Local Brewpub getting screwed...

Neigbor being a total tool over a local brewpub opening and not even willing to discuss anything:

http://fox43.com/2013/05/31/mount-joy-brewery-fighting-to-stay-open/#axzz2V9q5J9g1

Hopefully they can resolve it and move on.

That sucks. What's the neighbors gripe regarding parking?

I guess their concern is a lack of space for parking and will cause more traffic in the area but at least sack up and discuss the issue instead of causing issues then hiding behind your door.

That's lame.

a business might generate traffic? dear god, no. whatever are they thinking, trying to live the American Dream and all?

/sarcasm.

best of luck to the owners. --The brewpub owners, not the gripey house owners.

Don't know, nobody in their sane mind would drive to the pub over here (well, specially not back from it! )

The neighbors won't open their door? If they don't open their door then they don't have customers and if they don't have customers why do they need parking?

Edit: I watched the video and it appears to be in a residential area. In CA that wouldn't fly no matter what the business was, you can't have a bunch of customers showing up in a residential area.

That makes me grind my damned teeth... If I was in that area I would be going to all of those neighbors myself and giving them a piece of my mind

They have a petition on their facebook page, signed and shared

Everyone who sees this thread should sign this petition:
https://www.change.org/petitions/pe...-a-brewpub-license-to-zuckfoltzfus-brewing-co

Monster Mash said:

I watched the video and it appears to be in a residential area. In CA that wouldn't fly no matter what the business was, you can't have a bunch of customers showing up in a residential area.

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X2

I am all for more businesses opening up (my paycheck depends on them)
But I also think that it appears to be in a residential area if not in a remodeled house. I would have to agree with the neighbors if it is in a neighborhood. Last thing I would want the house across the street open up as a bar with just a driveway for parking. Zoning would be the first thing I would think a business owner would look at.

I am not downplaying his ambition. Just think they put the cart before the horse. Some of us may be a bit bias because the particular business he is trying to run. Would you think the same if a neighbor opened a paint store?

Edit: I googled mapped it. I am not sure the town has any planed zoning. They have homes, dance studio and a funeral home as neighbors. Odd set up. His property only has two parking places. They would have to share the lot behind for additional parking. That may be the issue at hand.

Yellowirenut said:

X2

I am all for more businesses opening up (my paycheck depends on them)
But I also think that it appears to be in a residential area if not in a remodeled house. I would have to agree with the neighbors if it is in a neighborhood. Last thing I would want the house across the street open up as a bar with just a driveway for parking. Zoning would be the first thing I would think a business owner would look at.

I am not downplaying his ambition. Just think they put the cart before the horse. Some of us may be a bit bias because the particular business he is trying to run. Would you think the same if a neighbor opened a paint store?

Edit: I googled mapped it. I am not sure the town has any planed zoning. They have homes, dance studio and a funeral home as neighbors. Odd set up. His property only has two parking places. They would have to share the lot behind for additional parking. That may be the issue at hand.

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Reading elsewhere, the proposed parking is in an area that is owned by Amtrak and they have zero issue with this. The brewery was all go and set to get all of their licensing until someone complained at the last minute.

They should call their state rep's and state senator's offices...killing a small business before it starts.

Yellowirenut said:

X2

I am all for more businesses opening up (my paycheck depends on them)
But I also think that it appears to be in a residential area if not in a remodeled house. I would have to agree with the neighbors if it is in a neighborhood. Last thing I would want the house across the street open up as a bar with just a driveway for parking. Zoning would be the first thing I would think a business owner would look at.

I am not downplaying his ambition. Just think they put the cart before the horse. Some of us may be a bit bias because the particular business he is trying to run. Would you think the same if a neighbor opened a paint store?

Edit: I googled mapped it. I am not sure the town has any planed zoning. They have homes, dance studio and a funeral home as neighbors. Odd set up. His property only has two parking places. They would have to share the lot behind for additional parking. That may be the issue at hand.

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I wish them luck, but I have to agree that maybe they jumped the gun here by pouring all that money and effort into the thing without at least sounding the neighbors out.

If this is residential, or even mixed use they had to know that there would be opposition to a bar opening.

If they can sell but not consume on premesis, then maybe growlers can sustain them till the argument is settled... Might get a bunch of support that way too.

Signed

Doongie said:

If they can sell but not consume on premesis, then maybe growlers can sustain them till the argument is settled... Might get a bunch of support that way too.

