4500w Element on two 110 outlets

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
It is not two phase power with two legs 180 degrees out of phase.

Well, yes it is. To quote from the summary at http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_10/2.html (at which you ought to have a look)

"A split-phase power system is one where there are two voltage sources, 180o phase-shifted from each other, powering a two series-connected loads. The advantage of this is the ability to have lower conductor currents while maintaining low load voltages for safety reasons."

You can argue that this is something (in fact the first thing) I found on the web searching for 'polyphase neutral' but I have never seen anything published nor, up until this point in my life, met anyone that contradicts what it says.

That connection of the o-scope doesn't hold water for this purpose. Neutral isn't the correct reference in this regard. Use the waveform math on that scope and add those two together. Do you get 240V or zero? ;)

I get 240 because I add them in the proper phase as happens when the transformer coils are connected correctly. One channel is connected from L2 to neutral and the other is connected from L1 to neutral so they are 180 ° out of phase. L2 is thus negative with respect to the neutral when L1 is positive WRT it but that means that the neutral is positive with respect to L1. Thus we are connected - + - + just like the batteries I mentioned in an earlier post and we get summation of the voltages. Take your transformer drawing (upper one) put in a load and do Kirchoff's law around the loop. Bottom to neutral is plus 120 V (bottom is negative with respect to neutral). Neutral to top is 120 V. They are connected in series positive to negative. The voltages add.

But at least I now know what the source of your confusion is. You don't understand that the reference is always taken at the neutral point in a Y connected system and perhaps don't understand that a biphase system is a degenerate Y connected 3 phase system.

You have to use an end point for reference because it's the only place you can get 120 AND 240, and as you see below they are in phase and that the voltage on CH B is 2x that of CH A because it's taken at the correct reference for a 120/240V circuit (disclaimer, I'm using a small step down transformer from the line but net result is the same, just lower voltage).

Not so. Using the center as the reference my scope picture clearly shows two 120 volt circuits. If I connect them in series I get 240V across the outside.

But the essence of your problem is the reference point and as I noted earlier this is arbitrary and mentioned that in a Y connected system the neutral is the only sensible reference (which is why it is used as such). So lets suppose we are in an industrial or office building fed with 3 phase Y connected power as they often are. It is common to have both 120V and 208 V circuits (for lights, floor polishers etc.). A given panel has two (of the three) phases connected to its breaker bars and the neutral connected to the neutral bar. It's a biphase system with the phases 120° apart instead of 180°. If we did my experiment or yours (I did notice that you changed the photograph from one with 2 different references to one with a common reference so I'm assuming the later is the one you want to convey) we would get a picture like the one below. I would get the green and blue traces. You would get one or the other and the black trace. If I moved the reference line on one of my channels to the the opposite phase I would get the black trace as well. Note that 100 here on the voltage scale represents 100% of either rms or peak voltage.

Now in this picture with the references connected my way the two phases are not 180° apart and connected your way the one phase and the sum are not in phase. How would you argue here? You couldn't say this is not a polyphase system and that the two phases not 120° apart because they clearly are. You cannot say the 120V and 240V circuits are in phase because they clearly aren't. The only difference between this 120° arrangement and the 180° one is the phase angle is 180 ° and that happens to be the phase angle that brings the phase to neutral voltage into alignment with the phase to phase voltage.

Now in a delta connected system there is no neutral and you have to pick a phase or phases (in a 2 channel scope hookup) as the reference. So perhaps that's where the misunderstanding lies i.e. you are thinking of a split-phase system as being more like a degenerate delta connected system when it is actually more like a degenerate Y connected one.


I do like your newer ScopeMeter though, but for my uses this old dog still hunts.

Fluke does make nice stuff.

Threephas.jpg
 
Well, yes it is. To quote from the summary at http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_10/2.html (at which you ought to have a look)

Thanks for that reference. It supports 100% what I've been saying all along.

What we're talking about in typical household 120/240V power is not biphase, polyphase, or two phase. It is single, split phase/split voltage, nothing 180 degrees out of phase.

From your own recommended reading, here: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_10/1.html

Second paragraph from the bottom above the Review section. To quote:

Power systems in American households and light industry are most often of the split-phase variety, providing so-called 120/240 VAC power. The term “split-phase” merely refers to the split-voltage supply in such a system. In a more general sense, this kind of AC power supply is called single phase because both voltage waveforms are in phase, or in step, with each other.

So we're done now with this two phase/biphase, 180 degrees out nonsense, right, since your own source says the same thing I've been saying all along?
 
Most of the things you guys were talking about went over my head, so it got me to thinkin, 'dont be proud of your ignorance', so i googled it and it looks to me like whoaru99 is right. Here is an informative link, i even looked at my power pole in front of my house to make sure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power
 
Sounds to me like they would be best friends if they could just sit down and have a homebrew together. :)
 
Thanks for that reference. It supports 100% what I've been saying all along.

What we're talking about in typical household 120/240V power is not biphase, polyphase, or two phase. It is single, split phase/split voltage, nothing 180 degrees out of phase.

From your own recommended reading, here: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_10/1.html

Second paragraph from the bottom above the Review section. To quote:

"Power systems in American households and light industry are most often of the split-phase variety, providing so-called 120/240 VAC power. The term “split-phase” merely refers to the split-voltage supply in such a system. In a more general sense, this kind of AC power supply is called single phase because both voltage waveforms are in phase, or in step, with each other."

That statement is perfectly true and the two voltages measured respectively from L2 to neutral and from neutral to L1 are in phase i.e. with two different references they are indeed in phase. But the voltages measured from a common reference point to respectively each of the phases are not. They are 180° out and that's what it says in the summary on the page I sent you. On the page you reference look at the Thevenin equivalent diagram. It shows two sources 180 different in phase.

