Kneading Bread

I've been making bread for a while, it always comes out good but Its not really fluffy like I like it. I can knead it for 20 - 30 minutes and its never gets smooth and elastic. Whats the deal? Anyone want to tell me how you do it? I know your out there!

Unless you have a heavy duty mixer you are not going to get that smooth elastic dough. It is a reaction of the glutens in the wheat becoming more complex carb. chains due to the friction and heat. I myself(been a baker for 20+ years) prefer old world style bread with coarse texture and paper thin super crisp crust

Would you say a bread machine would solve my problems?

I use bread flour, which has higher gluten content than regular flour, but even so, I only knead by hand for 10 minutes. My bread comes out very good, but I also am not getting exactly what I want, so I'll be interested in hearing any other responses to your question. In my case, the bread doesn't have quite the soft elasticity and strength that I want for sandwich bread. It makes great toast, but on a sandwich with any bulky fillings it tends to break up.

I don't use a mixer. I mix the dry ingredients including instant dry yeast thoroughly, but I hold back the salt. I use instant dry yeast and I don't bother to proof it, as I've never had a problem. Then I add the wet ingredients, which in my case is just water and very soft, but not melted butter. I mix that thoroughly by hand, then cover with a cloth and let sit 20 minutes for all the liquid to be absorbed and for autolysis of the yeast to occur. Then I add the salt, mix a bit more, and turn it out on a floured board and knead for 10 minutes, adding as little flour as I can manage. It's a fairly wet and sticky dough, but I've gotten good at handling it with lots of practice.

I put into a oiled bowl, let rise to double, punch down and turn out on the board. I treat it very carefully at this stage. I divide it with a spatula, weigh each half and adjust to make them equal, then I very carefully form a smooth loaf and put it in the oiled bread pan. Any density differences in the loaf will materialize in the baked loaf as heavier or lighter areas of density, holes, texture differences, fallen areas, etc. I've found that shaping the loaf is very important. I let rise again, then bake at 375 to start, then drop my temp to 350 after 10 minutes. It takes about 35 to 40 minutes total baking time.

Ah, I see niquejim is speaking from professional experience. That's good news that we have a professional baker on the board. I'll take any advice from a pro!

I'll try using a mixer next time. Probably tonight, in fact. Best to use a dough hook?

I like the hearty old-world style coarse-textured breads too, and I have no trouble making those, although there is more work involved. But I also want to make good white sandwich bread.

billtzk said:

Ah, I see niquejim is speaking from professional experience. That's good news that we have a professional baker on the board. I'll take any advice from a pro!

I'll try using a mixer next time. Probably tonight, in fact. Best to use a dough hook?

I like the hearty old-world style coarse-textured breads too, and I have no trouble making those, although there is more work involved. But I also want to make good white sandwich bread.

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Dough hook------Yes
Mix until you can take a small piece and stretch it paper thin without tearing.

And old world is easier just more time consuming,,,,like good beer

Remember bread starts with
Flour + salt + water + yeast
and just those 4 make great bread...

everything else makes it softer and sweeter, your choice.

I would rather have a slice of my White chocolate candied pineapple bread than pie or cake for dessert. And a sandwich made with roasted garlic and rosemary bread beats white bread anytime

Read, mark, and inwardly digest The Breadmaker's Apprentice by Peter Reinhart. That book made a significant difference in the quality of the bread that I make.

Im not an expert, in fact most of my experience comes from making pizza dough. but you should knead the dough to the firmness and elasticness that you want the final bread to be at, the only other thing I can think of is punching down the dough after it rises and kneading it again. the more times you re-knead it after letting it rise the finer the co2 bubbles from the yeast in the final bread.

Try this No Knead bread recipe from Sullivan Street Bakery. It requires the use of a big cast iron covered pot or a dutch oven to duplicate the effect from a commercial steam oven, but it comes out absolutely fantastic!!!

Thats a great video, I'm going to have to try that recipe soon. After watching that, I may be using too much flour. My bread never kneads well because it is tough and dry, maybe being the reason my bread never get elastic and smooth. Just watching someone make bread makes me hungry for some!! The thing I like most about bread making is being able to put anything into it I like. I work with Jalapenos, cheese, oregano, and garlic alot.. MMMMM! Mixing and matching ingredients its great. Thanks for the info, anyone else have anything to add?

Before

After

These came out really good; probably my favorite to date. Kneading more than usual helped.

Yeah the one thing that is key is moisture content, which is going to be a function of how much is in the flour to begin with. That's the reason why you often see recipes with a range of flour amounts. And the dough should be sticky, not so that it is too wet, but it should stick to your hands a bit. If it doesn't it is too dry. If you opt to use a mixer, keep it on the slowest setting (and make sure you have a heavy duty mixer or you'll burn your motor out eventually) so that the dough isn't getting pummeled. Otherwise it won't ever form nice long strands of Gluten. Just remember the dough should be elastic enough so that when you pull it, it will go back into place. The finger poke test works well too, ball the dough and just poke it and it should come back into shape.