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Making lemonade out of a lemon... or should that beer beer
Might be difficult to get the normal Joe public to buy a growler of something he has yet to taste if samples are also off the table.
I agree that the owner should have had the permission sorted before getting this far in, but who's to say the objection wasn't raised by someone that moved in a week before.

This happens all the time with the PLCB. Neighbors in a certain distance from the place can petition, and it goes to a hearing which will be a huge PITA for the brewpub. The PA liquor law is a mess, since just one person with any unfounded claim (usually from my experience) can delay the process. Hopefully they can get up and running.

Look, I'm about 30 days from opening the doors to my nanobrewery. I also poured my heart and soul into this, and took out a fairly large loan. Right now I am in the final phase of licensing where people have a chance to object...

I did my research and chose a location in a properly-zoned area that was previously used as retail space with everything up to code and plenty of parking. I think it's important to figure everything out first, but in this case these neighbors are screwing these people. If someone's livelihood is at stake, suck it up and quit your bitching.

I hate **** like this. Just two weekends ago my dad's wedding was shut down because a neighbor called a noise complaint at 10:30 PM on a Saturday. If it was up to me I would solve these problems by beating the living **** out of these people, but sadly that makes ME the criminal =P

not gonna side on either side but the brewpub ownwers should have done their homework and talked to the neighbors before construction

rexbanner said:

ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME!

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Sorry, but that's all I heard.


I don't think I'd be up for a bar or brewpub opening up that close to my home either. I love visiting them and hanging out when I can, but I bought my house only 3 years ago and if one started moving in a couple hundred feet down the road I might fight it as well.

Doesn't look/sound like the best of locations.

Sorry!

wailingguitar said:

Reading elsewhere, the proposed parking is in an area that is owned by Amtrak and they have zero issue with this. The brewery was all go and set to get all of their licensing until someone complained at the last minute.

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If they have a lease or a right to use certificate from amtrak, the hearing should go in their favor. If not its all dreams and hope and the neighbors have a legitimate concern. Parking and traffic are big issues in a residential neighborhood.

rexbanner said:

I hate **** like this. Just two weekends ago my dad's wedding was shut down because a neighbor called a noise complaint at 10:30 PM on a Saturday. If it was up to me I would solve these problems by beating the living **** out of these people, but sadly that makes ME the criminal =P

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and rightly so.

rexbanner said:

I hate **** like this. Just two weekends ago my dad's wedding was shut down because a neighbor called a noise complaint at 10:30 PM on a Saturday. If it was up to me I would solve these problems by beating the living **** out of these people, but sadly that makes ME the criminal =P

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What is your dads Saturday night may be someone else's Monday morning. It's always good to consider others, not everyone is on the same schedule. I know if I had to be up in a couple hours, or I had young kids that couldn't sleep, I would have damn sure shut down the wedding as well. It's not always the case the people are trying to kill the buzz.

As far as the brewpub, it sucks but it's also hard to be real sympathetic. Why would they get this far along in their plans without contacting the neighbors? "Hey guys, we want to open a brewpub next door. Is that ok with you?" I personally wouldn't want to live next to what is essentially a bar. I value my peace and solitude above all, and if something like this was trying to open up on my street I would also do anything I could to stop it. However, if it was in a different part of town I would obviously go out of my way to support it. I don't agree with their passive aggressive techniques though. They should have communicated if they were upset.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rexbanner
ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME!

Sorry, but that's all I heard.


I don't think I'd be up for a bar or brewpub opening up that close to my home either. I love visiting them and hanging out when I can, but I bought my house only 3 years ago and if one started moving in a couple hundred feet down the road I might fight it as well.

Doesn't look/sound like the best of locations.

Sorry!

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bottlebomber said:

What is your dads Saturday night may be someone else's Monday morning. It's always good to consider others, not everyone is on the same schedule. I know if I had to be up in a couple hours, or I had young kids that couldn't sleep, I would have damn sure shut down the wedding as well. It's not always the case the people are trying to kill the buzz.

As far as the brewpub, it sucks but it's also hard to be real sympathetic. Why would they get this far along in their plans without contacting the neighbors? "Hey guys, we want to open a brewpub next door. Is that ok with you?" I personally wouldn't want to live next to what is essentially a bar. I value my peace and solitude above all, and if something like this was trying to open up on my street I would also do anything I could to stop it. However, if it was in a different part of town I would obviously go out of my way to support it. I don't agree with their passive aggressive techniques though. They should have communicated if they were upset.

