My efficiency is terrible.

Or my hydrometer sucks... getting some distilled water today to calibrate it, hopefully it's way off. I would greatly appreciate some constructive criticism/troubleshooting.


Here is the recipe

9# 2-row
1# crystal 80
.75# munich

Equipment:

15 gallon brew kettle
10 gallon rubbermaid round cooler w/ SS braided hose
Beersmith


Anyways, I did my first AG recipe about three weeks ago. A few friends (all extract brewers) came over and helped. As it turns out, we ended up getting 60% efficiency. Some temps were missed, some other things didn't go exactly as planned and I attributed the poor efficiency to three All grain virgins being intoxicated.

Fast forward to yesterday. I decided to give it another shot, this time by myself so I didn't have the well intentioned collaboration that I had the previous time. I was brewing an amber, mashed at 1.25 qt/lb and was aiming for 154. Doughed in at 165, waited five minutes and my temp was 152... not a problem as I had two quarts of preheated water on the stove to adjust with. Checked the temp 5 minutes after adjusting and I hit 154 dead on the nuts. After the hour was up, I drained the MLT into a bucket and collected 3 gallons and added it to my kettle. I did two batch sparges of a hair over two gallons each to bring my pre-boil volume to just a little over 7 gallons. I took a sample of the wort and tossed it in the freezer to chill it down to 60. When the test jar was at 60 degrees, I took the SG and got 1.033 (right where I wanted to be pre-boil assuming I was going to get 60%). Disappointed I figured it wasn't the end of the world and resumed my boil. All said and done, I finished my boil with an OG of 1.040 which is WAY under where it should have been even for 60%.

I'm sitting here scratching my head as to what is going wrong. I have done my homework and read every all grain thread I can get my hands on. I have read Bobby M's all grain primers, howtobrew, etc... I tasted the grains after the last sparge and there was no residual sweetness left in them whatsoever. The only thing I can possibly think of is that I'm draining my MLT too fast or my hydrometer is fubar'd. As far as draining fast... I was under the impression that sparging slow was only for fly sparging. Should I open my ball valve while draining just to a little over a trickle? Another thing. I do get my grains crushed at my LHBS, but it appears to me as if it is crushed fine enough. There are no intact hulls and a good amount of flour. I asked the owner of the shop if he felt the crush was fine enough for All Grain and he said that 95% of his all grain brewers have absolutely no issue's with their crush.

Any feedback will be greatly appreciated, 52% efficiency is really starting to frustrate me.

Did you base you final efficiency off the volume that went into the fermenter? Seems obvious, but if you collected more than intended it would account for the drop in "into the fermenter" efficiency.

I batch sparge and noticed a decent (~5%) jump in efficiency when i slowed down my sparging. It's not trickling out, but the ball valve is usually about 1/2 open.

Do you mash out? I think there's some debate on whether or not this helps with batch sparging, but it makes sense to me that it would help and i always do it.

Finally, my biggest (by far) increase in efficiency was buying a barley crusher. Unless you can verify that another customer at your LHBS with a similar setup is getting considerably better efficiency than you, my best guess would be the crush. I went from about the efficiency your reporting (50-60%) to an average around 80% once i got my barley crusher and dialed it in--no other changes. You could ask your LHBS to run your grains through their mill twice and see if that shows any improvement.

Are you sure your thermometers are accurate?

How are you measuing volume? Are you sure what you think is "1 gallon" is actually "1 gallon"

What was the gravity of your 1st runnings? This can help identify if your efficiency problems are during the mash or during the lauter....

The wort tends to stratify in the kettle. Meaning your first runnings don't mix that well with the sparge runnings. That can really throw your readings off.

I usually don't bother checking gravity until the wort has had a good rolling boil going and is well mixed.

I don't mash out, maybe I should start?

I use two thermometers... my main digital reads 32 in ice and 211.5 at boiling.

Unfortunately I don't check the SG of the individual runnings, just everything combined before the boil commences.

I measure volume using my bottling bucket. HOWEVER. I have measured out my own lines on the bucket because those things are notoriously inaccurate. I used a pyrex measuring cup to mark the bucket.

I do base off of what I put in the fermenter, usually its right at 5gallons

As far as the crush goes, it is difficult to tell if that's what causing it (and I really hope it is). I know my LHBS owner would be more than happy to adjust one of his mills to get a finer crush. Seeing that we crush our own grains at the store, running it through mill wouldn't be an issue at all... maybe I'll try that the next go around.

