Lab results are in and need assistance

j2bink said:

I'm convinced this had much to do with my starting pH which was later measured to be 7.0.

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The water pH has very little to do with mash pH. It is the alkalinity that determines where the mash pH will go.

j2bink said:

Looks like on brew day I need to calibrate and measure tap water pH instead of assuming the water report pH is up to date.

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Your source water may well be variable and the fact that the pH is different from day to day can be taken as an indicator that this is happening but if you want to compensate for change then you must measure the alkalinity at each brew day. This is easy enough to do with inexpensive kits which can be obtained from aquarists or suppliers such as Hach.

j2bink said:

Another challenge I seemed to face was determining what value to record when using the Ph meter. The display just didn't seems to settle. When I say this it wasn't jumpy rather shifting 0.05 within 10 minutes. Is this unusual with a meter that has a resolution to 0.01?

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No, it' normal. See the pH Meter Calibration sticky.

j2bink said:

By thy the way I'm using the MW102 from Milwaukee.

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Some posters here have had terrible luck with these and for others they have been fine. See the pH Calibration sticky for tips on how to check the stability of your meter.

j2bink said:

I need to prepare myself for next time.

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There is a bit of a learning curve with pH meters as there is with almost everything else. Practice with your meter on various food items around the house: vinegar, milk, lemon juice, baking soda solution, tap water, coffee (cooled), soda, orange juice...

j2bink said:

I'm not sure why the CaC03 read -98 and the RA at -160. Can this be possible?

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Not at a pH of 5.48. There must be something wrong with the program or calculator you used. Alkalinity is the amount of acid required to reduce the pH of 1 liter of water to a reference pH near 4.5. If you were given a sample with a pH less than the reference pH you would have to remove acid (add base) to bring the pH to the reference pH and the alkalinity of that sample would be negative.

RA = alkalinity - [calcium_hardness + magnesium_hardness/2]/3.5. Thus if the alkalinity is negative or less than [calcium_hardness + magnesium_hardness/2]/3.5 the RA can be negative. This does happen for the second reason but not for the first.

Doubtless the reason you are seeing the negative numbers is because of the addition of sauermalz but the program/spreadsheet/calculator you are using apparently isn't handling the calculation properly.

I think AJ needs a cup of coffee. His post was informative as usual but I think he missed the point on a couple of items.

First off, congratulations J2bink, shooting for 5.46 and hitting 5.29 is a job well done. If you brew the same recipe again you might adjust it slightly.

Your meter reading will take a long time to stabilize, especially on readings near 7. You take the last indication after it quits moving. If it drifts up and down, that’s instability, but if it steadily walks to a final reading, that’s normal. Five or ten minutes is not unusual.

The other thing is about “terrible luck” with the MW102. I think he’s lumping all the Milwaukee’s together with a blanket assessment. Recently Yooper had a hard time with the pH56, but I’m not aware of any problems with the MW101/102.

Wynne-R said:

I think AJ needs a cup of coffee.

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Well it was late at night but I did miss the 'un' in 'unusual'. It is indeed quite normal to have steady drift over the first 20 minutes (and more) as the Calibration Sticky plainly states.

j2bink said:

Well I completed my first attempt using a ph meter as well as using acidified malt and adding Calcium Sulfate and Calcium Carbonate to the mash. As you can see from my fist and original post my water ph read 8.0 (tested from wards labs). Not until after I mashed I decided to investigate why my ph was lower than my target (target 5.45, measured 5.29). I'm convinced this had much to do with my starting pH which was later measured to be 7.0. What other carbonate and/or bicarbonates are effected in my water report due to have a measured pH of 7.0 water than 8.0 for this instance. If this information is known I need to make the corrections to my water profile for that day. Looks like on brew day I need to calibrate and measure tap water pH instead of assuming the water report pH is up to date.

Another challenge I seemed to face was determining what value to record when using the Ph meter. The display just didn't seems to settle. When I say this it wasn't jumpy rather shifting 0.05 within 10 minutes. Is this unusual with a meter that has a resolution to 0.01? By thy the way I'm using the MW102 from Milwaukee. I need to prepare myself for next time. See attached is my water profile before and after. Take a look and share your comments about the ions added with respect the the DIPA beer style that was brewed. I'm not sure why the CaC03 read -98 and the RA at -160. Can this be possible?