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I just like to live and let live for the most part. It's not all about me and my precious peace and quiet.

anybody know what the address is? I'm pretty sure it's on main st in mount joy, which according to the borough's own webpage is zoned as a commercial business district.
might explain why there are other BUSINESSES there.
the neighbors don't appear to have a leg to stand on, and are just being jerks about it.

I'd really like to see these folks dreams come true. Residential neighborhood might not have been the best place to open a Brewpub.

What upsets me more is the the city gave them a go ahead. All licenses were golden except for the last most important one.

These folks put their hard worked for money in a location that didn't well suit the neighborhood they were buiding in. City council didn't stop them. Maybe I"m trying to place blame but the city should have never encouraged them to this point. I can't believe they wouldn't have gotten this far without the support of the town council. It's a shame, truly a shame on everybody that let these folks go ahead with their plan. The owners are obviously hard working people. Where the crap was the town planner involved in all of this? My personal belief is the town let them down. Incompetence or greed, I don't know but this town let a business that could flourish, smother.

jlb307 said:

anybody know what the address is? I'm pretty sure it's on main st in mount joy, which according to the borough's own webpage is zoned as a commercial business district.
might explain why there are other BUSINESSES there.
the neighbors don't appear to have a leg to stand on, and are just being jerks about it.

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It seems to be about 200(ish) feet from a church, don't you guys usually have something about not being able to open a bar close to church's?

Dan said:

I'd really like to see these folks dreams come true. Residential neighborhood might not have been the best place to open a Brewpub.

What upsets me more is the the city gave them a go ahead. All licenses were golden except for the last most important one.

These folks put their hard worked for money in a location that didn't well suit the neighborhood they were buiding in. City council didn't stop them. Maybe I"m trying to place blame but the city should have never encouraged them to this point. I can't believe they wouldn't have gotten this far without the support of the town council. It's a shame, truly a shame on everybody that let these folks go ahead with their plan. The owners are obviously hard working people. Where the crap was the town planner involved in all of this? My personal belief is the town let them down. Incompetence or greed, I don't know but this town let a business that could flourish, smother.

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Why is it up to the town to do what is the responsibility of the person applying for the permits? Yes if they did say look I am trying to open a bar in a resedensial area or a few placed down from a church then the town should have advised (on good faith only) that maybe they should get pre-acceptance of the neighbours before going to far in. Who's to say the town didn't actually warn them anyway?

Neighbors are concerned about parking? Good heavens, it only seats about 30 -- how many cars are going to be coming through? If the neighbors have a legitimate complaint, they should have been forthright enough to speak to the news about it. Wouldn't be surprised if they don't bother showing up to the PLCB hearing.

I frequently deal with zoning and permitting in my city/county.

Something that routinely trips people up is that getting a permit approved for a project doesn't guarantee that they will be allowed to build it.

Sounds crazy, but that's how it works.

hercher said:

...Wouldn't be surprised if they don't bother showing up to the PLCB hearing.

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Now that would piss me off! And be a real a-hole move on their part, why cause someone so much anguish if you can't actually be bothered with it when it comes down to it!

wailingguitar said:

Reading elsewhere, the proposed parking is in an area that is owned by Amtrak and they have zero issue with this. The brewery was all go and set to get all of their licensing until someone complained at the last minute.

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OK, but Amtrak apparently isn't the one that lodged the complaint. It may well be their parking lot but if they allow open parking for everyone and the locals think they will be displaced from this parking then that's the matter at hand.

If I had a decent parking area then a business opened and now I have to walk some unknown distance to/from parking, if I can even find a spot, because of the business customers I probably wouldn't be exceptionally enthusiastic about it either.

Of course, all that assumes parking is the real issue and not just being used as a fictitious road block.

hercher said:

Neighbors are concerned about parking? Good heavens, it only seats about 30 -- how many cars are going to be coming through?

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It doesn't take many if space is already tight. Around here, it's pretty rare to see more than one or two arrive per car most of the time.

Where I work, arriving a couple minutes earlier or later determines if you're going to walk a little way or from the relatively distant overflow parking. The difference there is this is somewhat in my control.