And finally, I stir the living crap out of everything... Including infusion water, sparge water, first runnings w/ 2nd and 3rd runnings in the kettle...

Thanks for the inputs so far guys.

How well do you stir the mash? Are you sure there are not dough balls?

Do you stir before you drain the first runnings?

I stir very very very thoroughly to the point that I'm suprised I haven't ripped that SS braid off of the barb yet. I'm positive there are no dough balls. I have my wife add the grain very slowly while doughing in while I sitr. However, I do not stir prior to draining the first runnings... Maybe I should start doing that.

What was the final volume post boil? I'm thinking you might not have boiled off two gallons.

I read through this a couple times and the first questions that came to mind were 1) good grain crush ? 2) calibrated hydrometer ? 3) calibrated thermometers?

Probably not any one of these things could get you that far off, but a "perfect storm" of everything being a bit off could get you off significantly.

I batch sparge and have been under the impression that flow rate is not that critical, AS LONG as you have everything stirred up really well. I use a mud-stirrer on a drill for everything in my 10 gal round cooler with false bottom. Stir the crap out of it a time or two during mashing and lautering, and I usually stick my numbers right on.

Make sure you mash out, not necessarily to hit the temps, but rather to get everything hot and juicy and the sugars rinse out better.

I'm thinking you have a problem with crush, and/or your measuring equipment.

Finished volume was 5 gallons...

Well I know it is not the hydrometer. 60 degrees in distilled water reads 1.000

I bet you have a mash conversion issue. That is, you are not mashing all the way. If you mash blindly for 45min or even an hour and call it good enough, there is no way to know if you are done. Do an iodine test for conversion at 30 min, 45 min, 1 hour etc. until the test is negative.

It doesn't sound like you are doing anything out of the ordinary otherwise. If your hydro reads 1.000 with tap water that's good. Let the mash go longer, I go 1 hour plus, always.

Other than batch sparging giving *slightly* less efficiency that fly sparging, none of what you're describing sounds that far off.
If you have a decent gram scale, you could calibrate the hydrometer better. I did a hydrometer calibration workshop for my local club a number of years back. The run-of-the-mill hydrometers were frequently off between 1.002 to 1.006. Calibrating to a couple more points, like 1.040 and 1.060 would help a little.
More often than not, the LHBS will set the mill gap slightly looser out of the concern that they would rather have people lose a little efficiency than have a stuck mash. One is way worse than the other.

I've been getting solid results with 90 minute mash times. You might want to try a longer mash for the next brew and see what your results are. I also stir two or three times after getting rid of all the dough balls. I also check the mash temp at those times to make sure I'm still within the temperature range. With Sunday's brewing, I had to heat the mash up a little after getting rid of the dough balls. Since I BiaB, I just carefully turned the fire back on (low enough to not burn the bag) and kept watching it. Once I was within the mash range, I killed the heat. Only had a few degree drop from my mash target temp, to what the wort temp was when I removed the grains.

I had some similar challenges with my first couple batches of all grain. It really does get better, hang in there!

We have similar setups and both use batch sparging.

The single biggest improvement in efficiency I made was with the grain crush. I have two LHBS. The first one "crushed" my grains. I noticed that there seemed to be a lot of intact kernels, but assumed, as many do, that he had my best interests at heart and told me the truth about the grind setting of 70% efficiency. I got 30-40% efficiency. You could have not have tasted any discernable sweetness because the startch was not converted to sugar in the first place.

Then, I decided to keep all of the variables the same, and change up the crush. I went to my other LHBS, who lets me crush my own with his equip. I immediately noticed a difference. There was not a single intact kernel, all of the endosperm was cracked, exposed, much more flour, as well as the whole husks. When I doughed in, I had doughballs for the first time. I hit 75% on the nose.

In summary, if you don't get any dough balls, you crush may be off. I am not sure if this a good measure, but it was one observable difference in my transition to all grain.

If you have 10.75 lbs of grain and mashing at 1.25 qts/lb then your mash volume would be 3.3 gal. How do you end up collecting 3 gal from the MLT? Your grain should absorb more than 0.3 gal. What am I missing here?

