Tripled Keg Deposit

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HenryHill

HenryHill

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Michigan Keg Deposit Gets Tripled.

MI just tripled the keg deposit from 10 to 30 bucks.

As usual; why does it take so long?

Story is that SS scrap went from 25 cents to almost 2 bucks a lb. in 2 years.

Seems Bells wanted a $90 deposit.

Sad thing is, there is no breakdown for smaller kegs, so the humble party thrower gets smacked for $30 on a $35 1/4 barrel (or smaller) the same as the 35 pound 1/2 barrel. That's not good for the brewers, either. :(

[ame]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=michigan+keg+deposit&spell=1[/ame]
 
Yeah, that actually made national news since I heard it on CNN last night. I was supprised it took this long to come up here...
 
Henry Hill said:
MI just tripled the keg deposit from 10 to 30 bucks.

As usual; why does it take so long?

Story is that SS scrap went from 25 cents to almost 2 bucks a lb. in 2 years.

Seems Bells wanted a $90 deposit.

Sad thing is, there is no breakdown for smaller kegs, so the humble party thrower gets smacked for $30 on a $35 1/4 barrel (or smaller) the same as the 35 pound 1/2 barrel. That's not good for the brewers, either. :(

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...ct=result&cd=1&q=michigan+keg+deposit&spell=1
Click to expand...


If you can't afford a $35 refundable deposit. You should not be getting a keg anyway. Go out and work instead.

I would guess the majority of "lost" kegs are not stolen. It is a matter of the deposit being so cheap people don't care to return them. Then altimately they are thrown out, then the recycle guys grab them.

heck the beer distributor down from me took 5 or 6 and stacked them up for his sign, I really doubt he paid full price.
 
Well, this proves that at least ONE state regulates keg deposits. Have to remember that the next time we have an argument about the ethics of gray-market keg acquisition.
 
the_bird said:
Well, this proves that at least ONE state regulates keg deposits. Have to remember that the next time we have an argument about the ethics of gray-market keg acquisition.
Click to expand...


Indeed! With a $10 deposit, it's almost like a token amount, clearly with no relation to the cost. But now that there is evidence that legislature is doing their job, you can keep them (and lose the deposit) with less guilt. That will kill the argument of "well, with only a $10 deposit, you can't say it's a fair market price... That is a very old customary price with no basis in modern times."


Argument shot down. It is the modern price. And, per the legislature, it has a correlation to modern price of steel. LOL :)
 
Damn Squirrels said:
Indeed! With a $10 deposit, it's almost like a token amount, clearly with no relation to the cost. But now that there is evidence that legislature is doing their job, you can keep them (and lose the deposit) with less guilt. That will kill the argument of "well, with only a $10 deposit, you can't say it's a fair market price... That is a very old customary price with no basis in modern times."


Argument shot down. It is the modern price. And, per the legislature, it has a correlation to modern price of steel. LOL :)
Click to expand...

No point in arguing; no body is making you return your 10 cent can or bottle if you don't want to return it, just as nobody is making you return the 10 dollar or 30 dollar keg. Modern price of 30 bucks or Friday's price of 10 bucks. Each was set by law, how can not returning the bottle, can or keg be condemned, on those grounds?

And no kegs are not 'lost' Todd, clearly, you miss the point. Either broke students or out of work Michiganders (or beginning HBers) are trucking kegs to (or from) the recyclers (instead of the retail store) for a 200% return on investment. Isn't this typical capitalistic entrepreneurial opportunity? Good Republicans in the making, as it were.

Those that claim to have higher moral ground in condemning a person for not returning his returnables are just Elitest Asz C*nts. :D

Who are they to tell others how to live?
 
I didn't mean to re-start the argument; hell, it bores me to tears at this point. Just wanted to point out that some have argued that these deposits are always set by market forces, and here is one example where that is not the case.
 
It's kinda hard to argue with "Property of Anheuser Busch" when it's embossed on the keg. That's why one should practice due diligence in acquiring an out of service keg for brewing.
 
EdWort said:
It's kinda hard to argue with "Property of Anheuser Busch" when it's embossed on the keg. That's why one should practice due diligence in acquiring an out of service keg for brewing.
Click to expand...

Doesn't stop recyclers from buying the scrap metal so how can this be an enforceable point?

If I engrave my DL number on some piece of equipment then sell it, is it still mine?

Ever 'own' a milk crate?

Sorry, there's just not a lot of concern for companies charging 18-19 bucks for a case of swill OR $3.59 a gallon for gas. Loss is a price of doing business.

Like it or not if there was a way to hold the recyclers responsible for buying stolen property, don't you think BMC would have taken that route by now to try and stop the loophole? Obviously, they can't.

Way to go, Bobby!
 
the_bird said:
Well, this proves that at least ONE state regulates keg deposits. Have to remember that the next time we have an argument about the ethics of gray-market keg acquisition.
Click to expand...