The locals don't really have any control over the business traffic and potential conficts with their parking schedules. I'd think most people can't just take off work 1/2 hour early every day to beat the Brew Pub traffic for the last remaining parking spots.

What this issue really shows is the insane process of getting a liquor license and craft brew license.

I dont know of any other business that has to do this:

1. Buy the deed to the property\or rental agreement
2. Build the brewery
3. Then get all the inspections
4. Then get all the permits
5. Then get your neighbors approval
6. Then get the finale license that allows you to sell your product.

No other small business would do this. The normal process is:

1. Go to the the local government
2. Present your plans
3. Get all the permits
4. Get final approval from the government
5. Start building
6. Sell product.

First off, I'm in no way affiliated with this brewpub but live not too far away. Thanks to everyone who signed the petition and showing their support since I for one am all in favor of seeing a small business succeed, especially a brewpub. I guess I don't understand how this is an issue when the borough gave approval and AMTRAK gave their blessing for parking. Is it the best area...perhaps not, but it's a legal and approved area for a business. Hopefully it gets resolved sooner then later. As of now, I believe they are doing growlers so I'm going to see about making my way up there this weekend for a fill.

Cheers!

mattd2 said:

It seems to be about 200(ish) feet from a church, don't you guys usually have something about not being able to open a bar close to church's?

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I just visited Jamaica and one of the facts (mentioned by more than one shuttle driver/guide) was that nearly every church in Jamaica had a bar within 1-2 doors of it. They said that the women go to church, and the men go to the bar, and everyone leaves happy!

Edit: It took me a while to find the info, but the place is at 12 South Market Street in Mt. Joy, PA. There is indeed a church up the street on Main (in both directions), but this is far from a residential neighborhood as many have assumed from looking at the pictures in the linked article. There is a train track that runs across the street, and an Amtrack station (as noted) in the next block up. Look at the map, and you will see numerous other businesses in the area (and it is indeed, right in the first block off Main Street through Mt. Joy). I don't think these "neighbors" have a leg to stand on, and I'd bet this "parking issue" is a red herring invented by someone either disgruntled with the owners for some reason, or for some neo-prohibitionist ideals.
I may be traveling to York, PA on business in the near future, and if so, I will be sure to make a point to go and support this new craft brewery!

mattd2 said:

It seems to be about 200(ish) feet from a church, don't you guys usually have something about not being able to open a bar close to church's?

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There is an intersection in my hometown that has 3 bars and a church.

And that church has its own bar in the basement.

https://twitter.com/GoogleFacts/status/332556627448328192

Blog from Zuckfoltzfus (brewpub involved) if you're interested:

http://zuckfoltzfus.blogspot.com/

The brewpub's petition linked above says the neighbors' complaint petition claims the brewpub will take "their" parking (provided to them free by Amtrak) and will create noise in addition to the music (the brewpub has not secured a permit that would allow them to have live music, making that a moot point). As has been stated, this is not residential, it's zoned commercial. The zoning commission approved it and Amtrak has no problem, so basically I see this as businesses being mad that another business is opening and limiting the parking they're already mooching from a third party.

EDIT: To expand on that, if this was a market instead of a brewpub, there would be the same amount of parking taken up, the same commotion of people coming and going, but no Liquor Board to complain to to shut them down. They're taking advantage of loopholes because they don't want neighbors.

In Eastern PA its not uncommon to find businesses mixed into neighborhoods, especially in older areas. And more often then not this includes a bar or two. The PA Liquor Law gives the public too much ability to raise a big stink about liquor licensing. In the end most of the time it only ends up as a headache and added expenditures for the bar/brewpub/restaurant but the process is a major pain. They are probably just retired teetotalers with nothing more to do than ruin everyone elses day. Its a brewpub not a roadhouse poolhall.

TVM71 said:

Neigbor being a total tool over a local brewpub opening and not even willing to discuss anything:

http://fox43.com/2013/05/31/mount-joy-brewery-fighting-to-stay-open/#axzz2V9q5J9g1

Hopefully they can resolve it and move on.

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Some people just need a good old fashioned arse whipping.....

ktblunden said:

They're taking advantage of loopholes because they don't want neighbors.

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Maybe a loophole thing, or maybe they'd be pissed if it was a market too but in that case they apparently have no recourse.

There is one thing for certain in all of this however, and that's that a "suck it up, Cupcake" approach likely isn't the reponse that will result in an amicable solution.