Has anyone mentioned pH? And dont sweat it if you dont figure it out just bump up your grain 10- 20%

If you hit your planned pre-boil gravity then you didn't evaporate enough of the wort in your boil. Once you run your wort out of the tun your efficiency is "set." If you're calculating 5 gallon batches and then filling your ferment to 5 gallons you aren't boiling off enough worry because you should be leaving .5 to 1 gallon of break material etc. in the kettle. If you want 5 gallons in the fermentor you should calculate 5.5 gallon batches. If you want 5 gallons in your bottles/keg calculate 6 gallon batches assuming you will leave half a gallon or so in both the kettle and fermentor.

MrFugglz said:

In summary, if you don't get any dough balls, you crush may be off. I am not sure if this a good measure, but it was one observable difference in my transition to all grain.

Click to expand...

Maybe that's it! I'm yet to see these infamous dough balls that everyone talks about! I just thought my stirring skills were awesome and never got them. Is that indicative of a course crush?

sjbeerman said:

If you have 10.75 lbs of grain and mashing at 1.25 qts/lb then your mash volume would be 3.3 gal. How do you end up collecting 3 gal from the MLT? Your grain should absorb more than 0.3 gal. What am I missing here?

Click to expand...

I missed my mash temp by a little bit so I adjusted it with nearly boiling water thus increasing my mash thickness.

dantodd said:

If you hit your planned pre-boil gravity then you didn't evaporate enough of the wort in your boil. Once you run your wort out of the tun your efficiency is "set." If you're calculating 5 gallon batches and then filling your ferment to 5 gallons you aren't boiling off enough worry because you should be leaving .5 to 1 gallon of break material etc. in the kettle. If you want 5 gallons in the fermentor you should calculate 5.5 gallon batches. If you want 5 gallons in your bottles/keg calculate 6 gallon batches assuming you will leave half a gallon or so in both the kettle and fermentor.

Click to expand...

I do this, or I should say I let beersmith do this for me.

So, I guess my next question is... will running it through my LHBS mill twice increase the quality of the crush, or should I ask him to adjust his equipment?

No harm in asking them to adjust the crush, especially if you pay them for the service. May want to state upfront your are struggling with efficiency and would rather risk a stuck sparge, so you aren't calling them out on a horrible crush.

MrFugglz said:

In summary, if you don't get any dough balls, you crush may be off. I am not sure if this a good measure, but it was one observable difference in my transition to all grain.

Click to expand...

I didn't get any dough balls in my last batch and I got 76% efficiency. I don't think whether or not you get dough balls would be an indicator of a poor quality crush.

I mixed the first 5# of base malt into the mash pot (on Sunday), removing dough balls that happened before adding the rest of the grain (mixing as I went)... After the initial set of dough balls, I didn't get any more. I think the real key is stirring as you add the grain. I hit 82% efficiency on that batch. :rockin:

I think that if you have someone there to help you out, either pouring the grain in while you mix, or mixing as you pour, you'll have far less dough balls (if any)...

I'm going to be able to test the mixing as you add grain method on the 26th... I'll post up what we get for an efficiency then... Hope we get a good number, since we're going for our first 10 gallon batch with this brew...

My store owner is very cool and doesn't charge us to crush our own grains with his equipment. I spoke with him when I picked up the ingredients for this last batch that I had efficiency problems with the previous one. He said that most of his all grain brewers don't have an issue with the crust, but some request to be very fine. He said their grain looks almost like mostly flour (don't know if this was an exaggeration). Should I just try and run it through the mill twice before I ask him to adjust one of his mills? I really don't know what setting it should be at and he seems to think it is fine...

Finished volume is 5 gallons, but the total final boil volume is? This includes any absorbed by trub, hops etc. Usually in the range of .5 gallons. Do you final volume math with 5.5 and see where it is.

I do all my 5 gallon recipes with a target of 6 gallons final volume in pot. That's what I use for math. .5 Gallons is wasted to system, etc. 5.5 goes into fermentor, 5 is what is left for consumption. The last .5 is lost to testing, blowover, etc.

I had some math issues until I ironed out my true volumes. Now its dead on nuts accurate for the last few batches.

it's been said before, but pH? what's your water look like?

also, take readings of your 1st/2nd/3rd runnings and take a reading of the kettle once everything's in there. accurately measure pre-boil volume. then take a reading after it's in the fermentor. do you usually top off with water?