Smooth is relative, but it will start to take on a 'shine' when it is ready. You'll know it when you see it. Also, you have to have the right flour. Look for bread flour, there is a difference in protein content and such. A lot of it doing with it being Hard Spring or Hard Winter Wheat which have the higher levels of protein necessary. I rarely add fats to my doughs. As niquejim mentioned: water, flour, salt and yeast. And the best quality you can find/afford. Fats will degrade your dough's ability to form Glutenous strands. It will make a softer bread, and can lead to complications in the rise if you use too much. You'll also never be able to achieve a thick, chewy crust.

May not be related, but I made the best biscuits saturday. Instead of kneading it, I blended it in a food processor. I took lumps directly out and put them on the cookie sheet instead of kneading or rolling.

They were extremely light and fluffy.

cheezydemon said:

May not be related, but I made the best biscuits saturday. Instead of kneading it, I blended it in a food processor. I took lumps directly out and put them on the cookie sheet instead of kneading or rolling.

They were extremely light and fluffy.

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It is related, you get the light and fluffy from not working the dough, so a few quick pulses in the food processor works wonders. The dough also has a high fat content which helps flakiness. Most people make rock hard biscuits because they work too hard at it. For rolled biscuit dough, you just want to combine the ingredients and never really knead it.

Aahhh, bread. My last big obsession before beer came along...

As Zoe said, moisture content is important. Most folks are going to want to make their dough too dry and stiff, and will never get that nice satiny, baby's-bottom texture they're looking for.

Some doughs are so slack they're almost batter-like. Ciabatta, pugliese, pain l'ancienne. That's what gives them those big open holes and chewy texture. Dry doughs will have much smaller holes and more of a sandwich-bread texture.

Here's a pugliese dough I made a while back after some machine "kneading". Note the lovely gluten strands coming off the hook.





Here's a much drier sandwich bread for comparison:



And a sourdough that's somewhere in between:



So try a wetter dough and see how you like it. For a rustic dough I usually machine knead for 5-7 minutes then hand knead until it looks and feels good, another 3-5 minutes.

Someone suggested stretching out the dough to check if it's ready. This is the "windowpane test" and the same method I use. I break off a marble-sized piece of dough, flour it and try to stretch it into a sheet until I can see through it. If it tears apart before forming a sheet, I've got more kneading to do. Very easy, very reliable.

elkdog said:

Read, mark, and inwardly digest The Breadmaker's Apprentice by Peter Reinhart.

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My bible. Get it. You won't be disappointed.

Don't forget to give us pictures to drool over! You can see more of mine here.

-Joe

zoebisch01 said:

It is related, you get the light and fluffy from not working the dough, so a few quick pulses in the food processor works wonders. The dough also has a high fat content which helps flakiness. Most people make rock hard biscuits because they work too hard at it. For rolled biscuit dough, you just want to combine the ingredients and never really knead it.

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Exactly. Kneading creates gluten. Gluten = chewy. Chewy = hockey puck biscuits

Using softer flour helps, too. E.g. I find King Arthur's all-purpose flour too hard for biscuits and cookies. Too much protein.

-Joe

Yes I use the High protein bread flour, I use to just use all purpose until I tried the high protein flour.

When I make biscuits I use a sifter to get the flour nice and fluffy before I mix it up.

Best textured bread I ever baked included an overnight rest in the fridge after the first rise.

944play said:

Best textured bread I ever baked included an overnight rest in the fridge after the first rise.

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Ahhh retarding dough... I always retard my sourdough dough overnight before i bake. It really adds to the flavor. SD is so yummy.

There are a few really good sandwich bread recipes out there that are pretty easy to follow.

How to knead by hand:

1. Place dough on a lightly floured surface and flatten slightly.
2. Using the heels of your hands, push down firmly on the dough, pushing it away from you.
3. Turn dough a quarter turn and fold half of it back towards you.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 until dough is satiny and blistered.

Back when I started baking bread I made two major mistakes. The first was that my dough was too dry and the second was that I did not know how to knead it properly. Once I learned to knead I started getting that satin finish on the dough and that made a huge difference. The dough also needs to be just wet enough that you can knead it without it making a big, sticky mess. As you practice more, you will be able to make your dough wetter and still work with it without getting really frustrated.

One more thing: if you have to add more flour to your board to avoid sticking, keep it to the bare minimum necessary.

How funny is this. I spent about 15 min looking on the web for bread making tips and then I decided to look and see what everyone is doing in the food area here and I find more on making bread here than i did using google...........

I am giong to try my hand at making some good bread tonight.