Thanks,

~Justin

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Why was acid malt and chalk added to the mash? They counteract each other and should never be added together. Its too bad this calculator failed you.

The good thing is that chalk does not dissolve in the mash and provide much alkalinity. I wouldn't be surprised that if Justin deleted the chalk addition from the calculator, that it would predict a mash pH near his observed reading.

As can be deduced from Justin's and AJ's posts, there are no EZ solutions to brewing water chemistry. Fortunately for Justin, ending a tenth or two low is not the end of the world. This should still be good beer.

Check post #40, I think he meant calcium chloride.

As far as target pH, it’s a bit of a crap shoot, isn’t it? I just hit 5.0, aiming for 5.2 on my house pale. That was even with a GH test.

I blame AJ and his stupid standard deviations. (kidding)

That's OK. Better than being accused of deviations which are not standard.

Why a GH test instead of a KH test? The alkalinity reported by the KH test is more useful for pH evaluation.

Wynne-R said:

Check post #40, I think he meant calcium chloride.

As far as target pH, it’s a bit of a crap shoot, isn’t it? I just hit 5.0, aiming for 5.2 on my house pale. That was even with a GH test.

I blame AJ and his stupid standard deviations. (kidding)

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Wynne-R is correct. I ment to say calcium chloride. I read to many bad things with chalk so I decided to stay away.

mabrungard said:

Why was acid malt and chalk added to the mash? They counteract each other and should never be added together. Its too bad this calculator failed you.

The good thing is that chalk does not dissolve in the mash and provide much alkalinity. I wouldn't be surprised that if Justin deleted the chalk addition from the calculator, that it would predict a mash pH near his observed reading.

As can be deduced from Justin's and AJ's posts, there are no EZ solutions to brewing water chemistry. Fortunately for Justin, ending a tenth or two low is not the end of the world. This should still be good beer.

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It was late yes and I mentioned the wrong addition. It is calcium chloride not calcium carbonate. AJ no worries, I appreciate you getting back to me so prompt. As a protectionist I was disappointed with my ph reading and will try mabrungard spreadsheet next time rather than EZ. Have to admit that EZ spreadsheet is much more user friendly for the beginner...

j2bink said:

Have to admit that EZ spreadsheet is much more user friendly for the beginner...

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Hang in there. An easy to use alternative is on the way.

Kai

Ooops! I was thinking K as in kalium (potassium.) Obviously I didn’t think it through. It is indeed KH, I checked the package. It was a brain fart.

For those following along at home, there are two different kits you get at the aquarium store, GH and KH.

GH is General Hardness which has to do with metal ions, calcium and magnesium. It’s sort of a ‘ring around the collar’ measure of how much detergent you need to wash stuff.

KH is Carbonate Hardness which has to do with how much acid it takes to move the pH of the water. That’s the one brewers care about.

Thanks, Martin, for keeping me honest.

KH is a very confusing term and I always have to pause when I see it. Karbonathärte - carbonate hardness - is not hardness at all but the part of the hardness, if there is any, which is electrically neutralized by, mostly, bicarbonate and carbonate i.e the alkalinity. Water containing no or little calcium but lots of sodium, for example, the water from a home water softener, has appreciable Karbonathärte even though it has no or little hardness.

I purchased the Milwaukee 250ml buffers for 4.01 and 7.01. I was thinking about what is the best way to prepare the buffers for calibration. I'm thinking about getting 50ml beakers to use. I would like to know if there is a minimal volume of buffer required to properly calibrate the meter and does my buffers require to be mixed with DI? I assume no mixing is required since no instructions are printed on the bottle. Please review the attachment. Thanks

j2bink said:

I purchased the Milwaukee 250ml buffers for 4.01 and 7.01. I was thinking about what is the best way to prepare the buffers for calibration. I'm thinking about getting 50ml beakers to use. I would like to know if there is a minimal volume of buffer required to properly calibrate the meter and does my buffers require to be mixed with DI? I assume no mixing is required since no instructions are printed on the bottle. Please review the attachment. Thanks

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Anyone can help?

I use a shot glass for each one.