I tossed 5.5 in the fermenter... as far as my PH goes, the city water report is essentially useless and doesn't give an exact number. I've been told by all the brewers on my lovely island that it is fine for all grain though.

Gritsak said:

Did you base you final efficiency off the volume that went into the fermenter? Seems obvious, but if you collected more than intended it would account for the drop in "into the fermenter" efficiency.

I batch sparge and noticed a decent (~5%) jump in efficiency when i slowed down my sparging. It's not trickling out, but the ball valve is usually about 1/2 open.

Do you mash out? I think there's some debate on whether or not this helps with batch sparging, but it makes sense to me that it would help and i always do it.

Finally, my biggest (by far) increase in efficiency was buying a barley crusher. Unless you can verify that another customer at your LHBS with a similar setup is getting considerably better efficiency than you, my best guess would be the crush. I went from about the efficiency your reporting (50-60%) to an average around 80% once i got my barley crusher and dialed it in--no other changes. You could ask your LHBS to run your grains through their mill twice and see if that shows any improvement.

Click to expand...

I agree with this. My system is the same as yours except I crush my own grains and probably give about 1/10 of the concern you do to doughing in etc. Also if I'm off by a degree or two I generally don't sweat it. I do hand fly sparge by slowly adding water with a quart container and I drain the mashtun at about 1/4 to less turn on the ball cock. If you are going to continue w/ AG you need to get a mill anyway.

Good luck
Alan

I've been having similar problems; I'm guessing we're going to the same lhbs. I think i have it narrowed down to the fineness of the crush, and am hoping to solve that with my own mill. If that doesn't work, i'll have to think of something else...

I think these are all good points. The crush has to be right, dough in has to be through, you have to do a mash out, the sparge has to be slower then you think. But I think Mikethepool guy hit the biggest part! I had the same issues when I started all grain. I was crushing my grains to damn near to dust, spending 20 minutes mixing the grains, sparging for 30 plus minutes. Still only hitting mid 60s on my efficency..WTF..so I had to look at my water. Got my mash Ph down to 5.2-5.4 range BAMM !! In the high 70s low 80s. I’ll bet your mash Ph is in the 5.8 range and your conversion rate sucks.

Wappcaplett said:

I've been having similar problems; I'm guessing we're going to the same lhbs. I think i have it narrowed down to the fineness of the crush, and am hoping to solve that with my own mill. If that doesn't work, i'll have to think of something else...

Click to expand...

It's the only one on the island it has to be... I'm going to ask Mike to adjust one of his mills next time I buy grain.

LarMoeCur said:

I think these are all good points. The crush has to be right, dough in has to be through, you have to do a mash out, the sparge has to be slower then you think. But I think Mikethepool guy hit the biggest part! I had the same issues when I started all grain. I was crushing my grains to damn near to dust, spending 20 minutes mixing the grains, sparging for 30 plus minutes. Still only hitting mid 60s on my efficency..WTF..so I had to look at my water. Got my mash Ph down to 5.2-5.4 range BAMM !! In the high 70s low 80s. I’ll bet your mash Ph is in the 5.8 range and your conversion rate sucks.

Click to expand...

Anyway to tell what my PH is? My city's water report is garbage and doesn't list it.

unfortunately, you'll have to get a pH meter.

try out TH's EZ Water Spreadsheet. my efficiency improved greatly when i started messing with my water.

Vertias524,

Lucky for me my Water report was pertty good. I posted my profile in the Beer Science tab. Asking for input, I got a ton. For me I had to go to a 2:1 dilution with distilled water and add some Gypsum, Cal Chloride, and latic acid to my mash. I worked it all out with the EZ water spreadsheet. I saw a 20% jump on the first batch.

A Ph meter is the best way to check, but I don't have one. So, I went with a ballpark approach that's why I diluted with distilled water to level my base numbers. I tried to hit the middle of what is ideal. I will be picking up a meter very soon.

Trust me, before you invest in equipment get a bottle of iodaphor and brew as usual, testing at 20 minute intervals for mash conversion. This is where your efficiency problems are coming from. (I am speaking to the OP). If you have clear, unambiguous complete conversion in the mash tun, and poor efficiency, then I'll agree that you have larger issues that perhaps only a chemist can solve, but probably not.