Nitrates/Nitrites in meat, Friend or Foe?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Edcculus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2007
Messages
4,539
Reaction score
57
Location
Morganton, NC
Just wanted to see where people weighed in on nitrites in meat. I started doing research into dry cured meats and sausages a little while ago. All of the sources and recipes tend to include Morton's Quick Cure or one of the Prauge powders, both of which contain sodium nitrite or sodium nitrate.

Since then, I've seen people saying they stay away from nitrates and prefer not to use them in meat. Why? I decided to do a little research. Here is a short summary of the things I have gleaned. I'll post links to the full articles at the bottom of my summary.

If they are so bad, why even use them? Turns out that salt works very well for preventing "baddies" in smaller cuts of meat. When it comes to larger cuts, or sausages, the inside doesn't dry as fast, making it a great place for botulism to grow. Turns out, nitrites stop botulism and other human pathogens from growing in meat.

Saltpeter (aka sodium nitrate) has been used for a very long time in curing meats. Nitrate alone doesn't really do much in meat. Nitrite is what actually does the work. Bacteria in the meat convert sodium nitrate to sodium nitrite. Sodium Nitrite then gets broken down into Nitric Oxide in, and reacts with the myoglobin in the meat to produce the nice reddish color we associate with cured meats. As science advanced, they were actually able to produce Sodium Nitrite. Thus, the step of adding Saltpeter/sodium nitrate to meat was ended. Its actually a little harder to control since it relies on bacteria. Adding nitrite directly skips this step, and lets us use a LOT less to cure the meat properly. In fact, most of the sodium nitrite is broken down into Nitric Oxide, leaving only about 10ppm of Sodium Nitrite in most cured meats.

I know there are a lot of arguments into the health implications of consuming nitrites. If anyone wants to cite any health journal, please feel free. I guess my stance is that what little nitrites I'm getting from cured meats probably won't hurt me, and is probably a lot less than I'm getting from other sources. People have been curing meats with nitrates for a very long time, and we only seem to have a problem with it as of the 1970's.

What do you think? Nitrites are responsible for a lot of the flavors in most of the sausages we eat. They also make fermented dried sausages safe from deadly bacteria and molds. At the same time they can cause cancer and are considered "bad" for you.

Disclosure of my diet - I try to stick to Michael Pollan's "Eat food, not too much, mostly plants". Meat I eat is grass fed. I buy everything as locally as I can, and unprocessed as I can. I don't go crazy for Organic labels, but tend to buy them since they contain less ingredients and tend to be less processed.


Sources:
The science of curing fermented sausages
article on why we should avoid nitrites in meat
article on why it might not really matter
 
I am going to dig up one article I had (after I put the 2 year old to bed and can concentrate!).

I have avoided them the same way you have... because I tend to buy whole ingredients and make things, not purchase processed.

When I cited "angst" in the other thread, I find it like the corn syrup angst... must be bad, because the 11 oclock news said so! So professionally, I will cater to this, as it sells. Which of course perpetuates it if it is a myth.

But I will follow this to see where it goes.
 
Curing meat prior to cold smoking (extended periods under 200 degrees, like a Little Chief or a Bradley) is pretty much a necessity. Or drying. You are creating a perfect environment for botulism, so the cure is for a reason. I figure botulism is pretty bad for your health too.

I don't know if it's an old wive's tale, but the scuttlebutt was the Army used to put saltpeter in recruits food to quell their libido and reduce the incidence of "morning stiffness":D
 
This is a pretty good short article on the subject.

The general argument will be, "even though it may not be really bad for you as previously thought, I'd rather not put those chemicals in my body"

The other side, mine BTW, will be "I enjoy BBQ'd and smoked, cured meats. I don't care if it's bad for me."

Are we really gonna have to have 92 pages of this?
 
I use Morton's Quick Cure in some sausages, and in making jerky that I expect to store. The risk of cancer anymore is getting to be a joke, everything in excess seems to cause cancer, what was the amount of saccharine you needed to ingest to reach those lab rats levels? like 200 cans of diet soda per day? as a mechanic, I use brake clean every day, guess what? CA has determined that it causes cancer, used motor oil? yup same thing, cancer risk from contact with skin, how about brake and clutch dust? cancer risk there too, I would need to do my job in a bio-hazard suit to keep me safe. I just do my job, drink my beer served from a keg with plastic epoxy mixers that may not be food safe, eat my nitrite-laden meats and wait for some jackass doctor to come up with a study stating that: OMG! nitrites in moderate doses reduce the risk of heart disease, or prevent cancer, or could bring about world peace!
Coffee contains thousands of chemical compounds, and like 200 of them are known carcinogens, yet coffee has been shown to help prevent certain types of cancer, odd huh?

