Hoppy Berliner?

I understand that Berliners typically have few if any hops, since IBUs are bad for lacto. But it seems like the fruitiness of late hops would mesh well with the sourness of a Berliner. My plan is to brew a hopless berliner, sour it, pasteurize to kill the lacto and do a hopstand at the end of the pasteurization, then ferment out with yeast. I'll probably dry-hop.

Has anyone done something similar? Is there any reason it won't work? Any advice on what yeast and hops to use?

Personally, I would use a clean yeast (US-05 is my go to) and any fruity hops.

I've done a no boil Berliner Weisse and dry hopped a gallon with Sorachi Ace. It turned out well. Had a lemonade thing going on. I think any citrusy hops would play well with the tartness in the BW.

Thanks for the feedback. I figured fruity hops was the way to go, just undecided about classic American citrus or something tropical. I have some Nelson and Topaz stashed away, along with large quantities of Cascade and Summit. I suppose hoppy and sour is complicated enough that I wouldn't need (or notice) anything special from the yeast, but part of me wants to use either saison yeast or a fruit-bomb.

Galaxy could be awesome for this experiment, also!

I haven't done it yet, but I plan on doing the same thing next month. From what you listed, I think cascade & nelson would work great. I'm going with nelson & citra and fermented with brett brux trois.

I recently did a sour with late & DH'd nelson that turned out great if that helps

I've been mulling the idea of a Nelson dry-hopped Berliner. I'd be interested to see how this turns out for you.

dcp27 said:

I haven't done it yet, but I plan on doing the same thing next month. From what you listed, I think cascade & nelson would work great. I'm going with nelson & citra and fermented with brett brux trois.

I recently did a sour with late & DH'd nelson that turned out great if that helps

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I have no trois. Maybe i should get some. What do you think of using Conan or 71-B?

I recently had some very good results with a sour mashed Berliner that brought a silver and a score of 38 in BJCP comp. I sour mashed for three days, boiled with no hops, and fermented with WLP-400 since I had some on hand and this was just an experimental batch. I thought about pitching a Lacto strain which is why I choose to do no hops in the boil but did not get any on hand before I brewed. The beer was actually a touch lifeless when it was done and kegged up. It got very tart and was nice and dry but it just did not thrill me. At the same time I was tasting and trying to decide why I was not enjoying the Berliner I was dry hopping and American IPA with Citra and Centennial.

I decided to throw some of the centennial and citra in the keg of Berliner. I left it in there for about three or four days. Man did it wake the beer up. It really changed the entire profile of the beer. There was of course a bit of citrus and a touch of grassy aroma in the nose. The flavor came around the most with a nice bit of tropical fruit and citrus fruit notes. The fruitiness really seems to be enhanced with the tartness of the beer.

Although it was just an experiment I am pretty sold on dry hopping my Berliner beers from now on. Next round is a true Lacto fermented batch with no hops in the boil and dry hopped with something interesting. I may even split it and do half with a the conan yeast and half with brett strain.

A little off topic but just curious: did you enter it as a specialty beer?

I just ask because, as a BJCP judge, I can't imagine giving a beer entered as a straight Berliner that's fermented with wit yeast and dry-hopped a 38. Not to say it's not a very tasty beer, just not to style.
I judged a comp in Feb where one of the Berliner entries I scored was obviously dry-hopped with C hops (or something similar). It was definitely tasty, would have been super refreshing on a summer day, but I would have scored it better as a specialty beer.

WilliamWS said:

A little off topic but just curious: did you enter it as a specialty beer?

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I'd hafta imagine so, I did the same with my aforementioned nelson hopped sour earlier this summer and also got some fortunate results (40, gold)

kingwood-kid said:

I have no trois. Maybe i should get some. What do you think of using Conan or 71-B?

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I've never used the 71-B, but the Conan could work well and may be more interesting than chico, tho I have enjoyed the chico equivalents on two IPAs better. I like the trois with hops, its even fruitier than conan, but this will be my first time trying it in a berliner (and first berliner in general)

I think your plan sounds extremely sensible. I'll be interested to hear the results. I'll be brewing another berliner in a couple months.

FWIW I would use kolsch yeast. I love the mouth feel kolsch yeast gives to beers that finish dry and I have had a lot of success using kolsch yeast in lower OG hop forward beers. It's my go to yeast for American Wheat's specifically.