Thanks

Nostalgia - do you have a recipe for your pugliese bread? It looks epic!

Melana said:

Ahhh retarding dough... I always retard my sourdough dough overnight before i bake. It really adds to the flavor.

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I do the same with my sourdough at home and the metric tons of Pizza Dough at the restaurant. We usually retard the dough for 1-2 days then roll out and proof before prep/baking. It makes for a very nice crust.

Well, no brewing today and finding myself looking for a project that dosent envolve cleaning or moving furniture around in the new toy/tv room upstairs.

I stumbled onto this site and am trying out this recipe for my first attempt.
Lesson Three: Time & Temperature | The Fresh Loaf

Will report back later with progress.

I had a grilled cheese sandwich that I made with garlic sourdough bread and was that ever good. I've only made bread using a bread machine but I have had potato rolls made from scratch that just melt in your mouth. My hats off to bakers, that's good stuff.

thataintchicken said:

I do the same with my sourdough at home and the metric tons of Pizza Dough at the restaurant. We usually retard the dough for 1-2 days then roll out and proof before prep/baking. It makes for a very nice crust.

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Which is how I make my pizza dough also. At least a full 24 hours in the fridge, remove 3 to 4 hours before using to let rise further, and then the dough can be shaped.

I also make bread http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a357/nflder/?action=view&current=MyPizzaAug7th2008010.jpg
http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a357/nflder/?action=view&current=MyPizzaAug7th2008009-1.jpg
http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a357/nflder/?action=view&current=MyPizzaAug7th2008017.jpg

Ok, well right out of the oven the wife wanted some of the bread so i did not get a chance to take a pic of it but it looked great.

After cutting into it it seemed to be more dense that what i had wanted and im not sure if that was a result of me kneading to much or what. I kneaded the hell out of it after i mixed it and it was sooooo sticky i wasnt sure if i was getting the job done.

I let it rest for about 75 min or so and then dumped it out and it was a lot easier to work with and tacky but not sticky. I kneaded it for about a min more and then folded it twice and then shaped it and let it rise again for 90 min.

I preheated the oven with a baking stone and an empty pan which i put in a cup of water and dialed the heat down to 400 and let it cook for 36 min. the crust was crispy and almost flaked apart when bit into.

I can not wait to try it again only maybe add something else to it.

I just spent 2 hours looking up how to make bread for thanksgiving then I come back here and see this thread! Don't know why I didn't look here first. I'm baking for the first time ever tonight.

Seriously, check out this place and look for the "lesson" tab at the top of the main page. I read them all and started with lesson three by making a sponge. It turned out great.

The Fresh Loaf | News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

That is a great site. I used a couple of the tips there and the kneading video is priceless. I just punched mine down for the first time and now letting it rest for another 90 minutes. At this rate I should have bread by the 3rd quarter of tonight's game.

the no kneed bread is great but it really depends on the sort of bread you are looking for. Most breads you are still going to need to kneed them make sure you use bread flour it has a lot more gluten as some here have said.

Well I baked 4 loaves over the holiday last week and they all turned out great. I used the basic bread recipe adding some butter to the mix on two loaves and olive oil in the other two. The flavor was more pronounced with the olive oil but I was wondering if anyone here could recommend other ingredients to enhance the flavor of regular bread. I've seen powdered milk, baking soda, etc... and wanted to see if there were any other things I could toss into the dry mix before mixing.

PWalk said:

Well I baked 4 loaves over the holiday last week and they all turned out great. I used the basic bread recipe adding some butter to the mix on two loaves and olive oil in the other two. The flavor was more pronounced with the olive oil but I was wondering if anyone here could recommend other ingredients to enhance the flavor of regular bread. I've seen powdered milk, baking soda, etc... and wanted to see if there were any other things I could toss into the dry mix before mixing.

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Cool deal.

I personally tend to avoid fat additions as it creates a different texture in the bread. Save for holiday breads.

Don't add powdered milk or baking soda. Well you could, but powdered milk isn't all that great imho because it has that odd almost rancid flavor, and baking soda is usually used in things like Irish Soda Bread. It has that chemical taste to it as well which I don't like.

Here are some of the things I have done: Sundried Tomato & fresh Rosemary, Cured Olives & fresh Thyme, Cheese (Gruyere, Comte, etc.), Roasted Garlic and a healthy portion of Whole wheat in the dough and a little Molasses...the list goes on and on.

The idea is to keep your dough consistency slightly tacky when adding ingredients. In other words, don't add too much fat, liquid or dry ingredients that will absorb the moisture or interfere with your crumb. Also don't add uncooked veggies, etc as they exude water during the cooking process, unless of course you can compensate by making the dough slightly drier.

Again I highly recommend Bread Alone by Daniel Leader for anyone who wants to rediscover the nearly lost art of true bread.