:off: While I'm ranting, what the hell was wrong with lead paint? When I grew up there was lead paint everywhere, lead fishing weights that folks would bite to release from the line, and also to clamp it on, lead based solder, lead in the gasoline, etc. You never really heard of kids shooting up schools, or folks going postal at work. Remove all traces of lead and WHAM! nutjobs everywhere! maybe the lead kills off the homicidal impulses in the brain? just a thought...
 
I am very much like Ed- "eat food, not too much, mostly plants". I eat grass fed beef, hunt my own venison, and buy one lamb a year from a neighbor. (The incessant Baaaaahhhhhhing from their field drives me crazy, so I sort of get my revenge! :D)

Anyway, I am NOT on a low fat diet. I eat fat, some meat, no refined carbs, few complex carbs, some fruit, and tons of vegetables.

I will eat fresh sausage that I make on my own, with my venison and/or lamb. I've been reluctant to eat cured products, because of the fear of nitrites. My mother died of breast cancer which she was stricken with at the age of 38. A family history of premenopausal breast cancer, coupled with nitrites cannot be good for me, even if it doesn't actually kill me outright.
For reference: http://www.uihealthcare.com/topics/medicaldepartments/cancercenter/cancertips/processedmeat.html
http://www.naturalnews.com/028824_processed_meat_heart_disease.html
Edit- not that it matters, but I weigh 135 and eat less than 1500 calories a day, more or less. I try to make every calorie "worth it", including beer. By the time you include some beer, and healthy food into my diet, I don't have much room for optionals or foods that don't optimize the nutritients. I am NOT giving up my homebrew, so I am probably down to 1100 calories in food per day. Which I try to find in lean protein and vegetables. Not a whole lot of "play" in my diet. I don't eat junk, sugar, refined carbs, or wheat products EVER.
 
This is a pretty good short article on the subject.

I love this quote about vegetables:
It has been reported that people normally consume more nitrates from their vegetable intake than from the cured meat products they eat. Spinach, beets, radishes, celery, and cabbages are among the vegetables that generally contain very high concentrations of nitrates (J. Food Sci., 52:1632). The nitrate content of vegetables is affected by maturity, soil conditions, fertilizer, variety, etc. It has been estimated that 10 percent of the human exposure to nitrite in the digestive tract comes from cured meats and 90 percent comes from vegetables and other sources.

Are we really gonna have to have 92 pages of this?
no. you can go read whatever else interests you. I find this interesting.
 
It's one of those things like anything else. Some people will worry about nitrates in food, cancer causing compounds in gasoline, etc... but have no problem smoking.

In the end it's up to you. How much risk are you willing to take to enjoy things in life? You could get into a car accident tomorrow and die, would you rather go to heaven with the taste of BBQ in your mouth or not?

What I am saying is figure out what other risky things are going on in your life on a daily basis and then determine if adding some smoked food to your diet is really that big of a deal. For some it might be, for some (like me) probably not.
 
Yoop, I feel for you on the cancer issues, my grandmother died as a result of it in her 60's, and my wife's aunt had a post-breast cancer relapse and has a few months left at best. Overall, my wifes side of the family is riddled with breast cancer deaths, Lisa works for a cancer center, and has realized that genetics play a HUGE roll in cancer cases, and that being proactive is the best course of action, she gets screened every year since age 30. I feel that diet is super important, and I grow most of my own produce as well, but there is a point where it just gets ridiculous, all of these studies, and the fact that almost everything is known to cause cancer in the state of California makes me think that the state of CA is the root cause of cancer, not the items themselves.
 
Yoop, I feel for you on the cancer issues, my grandmother died as a result of it in her 60's, and my wife's aunt had a post-breast cancer relapse and has a few months left at best. Overall, my wifes side of the family is riddled with breast cancer deaths, Lisa works for a cancer center, and has realized that genetics play a HUGE roll in cancer cases, and that being proactive is the best course of action, she gets screened every year since age 30. I feel that diet is super important, and I grow most of my own produce as well, but there is a point where it just gets ridiculous, all of these studies, and the fact that almost everything is known to cause cancer in the state of California makes me think that the state of CA is the root cause of cancer, not the items themselves.

Good point! I agree, for the most part.

As this point in my life, though, I realize that we are bombarded everyday with things beyond our control. Radiowaves, preservatives, GMO food, antiobiotics in grocery store chicken, "high fructose corn syrup" in everything processed, etc.