Shot glasses sound good to me but small plastic (or glass) beakers are fine. The things in the photo are nice because you can close the cap which prevents cockroaches from falling in, keeps dust out etc and sealed in one of them you should be as good as sealed in the bottle. You only need a thimblefull - enough to wet both the bulb and reference aperture but keep in mind that each time you go into the buffer you will be carrying some DI water with you even if you are following the instructions in the Calibration article (Stickies https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/ph-meter-calibration-302256/). The point being that the more buffer you have in the cup, the less this water will dilute it.

Why use another container? I just pour each buffer into the cap of each bottle. The probe of my Milwaukee MW-101 will fit in the cap and the cap is deep enough to fully submerge the bulb. After calibration, the buffer in the caps is tossed in the sink.

Danger of contamination - small but finite. I treat the stock bottle with the same level of respect that only my wife receives. If I'm weighing out a quantity of some chemical and the spoon has a few extra mg I don't put them back in the stock bottle for the same reason. I know there is probably more danger of contamination from the spoon than there is from anything the substance is likely to pick up from the air while in the spoon. I guess it's just habit based on what my notions of what GLP ought to be (though I have no idea what they really are).

I agree. I do shake the 'used' buffers out of the caps, but I suppose there is that possibility of contamination in some form. I'll live with it.

I just purchased the buffer capsules, so I'll be able to replace (recreate) my buffer standards on a more frequent basis now. Before, I was going a year or two before replacing the standards. I know, that is not very good practice!

I like the way this thread is going. Very informative. I have questions about the plastic beaker with snap cap. Where can I order them and how big are they. Importantly, I'm assuming my 250ml Milwaukee buffers don't need pre-mixed (picture above) and how long do you keep your used buffer in the plastic beaker before you pour a new one?

Thanks.

http://www.hach.com/sample-container-120ml-high-pf/product?id=7640237101&callback=qs

They come in a smaller 45 mL size too. Only $0.28 each but you have to buy 600.

Martin: these are great for use with the capsules. Measure in 100 mL or 50 mL DI water (depending on whose caps you have), dump in the powder, close the lid and shake.

If you brew twice a month do you use the same buffer sample that is mixed and stored in the plastic beaker with cap?

I mix new buffer (from the capsules) each time I brew. I would guess 2 weeks for buffer from a stock bottle would be OK (except for pH 10 which you aren't going to be using in brewing anyway).

I actually reuse 2 oz of the buffers in 4 oz bottles. every 6 month I replace it with stock pH buffer solution. The drift over the 6 months is never more than 0.02. Having the pH buffer in small bottles also makes it easier to heat it to 25 C.

Kai

j2bink said:

I purchased the Milwaukee 250ml buffers for 4.01 and 7.01. I was thinking about what is the best way to prepare the buffers for calibration. I'm thinking about getting 50ml beakers to use. I would like to know if there is a minimal volume of buffer required to properly calibrate the meter and does my buffers require to be mixed with DI? I assume no mixing is required since no instructions are printed on the bottle. Please review the attachment. Thanks

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Are these buffers premixed and ready to calibrate? Where do you buy the capsules that alot of people are using?

Yes, the bottles contain pre-mixed liquid buffer.

For the capsules:

http://www.hach.com/buffer-powder-p...d-red-pk-50/product?id=7640204347&callback=qs

http://www.coleparmer.com/Product/Buffer_capsules_pH_4_0_orange/EW-05977-12

I picked up my capsules on Ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/pHydrion-Bu...817?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item485035a359

j2bink said:

I purchased the Milwaukee 250ml buffers for 4.01 and 7.01. I was thinking about what is the best way to prepare the buffers for calibration. I'm thinking about getting 50ml beakers to use. I would like to know if there is a minimal volume of buffer required to properly calibrate the meter and does my buffers require to be mixed with DI? I assume no mixing is required since no instructions are printed on the bottle. Please review the attachment. Thanks

Click to expand...

Are these buffers premixed and ready to calibrate? Where do you buy the capsules that alot of people are using?

mabrungard said:

I picked up my capsules on Ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/pHydrion-Buffer-Capsules-1-Vial-10-Capsules-pH-4-/310583337817?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item485035a359

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Martin. Can you post a pick of your capsules. What to see what size. Thanks.

j2bink said:

Martin. Can you post a pick of your capsules. What to see what size. Thanks.

