of "three old jolly fellows brewing sahti by traditional means in the heat of the summer of 07". Its in finnish, no texts but you sure can check out the pronounciation of the word there.
( Here: http://youtu.be/JM6drj_J0RU )

If someone is in dire need of the finnish baker's yeast, I could try to send some. Just dont know how since its "fresh" as in a semi-solid block, and im not sure if the dry variety is the same yeast. The factory is about 5km from my place, availability should not be a problem. If you need some info, I can try to look up on finnish webpages and/or books!

Damn, old redneck farmers making sahti!

I guess its as proper you can get ;D
I also found a dry version of the same "original" baker's yeast!

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but this one seems richest in info about Sahti.
Just brewed my first Sahti yesterday, currently bubbling away...

I'm from Lithuania (also in Northern Europe) and we have very similar farmhouse brewing traditions (the Kuurna, hot stone mashing, no boiling, Hiiva yeast, etc.). However we're not really used to using juniper... I did it this way:

1. Doughed-in with hot water (no Juniper branches).
2. Mashed for 90 minutes.
3. Transfered the mash onto mash-tun lined with juniper branches.
4. Heated the sparge water with additional juniper branches and used it to lauter.
5. I know this is not traditional, but I boiled the wort for 30 minutes, because I'm planning to bottle my Sahti. I also added crushed dried juniper berries in the last 3 minutes of the boil.

I'm not used to making Sahti, so I wanted to clarify a few things from fellow Finns or someone with Sahti making experience:

1. Should you be able to taste the juniper immediately in the lautered wort or only after the fermentation (because I couldn't really detect the juniper in the wort..)

2. Should you dough-in with juniper water, or only the sparge water should be heated with juniper branches?

3. How long should you keep/boil the juniper branches in the sparge water before it's ready?

4. Do you think juniper branches/berries might be a good idea in the secondary? (like dry hopping).

Thanks for the answers!


* By the way, I noticed the thread's author used the wrong kind of juniper (looks more like Thuja), the traditional Northern Europe juniper looks like this (needles almost like spruce):