I would not use Conan...It will dominate the flavor. The more I use the yeast the less I like it, it makes beers so one dimensional unless you have a ton of dank/piney/earthy hop flavor and bitterness.

WilliamWS said:

A little off topic but just curious: did you enter it as a specialty beer?

I just ask because, as a BJCP judge, I can't imagine giving a beer entered as a straight Berliner that's fermented with wit yeast and dry-hopped a 38. Not to say it's not a very tasty beer, just not to style.
I judged a comp in Feb where one of the Berliner entries I scored was obviously dry-hopped with C hops (or something similar). It was definitely tasty, would have been super refreshing on a summer day, but I would have scored it better as a specialty beer.

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Nope entered as a straight 17a Berliner Weisse. I used the wit yeast not only because I had it on hand to spare for this last minute experimental brew day but because I thought some of the flavor characteristics might play well with the sourness of the beer and it is none to produce a slightly tart flavor profile. I did not get any of the traditional phenols or wit characteristics out of this possibly because I fermented cool. I had it set at 64 because I had and IPA in the chamber with it and did not have a separate chamber available for a different temp.

The beer was pretty lifeless at first so when I say it really came around with the dry hop that does not mean the dry hop was not subtle. It was no where near the hop characteristics you would find in say dry hopped APA or IPA. Straight out of the keg the hop aroma is a bit bright but does not overpower the beer. The hop flavor is even more subtle but certainly there. I can only imagine that it did mellow out and become even less hop forward after 4 weeks in the bottle as it was waiting to be judged. I counter pressure fill off the keg for all my entries so I often wonder how close the beer in the judges tasting glass is to the one in my glass straight out of the tap. I keep telling myself I need to bottle up extras and save them for a few weeks to try but I never seem to get around to it.

Xpertskir said:

I would not use Conan...It will dominate the flavor. The more I use the yeast the less I like it, it makes beers so one dimensional unless you have a ton of dank/piney/earthy hop flavor and bitterness.

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I am exactly the opposite. The more I use it the more I like it. I have had several staple beers (known flavor profiles, hop bills, and malt bills) that were tried on Conan instead of their normal yeast and in every case the beer was better in my opinion on the Conan. Granted they were all IPA's with either a boat load of citrus "C" hops or something with fruit. I have tried both commercial and homebrew examples and the story was always the same.

I do like the Kolsch yeast suggestion though. I will have to add that one to my yeast bank and try it on a couple of experiments.

Aardwolf Brewery here in Jacksonville did a couple of pilot batches of BW that were dry hopped...Centennial I believe..it was AWESOME.

I plan to brew as written in original post, then split into 5 1-gallon batches with 1oz hopstand in each. I'm definitely going with Nelson, Sorachi and Topaz. My other choices are EKG, Nugget, Columbus, Summit, Saaz, Hersbrucker, Cascade, Target, Simcoe, Palisade, Chinook, Spalt. I suppose I could buy a couple ounces of something else at the LHBS if there's a need, although they don't have any Galaxy. If anyone has any nominations or words of caution, I'm all ears.

Xpertskir said:

I would not use Conan...It will dominate the flavor. The more I use the yeast the less I like it, it makes beers so one dimensional unless you have a ton of dank/piney/earthy hop flavor and bitterness.

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I agree and disagree here. I just did a what I'll call a pale IPA with Conan. While the yeast without a doubt overpowers the flavor, the flavor itself (for me at least) was peach all the way. That peach may play really well with a Berliner and the hops added would simply be more of a supporting note. Could work well.

I'm going to make a dry hopped berliner with Nelson Sauvin hops. Just ordered the stuff from Northern brewer. I'll let you guys know how that goes.

Have a berliner on right now dry hopped with citra (no hops otherwise). Turned out really nice, though I think some sorachi ace would have worked better.

What are your thoughts of doing a sour mash till the pH hits ~3.5, then boiling with a pale ale amount of hops? Recommended or not?

I mixed a Berliner Weisse with an IPA recently and was pleased with the result. It was a citrusy IPA. The lemony tartness from the BW complimented the hops well.

chip82 said:

What are your thoughts of doing a sour mash till the pH hits ~3.5, then boiling with a pale ale amount of hops? Recommended or not?

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My concern is that the sourness and bitterness will not combine well. I might be entirely wrong about this. Sour and fruity sounds like a winning combo, however.