When I make sausge I CAN control the ingredients and not using nitrates, even though it makes tasty sausage, is something I can do. I also do not eat any processed meat- I haven't had a bologna sandwich in at least 30 years. I'm certainly not a vegan, and I can venison. I see canning as a good alternative to curing. Preserving food interests me- I'm just not sure I can let go of my fear of unnecessary additives like nitrites. I know that it's tasty, and it's a small part of any diet. I have to weigh the benefits (a good tasting sausage) against the risks, and I can't see a reason to use nitrites at this point if an alternative is possible. And from what I can see, refrigeration and freezer is possible for the preservative part.
 
I buy it right off mortonsalt.com, I used to get curing salts from our butcher in WI, but since moving out to AZ I just order direct from the manufacturer. I buy the "tender quick" curing salt.
 
I buy it right off mortonsalt.com, I used to get curing salts from our butcher in WI, but since moving out to AZ I just order direct from the manufacturer. I buy the "tender quick" curing salt.

Thanks. Back when I used to hunt in upstate NY this stuff was at every corner store. Not so much in NJ.
 
I buy it right off mortonsalt.com, I used to get curing salts from our butcher in WI, but since moving out to AZ I just order direct from the manufacturer. I buy the "tender quick" curing salt.

Now I remember why I haven't mail ordered this stuff. $5.00 for 2 lb of salt and $10 for shipping.
 
Hey, I didn't say I won't read the 92 pages. I was just joking about the fact that It'll probably get to that.

Moose

That is the truly sad commentary on the two of us. :mug:

So yoop, what is wrong with high fructose corn syrup? The ad I saw on TV said that it was the same as cane sugar. That must be tru, right? :D
 
That is the truly sad commentary on the two of us. :mug:

So yoop, what is wrong with high fructose corn syrup? The ad I saw on TV said that it was the same as cane sugar. That must be tru, right? :D

ha, thats a debate for another forum!:D
 
Good point! I agree, for the most part.

As this point in my life, though, I realize that we are bombarded everyday with things beyond our control. Radiowaves, preservatives, GMO food, antiobiotics in grocery store chicken, "high fructose corn syrup" in everything processed, etc.

When I make sausge I CAN control the ingredients and not using nitrates, even though it makes tasty sausage, is something I can do. I also do not eat any processed meat- I haven't had a bologna sandwich in at least 30 years. I'm certainly not a vegan, and I can venison. I see canning as a good alternative to curing. Preserving food interests me- I'm just not sure I can let go of my fear of unnecessary additives like nitrites. I know that it's tasty, and it's a small part of any diet. I have to weigh the benefits (a good tasting sausage) against the risks, and I can't see a reason to use nitrites at this point if an alternative is possible. And from what I can see, refrigeration and freezer is possible for the preservative part.

Ok, so maybe I'm confused or maybe a bit thick or a bit of both, dunno:D

I made Chef's recipe for pepperoni last evening. It's in my fridge at the moment. The recipe contained no nitrates. Have I elevated my risk of botulism by not including nitrates as part of the recipe? Just a bit confused after reading Ed's post.

Sorry, Complete noob here. This is my first venture into sausage making. I used the search tool, honest injun:D
 
Ok, so maybe I'm confused or maybe a bit thick or a bit of both, dunno:D

I made Chef's recipe for pepperoni last evening. It's in my fridge at the moment. The recipe contained no nitrates. Have I elevated my risk of botulism by not including nitrates as part of the recipe? Just a bit confused after reading Ed's post.

Sorry, Complete noob here. This is my first venture into sausage making. I used the search tool, honest injun:D

Not at all. The key avoiding botulism is keeping the meat very cold for all processing prior to cooking, and then cooking at above 170*F. Since Chefmikes recipe cooks at 200*F, you should be just fine. Of course the same caveats apply here as in brewing - use proper sanitation and temperature control.

Meat should be partially frozen when grinding to avoid the heat of the grinder causing spoilage, then depending on batch size and how you will be mixing, mix in some crushed ice or keep it on ice. For a small, quickly mixed recipe like Chefmike's I wouldn't worry about the ice.

If you're smoking,cooking,or curing below 170*F, then you'll need to add nitrite,nitrate or other curing agents.

Moose
 
I don't get it if you go to a fancy steakhouse they dry age or wet age their meat for like a month or more with no sodium nitrite/nitrate that I am aware of. No botulism.
 
Dry aging is still done in a sanitary temperature controlled environment, below 36*F. They only age whole sections or roasts with a layer of fat left on for some added protection, not individual steaks. Aging is typically 10-21 days. After 21 days they must freeze the meat if they're going to keep it.