They regulate from the brewery to the distributor; I think distributors can charge whatever they like to end consumers?
 
Henry Hill said:
No point in arguing; no body is making you return your 10 cent can or bottle if you don't want to return it, just as nobody is making you return the 10 dollar or 30 dollar keg. Modern price of 30 bucks or Friday's price of 10 bucks. Each was set by law, how can not returning the bottle, can or keg be condemned, on those grounds?
Click to expand...

Can/non-returnable bottle deposits and keg (or returnable bottle) deposits are two different animals.

You own the can/bottle; the state charges you a deposit as an incentive to get you to recycle it rather than chucking it out the window of your car. The original "owner" of the can (be it BMC, Coke, whoever) isn't getting it back.

You do not own the keg; the owner of the keg charges the distributor a deposit to ensure that they get their property back. Some states (not all) regulate this amount. The distributor then charges you a deposit, in the hopes that you'll bring the keg back and he can recover his deposit. I'm not sure any state regulates this amount...but no distributor is going to charge you less than he paid, and no distributor will charge more than the competition. So the market keeps this amount at the regulated brewery-to-distributor amount.

So keeping the can/bottle cannot be condemned, because its yours. You may break other laws with it (littering, not recycling, etc.) but you're not stealing.

Keeping the keg can be condemned, because it's theft. Not that I'm condemning it (I've had 2 cases of 16 oz returnable bottles "sold" to me by a distributor for nearly 20 years...of course, I haven't taken an angle grinder to them, so I could still return them :D ); just clarifying.
 
I don’t understand. What business does the government have setting deposit prices? Why the hell do they even care?

I got an idea. How about keep the government out of it all together. Then the breweries and distributors can decided what deposits price they feel best. After all it is their property.
 
Bike N Brew said:
They regulate from the brewery to the distributor; I think distributors can charge whatever they like to end consumers?
Click to expand...

The kegs are the property of the brewery; what incentive does the distributor have in raising the deposit, unless the distributor is held liable for kegs that don't make their way back?
 
the_bird said:
The kegs are the property of the brewery; what incentive does the distributor have in raising the deposit, unless the distributor is held liable for kegs that don't make their way back?
Click to expand...

None, really. I mean, if you were the only game in town you might charge $50 to help your cashflow, but in a competitive environment no one wants to be the "guy who charges high deposits".

I was just making a useless point about what's really regulated.

I may swear off this topic from now on :D
 
the_bird said:
The kegs are the property of the brewery; what incentive does the distributor have in raising the deposit, unless the distributor is held liable for kegs that don't make their way back?
Click to expand...

EXACTLY. Why ISN'T the distributor held responsible for the kegs in their possession? Especially when quite obviously retailers are letting kegs go without ANY deposit, i.e., cash going into someone's pocket, yet no empty kegs in store rooms? If the breweries are not following up with the distributors OR retailers, why is Joe HBer gonna care? Does paying scrap price to a recycler qualify as due diligence in acquisition of a keg? IT'S LEGAL.

The onus is on the distributor, and the brewery is free to put whatever conditions on the arrangement they see fit. If they don't want to enforce their arrangement with the distributors, why should anyone else care? What is keeping the law enforcement from recycler raids and arrests? Because there is no proof that the keg wasn't SOLD outright, that's why. Are decommissioned kegs stripped of 'Property of' identities? NO.

Did profits FALL for any brewery this year? I highly doubt it.

I think the end may be near for 1/4 barrels, 'cause it's just easier to buy 4 cases ($9.60 deposit), instead of hauling a keg to and from, and paying deposit on tap pump and keg. Ponies are strictly bought by Humble Party Throwers. A pro rated deposit based on keg size would have made much more sense.

Who among us has NEVER got something free they shouldn't have?
 
Henry Hill said:
EXACTLY. Why ISN'T the distributor held responsible for the kegs in their possession?
Click to expand...

OK, one more, then I'm done, I swear.

The distributors ARE held responsible. They're the ones paying the deposit to the brewery. Keg vanishes, brewery keeps the deposit.
 
The assumptions about the relationship betweeen the brewery and the distributor is completly flawed in most of the analyses I've seen here.

Most states have a three tier distribution. The brewer must sell to a distributor who in turn sells to a retailer. The brewer cannot sell directly to the retailer.

The distribuor enjoys a somewhat proected status. The brewery needs the distributor to gain access to the retailers. The barriers to entry are high, so the distributor's business is rarely challenged.

Of the two entities, guess who eats it when it comes to covering keg loss.

I suspect the legislated amount for kegs is somewhat driven by the industry. Makes the state the bad guy.
Also many of these keg deposit laws are designed to also track who buys beer in an attemp to cut down un underage parties.
That's why a DL is required.
 
olllllo said:
The assumptions about the relationship betweeen the brewery and the distributor is completly flawed in most of the analyses I've seen here.