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They are 'horse pill' sized capsules. You add them to 100 mL of distilled water. That should last me about 6 months, so the 10 capsules should last many years and they won't go bad like pre-mixed solution will (it absorbs gases and contaminants from the air).

I found some in a drawer. Photo below. I wouldn't try to keep these things for years. They do change over time. Hach puts expiration dates on theirs (couple of years). Understanding that you can sell more buffer capsules (or anything else) by stating shorter expiry dates and being the cynic that I am I tend to keep them beyond the expiry dates but I wouldn't go into 'years' and I certainly wouldn't use the solutions for more than a single brew or lab experiment. The pHydiron caps are a bit less than a buck apiece from Cole Parmer (and a bit more from Amazon - I think this may be the first time I've seen Cole Parmer the less expensive source of anything but there's a first time for everything). The Hach ones are $0.36 apiece. That's the whole idea behind the caps - that you can have a fresh buffer each time you go to work. Time isn't the only factor - in fact it may not be the main factor. Each time you put the probe into the buffer you are carrying some of whatever was on the probe with it. If you follow the recommendations of the Sticky that will be a very small quantity of DI water but even so you are diluting the buffer with that.

Remember that with a decent meter it will be the buffers that determine the accuracy of your meter. It seems 'penny wise and pound foolish' not to invest a $0.72 a brew (or $1.44 a month - i.e. make new buffers every 2 weeks - if you brew frequently) to be assured of the quality of your pH readings.

It is recognized that if you have a cheapo meter with stability of worse than 0.05 pH over 5 minutes that it isn't necessary to try to keep the buffer pH's within the ±0.02 promised on the label.

Now a question for you readers. How many were eagle eyed enough to note that the label in the photo says that these buffers are 'Directly Traceable to N.B.S. Standards'? That will give you some idea as to how long these have been lying in that drawer. I don't think I'll throw them out. I think I'll keep them around and compare the pH to a fresher buffer.

I would like to by a few quantities of a small plastic beaker with lid. Not looking to buy 600 pieces. Does anyone have a source?

ajdelange said:

http://www.hach.com/sample-container-120ml-high-pf/product?id=7640237101&callback=qs

They come in a smaller 45 mL size too. Only $0.28 each but you have to buy 600.

Martin: these are great for use with the capsules. Measure in 100 mL or 50 mL DI water (depending on whose caps you have), dump in the powder, close the lid and shake.

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The plastic beaker with caps are available for under 2 dollars each form hach. Im going to pick up a few. Would you recommend only using them for so long until replacement?

ajdelange said:

Yes, the bottles contain pre-mixed liquid buffer.

For the capsules:

http://www.hach.com/buffer-powder-pillows-ph-4-01-nist-color-coded-red-pk-50/product?id=7640204347&callback=qs

http://www.coleparmer.com/Product/Buffer_capsules_pH_4_0_orange/EW-05977-12

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Hello AJ

Is this the correct capsules for the 7.01? I would like to place an order soon!

http://www.hach.com/buffer-powder-p...olor-coded-yellow-pk-50/product?id=7640205050 buffer?

Yes.

Does hach have an alkalinity kit you would recommend? Unless you can confirm my Taylor pool alkalinity kit will work. It is a titration kit. Not the generic paper strips.

Yes, http://www.hach.com/alkalinity-test-kit-model-al-ta/product?id=7640219549.

But I also suggest that people consider doing the testing as described at
http://www.wetnewf.org/pdfs/measuring-alkalinity.html mostly if they are interested in understanding the process. That page also illustrates the Hach Digital Titrator which, while it is quite expensive, can also be used for other tests such as hardness and chloride.

AJ

Is this good enough for measuring alkalinity? I have this one already.

http://www.taylortechnologies.com/products_kitinfo.asp?KitID=2471

Yes, should be fine. Only does total alkalinity but
1. Your P -alkalinity is probably 0
2. Even if it isn't you don't care as a brewer.

I'm brewing a delicate Czech Pilsner tomorrow and needs some help quickly. Need to lower mash ph and still have a positive but yet low biarcarbonate level. I need some assistance from the experts please. Also on a side note I plane on diluting with 50% RO water per the finished water profile attachment.

Also if I need to acidify mash with 7.1 ml of 88% lactic what is the equivalent grams need if using Acidulated Malt?