Moose
 
Ok, so maybe I'm confused or maybe a bit thick or a bit of both, dunno:D

I made Chef's recipe for pepperoni last evening. It's in my fridge at the moment. The recipe contained no nitrates. Have I elevated my risk of botulism by not including nitrates as part of the recipe? Just a bit confused after reading Ed's post.

Sorry, Complete noob here. This is my first venture into sausage making. I used the search tool, honest injun:D

Sorry, Im referring to traditionally fermented meats and sausages. Here is a breakdown of different sausages by production method. There are a lot of cooked sausage types. Cooked sausages are stuffed, then cooked, either by poaching, baking or smoking. Fermented sausages are stuffed and not cooked. They rely on benefecial bacteria (usually added in a culture) to change the meat chemistry so nothing bad can grow on or in it. Salt and nitrites are almost unavoidable in these types of sausage, unless another production method is used. I'm still new to this, but in my mind, making say a cooked salami would be more a salami-like sausage than a true salami.

Its going well so far. The real point of this thread was to discuss the uses of nitrites in different cured meats. Why they are used, what types don't necessarily need it, and peoples concerns about using them. I felt like there was a lot of mystery and misinformation around nitrites in cured meats. Some people avoid them for a very good reason. Yoop for example has made an informed decision given her family history and possible health issues with nitrites. Others may just be avoiding them because the media says they are bad. Others just don't care.
 
Ok, so maybe I'm confused or maybe a bit thick or a bit of both, dunno:D

I made Chef's recipe for pepperoni last evening. It's in my fridge at the moment. The recipe contained no nitrates. Have I elevated my risk of botulism by not including nitrates as part of the recipe? Just a bit confused after reading Ed's post.

Sorry, Complete noob here. This is my first venture into sausage making. I used the search tool, honest injun:D

That's why I'm going to try this recipe! It's not a dry cured sausage, so you don't have to use nitrates. You do have to eat it quickly, or freeze, as it isn't preserved.

As Ed said, I've made a choice to not consume nitrates, at least not knowingly. We don't get nitrates in our vegetables, as we don't use nitrogen based fertilizers, and we grow the vast majority of our vegetables.

I was talking to Bob tonight about my diet, which probably isn't ideal according to the AMA! I eat a low carb diet, with lots of vegetables. My big indulgence is unlimited beer! I drink as much beer as I want, whenever I want. I don't know how much- maybe an average of 3 glasses a day, more or less.

I don't mind skimping a bit on food calories, as long as I'm getting enough nutrients, and I don't mind giving up bread and potatoes and pasta. But I MUST have my beer in return.

It's all about choices- and I love the idea of making some sausages that will mimic the smoked/cured stuff without the additives I choose to not use.
 
I recommend 10lb batches of this stuff... it will be gone quick (reminds me of something else we make)

Botulism needs moisture and warm temps, so not an issue with cold hunks of dry meat (or beef in general. Now that foil wrapped baked tater, different story if they abuse it). And the cut is then subjected to high heat. And it can be aged longer than 21 days. Looks awful. Tastes amazing!

This recipe is for a long cook. Internal temp kills everything that matters (if it lives, call NASA).

You guys are in for a treat with this. You will love it. Honest injun. :)
 
Not at all. The key avoiding botulism is keeping the meat very cold for all processing prior to cooking, and then cooking at above 170*F. Since Chefmikes recipe cooks at 200*F, you should be just fine. Of course the same caveats apply here as in brewing - use proper sanitation and temperature control.

Meat should be partially frozen when grinding to avoid the heat of the grinder causing spoilage, then depending on batch size and how you will be mixing, mix in some crushed ice or keep it on ice. For a small, quickly mixed recipe like Chefmike's I wouldn't worry about the ice.

If you're smoking,cooking,or curing below 170*F, then you'll need to add nitrite,nitrate or other curing agents.

Moose

That is completely true but one thing that needs to be added is that with this recipe it needs to be kept refrigerated after cooking and eaten or frozen quickly. Treat it pretty much the same way you would leftovers.

I don't get it if you go to a fancy steakhouse they dry age or wet age their meat for like a month or more with no sodium nitrite/nitrate that I am aware of. No botulism.

That is completely different.
 
Dry aging is still done in a sanitary temperature controlled environment, below 36*F. They only age whole sections or roasts with a layer of fat left on for some added protection, not individual steaks. Aging is typically 10-21 days. After 21 days they must freeze the meat if they're going to keep it.

Moose

I dry age my ribeye, sirloin, and NY strip subprimals for 28 to 35 days, generally. I use the drybagsteak bags.
 
Here's a good source of information about nitrites and nitrates on the Wedliny Domowe site. Anyone interested in making sausages (especially) and curing and smoking meats in general should find the site very useful.
 
Back
Top