Most states have a three tier distribution. The brewer must sell to a distributor who in turn sells to a retailer. The brewer cannot sell directly to the retailer.

The distribuor enjoys a somewhat proected status. The brewery needs the distributor to gain access to the retailers. The barriers to entry are high, so the distributor's business is rarely challenged.

Of the two entities, guess who eats it when it comes to covering keg loss.

I suspect the legislated amount for kegs is somewhat driven by the industry. Makes the state the bad guy.
Also many of these keg deposit laws are designed to also track who buys beer in an attemp to cut down un underage parties.
That's why a DL is required.
Click to expand...
Great info olllllo. That sht pisses me off. Why the hell can't a business (brewery) sell to anyone they want. Why does goverment have any say in this matter? They should collect their taxes and get the hell out of the way. I wonder if the AHA and/or the Brewers Association is doing any lobbying in this reguard?
 
fifelee said:
Great info olllllo. That sht pisses me off. Why the hell can't a business (brewery) sell to anyone they want. Why does goverment have any say in this matter? They should collect their taxes and get the hell out of the way. I wonder if the AHA and/or the Brewers Association is doing any lobbying in this reguard?
Click to expand...

The same reason Govt has price supports for farmers and interfers in the free market in a host of different ways. Legalized bribery in the form of what we in this country call "campaign contributions".
 
abracadabra said:
The same reason Govt has price supports for farmers and interfers in the free market in a host of different ways. Legalized bribery in the form of what we in this country call "campaign contributions".
Click to expand...
Now you have hit a topic near and dear to my heart. My old man farms. As a capitalist I do have mixed emotions on farm support. But I would like to mention one think few people know. When you hear a about a $20 billion farm bill, not much actually goes to farmers. Over half of the farm bill is actually food stamps.

Sorry about hijacking this thread.
 
The deposits are only part of this new law....

From what I understand I will also be required to follow the "tag" rules when I have my local brew pub fill MY cornie!

•Introduced by Rep. Mark Meadows (D) on March 11, 2009, to require retailers to attach an identification tag signed by the buyer to kegs of beer when they are sold, and not return the keg deposit unless the tag is still on the keg, subject to a $500 fine for failing to do either. A non-retailer possessing a keg without the tag would be subject to a $500 fine and 93 days in jail.
◦Referred to the House Regulatory Reform Committee on March 11, 2009.
■Reported in the House on April 22, 2009, with the recommendation that the substitute (H-1) be adopted and that the bill then pass.
◦Substitute offered in the House on April 23, 2009, to replace the previous version of the bill with one that revises details and lowers the fine on retailers to $50. This was not adopted in favor of another substitute that also has the lower fine plus other minor changes. The substitute failed by voice vote in the House on April 23, 2009.
◦Substitute offered by Rep. Mark Meadows (D) on April 23, 2009, to replace the previous version of the bill with one that revises details and lowers the fine on retailers to $50. The substitute passed by voice vote in the House on April 23, 2009.
•Passed 61 to 42 in the House on April 23, 2009, to require retailers to attach an identification tag signed by the buyer to kegs of beer when they are sold, and not return the keg deposit unless the tag is still on the keg, subject to a $50 fine for failing to do either. A non-retailer possessing a keg without the tag would be subject to a $500 fine and 93 days in jail.
Click to expand...
 
tszetela said:
From what I understand I will also be required to follow the "tag" rules when I have my local brew pub fill MY cornie!
Click to expand...

Boy, has this 4 year old zombie been waken?

From http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28i3y4vi55id5u1zenooafir45%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectname=mcl-436-2030

#8) As used in this section, "keg" means any brewery-sealed individual container having liquid capacity of 5 gallons or more.

Brewery-sealed seems to eliminate a corny keg fill.
 
Last time I started a thread discussing kegs, Yooper closed it almost instantly. Four years later, this one lives on.....
 
In Denver it is $30 for 1/8th bbl and $50 for 1/4 bbl. When you buy a keg they tell you that you have 30 days to return it in order to get your deposit back. If you do not the keg is yours. You can use it towards another deposit but you will not get your $$$ back.
What if you do not want another keg? I am not sure that the Brewery will take them back.
 
iaefebs said:
Boy, has this 4 year old zombie been waken?

From http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28i3y4vi55id5u1zenooafir45%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectname=mcl-436-2030

#8) As used in this section, "keg" means any brewery-sealed individual container having liquid capacity of 5 gallons or more.

Brewery-sealed seems to eliminate a corny keg fill.
Click to expand...


I think then we need better clarification because both brew pubs I have spoken with are under the impression that they are required to tag cornies.


(And Sorry for necro-post! I was just doing a search because of the conversation I had at the "Filling-Station" and thought this was a current thread!)
 

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