Underpitch the primary beer yeast for flanders?

I am brewing my first sour beer tomorrow a flanders red.

Im using the dregs of 2 bottles of JP(no starter) and wlp002(starter) pitched simultaneously, normal ferment for a month in primary, move to secondary for 1 year plus.

My questions is generally what cell count should I shoot for with my wlp002 pitch?

As opposed to pitching a normal healthy amount, im considering underpitching in order to allow the bugs to do more of the sugar eating/get a stronger foothold.

I figure any off flavors from underpitching will be consumed by the bugs. In the past with proper temp management I have gotten away with underpitching anyways.

Is this a sensible course, or should I just pitch the proper amount of wlp002 for the wort gravity and be done with it?

I wouldn't use a starter.

Pitching a little low or high will make no difference. The sacc is probably going to get going fairly rapidly, and be done with most of the sugars in about a week.

Pitching really low will allow the bugs to build up their populations before the sacc starts creating alcohol.

You could even try pitching just the JP dregs at first, and then pitch the yeast a couple of days later.

I always underpitch when doing a sour. The "clean" yeast's off-flavors from underpitching don't ever make it into the finished product. I've made several sours using whitbread yeast and Hannsen's and Jolly Pumpkin dregs.

Ok, I'm sold Im prolly going to pitch at somewhere between half and 3/4 the recommended pitch rate.

by "under-pitching off-flavors", are y'all talking about increased ester production? esters aren't an off-flavor, and i'm not aware of any other flavors caused by a low pitch rate. seems like a boogeyman to me, but i'm probably misunderstanding something here.

under-pitching does seem to make sense for anything with bugs. a low pitch typically results in a slightly lower attenuation, which means there will be a little more left over for the bugs.

Not really pertinent to the question but just thought I'd mention that I'm not sure that JP dregs alone will get you the proper flavor profile for a Flanders red. Not saying it won't make a tasty sour but I'd probably want to pitch some other bugs (like Roselare or one of the ECY blends) if I were going for a FR.

Esters are innappropriate for this style therefore they are an off flavor in this case.

WilliamWS said:

Not really pertinent to the question but just thought I'd mention that I'm not sure that JP dregs alone will get you the proper flavor profile for a Flanders red. Not saying it won't make a tasty sour but I'd probably want to pitch some other bugs (like Roselare or one of the ECY blends) if I were going for a FR.

Click to expand...

Certainly relevant.

Ive read of people making sours with dregs alone(especially young JP dregs) I'll probably be adding some more dregs along the way too. Im building plenty of extra sugar for them to munch on with a high FG and by getting them going right off the bat. Im also going to be giving them a year or two to multiply and conquer.

I have heard a lot of mixed opinions on roselare but I'll definitely be getting some ECY for future batches.

JP dregs can certainly make a nice sour by themselves but I was just saying that if you're specifically going for a FR flavor profile (as opposed to a nonspecific sour beer which can be every bit as tasty, just different) I'd probably pitch something else in addition.
I've had nearly all of JP's releases in the last 4 yrs and had several homebrews made with dregs and while some have been quite sour, none have really had a flavor profile that says "Flanders Red" to me. But you'll probably end up with a tasty sour beer either way.

WilliamWS said:

JP dregs can certainly make a nice sour by themselves but I was just saying that if you're specifically going for a FR flavor profile (as opposed to a nonspecific sour beer which can be every bit as tasty, just different) I'd probably pitch something else in addition.
I've had nearly all of JP's releases in the last 4 yrs and had several homebrews made with dregs and while some have been quite sour, none have really had a flavor profile that says "Flanders Red" to me. But you'll probably end up with a tasty sour beer either way.

Click to expand...

OH...now I get what you are saying.

I guess I'm more interested in replicating the malt profile for FR than the bug profile.

I have a buddy with a few FR's going that are more appropriately bugged, when he finished one up, Im going to steal some of said bugs.


This is the grist, BTW

3 lbs Pilsner (Weyermann) (1.7 SRM) Grain 1 26.1 %
2 lbs 12.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2 23.9 %
2 lbs 12.0 oz Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 3 23.9 %
1 lbs Caramunich I (Weyermann) (51.0 SRM) Grain 4 8.7 %
1 lbs Wheat - White Malt (Briess) (2.3 SRM) Grain 5 8.7 %
8.0 oz Aromatic Malt (Briess) (20.0 SRM) Grain 6 4.3 %
8.0 oz Special Roast (Briess) (50.0 SRM) Grain 7 4.3 %
0.75 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 90.0 min Hop 8 14.6 IBUs
1.0 pkg English Ale (White Labs #WLP002) [35.49 ml] Yeast 9 -

i was wondering about using special roast in the grist of a Flanders Brown - don't see it in many sour recipes

in fact most of the Flanders red recipes ive seen are all pretty standard pils/veinna/munich malts, wheat, aromatic, special b, caramunich