The summary section on the 3 phase page I sent you says

"A split-phase power system is one where there are two voltage sources, 180o phase-shifted from each other, powering a two series-connected loads. The advantage of this is the ability to have lower conductor currents while maintaining low load voltages for safety reasons."


So we're done now with this two phase/biphase, 180 degrees out nonsense, right, since your own source says the same thing I've been saying all along?

Apparently not. What you have been saying and what you say in this last quote is that the 180 ° phase shift is nonsense and yet the article, which you claim says what you have been plainly saying plainly contradicts that in at least 2 places. This is not to say that the paragraph you quoted is not consistent with these other 2 places. It definitely is. You are not understanding that two in phase sources connected ---> ---> is the same thing as two sources 180 ° apart connected <---- ---->.

The definition of polyphase from one dictionary is

"1. (Engineering / Electrical Engineering) Also multiphase (of an electrical system, circuit, or device) having, generating, or using two or more alternating voltages of the same frequency, the phases of which are cyclically displaced by fractions of a period."

Other sources have similar definitions.

Do we have that here? Yes we do unless you wish to assert that the definition is nullified if that phase shift happens to be 180 ° and you'd have some support for that position from a Wikipedia article which says that for a system to be polyphase there must be rotation. But that doesn't make sense because it's still polyphase. Polyphase without rotation perhaps but polyphase never the less according to the definition.

I'm not so concerned about what you call it but more with failure to understand that there is a 180° phase shift between the hots on 120V circuits connected to different sides of your panel. If the two sides were in phase then an outlet connected between them would show 0 volts.
 
Most of the things you guys were talking about went over my head, so it got me to thinkin, 'dont be proud of your ignorance', so i googled it and it looks to me like whoaru99 is right. Here is an informative link, i even looked at my power pole in front of my house to make sure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power

You are probably focused on these sentences:

"Since there are two live conductors in the system, it is sometimes incorrectly referred to as "two-phase". The "hot" conductors' waveforms are offset by a half-cycle, or 180 degrees offset, when measured against the neutral wire. To avoid confusion with split-phase motor start applications, it is appropriate to call this power distribution system a 3-wire, single-phase, midpoint neutral system."

If there are two conductors and a neutral it meets the definition of two phase. There are 2 phases. In the post which precedes this one I gave a definition of polyphase and this meets it but I also mentioned the "mirror phase" argument.

The burning issue here beyond the semantics seems to be the 180° phase shift. This article clearly states that it is there. That is my position. Well it's more than my position, it is the way it is.

I don't disagree that it is appropriate to call it 3-wire, single-phase, midpoint neutral system in order to be perfectly clear about it but it is still a multiphase system.

To use the analogy I used earlier you can call my dog a Leonberger if you prefer but you can't say he's not a dog or say he has two right eyes.
 
I'm not so concerned about what you call it but more with failure to understand that there is a 180° phase shift between the hots on 120V circuits connected to different sides of your panel. If the two sides were in phase then an outlet connected between them would show 0 volts.

No.

There is no 180 phase shift. Your own oscilloscope proves that using the waveform math because if you sum those waves you put up the result is zero volts. Yet, we know for sure that if you grab those two wires it's not zero volts there, it's 240V. The only reason it looks like they're 180 out is because you're using the wrong reference point. A parlor trick, for lack of better terms.

One would think an EE would know that two waves of equal amplitude and frequency, when 180 out, will cancel not sum. Since we know the waves aren't canceled when both legs are used, we know the waves cannot be 180 out of phase.

Here are your two waves 180 out of phase (CH A and CH B), and their sum sitting right as zero (trace 4).

All the spin, fancy dancing, and deflection doesn't change the fact that waves 180 out don't add, they cancel. Therefore, the two legs cannot be 180 out because they definitely don't cancel. Further, the point about being two phase in this case is wrong. I grant you that two phase power could exist and may well exist in the wild (120/208 - 120V L-N, 208V L-L), but what we're discussing isn't that nor is that common household distribution.

Frankly, I think the whole notion of two waves in this regard (120/240 split voltage) is even flawed. It's the same wave, you're just looking at half of it on the left and half on the right from the midpoint. No out of phase involved because it's just plain old, simple, single phase. All the talking point trying to apply polyphase theory are non sequitur.

IMG_1708.jpg
 
I was wondering if two 20 amp outlets on different poles hooked up to a 4500w element would work. Wouldn't this work pretty much the same as a double pole 240 breaker?
That is an excellent question. It probably occurs to many people. The answer is
NO and NO
The reasons are
If you have a short and one breaker pops, then you have all that load going through the ground wire, so you have a 4500 watt element running through your walls. House fire.

Breakers and GFCIs are designed for a range of overload. Popping one GFCI and throwing the load on the other could cause the other to fail and weld itself into a hot mass inside your wall. Nouse fire.

And your insurance will not cover it because you caused it.

Never use 2 120V circuits as a single 240v circuit.

We would like to read how the beer turned out, not your obituary. Brew on, sir!
 
ajdelange said:
You are probably focused on these sentences:

"Since there are two live conductors in the system, it is sometimes incorrectly referred to as "two-phase". The "hot" conductors' waveforms are offset by a half-cycle, or 180 degrees offset, when measured against the neutral wire. To avoid confusion with split-phase motor start applications, it is appropriate to call this power distribution system a 3-wire, single-phase, midpoint neutral system."

.


Actually i was focused on the little diagram that showed batteries hooked up in series with another wire comming from the midpoint of the circuit between the + and - to give you your choice of voltages. Made perfect sense to me. But im not an EE just a guy. Really they can give u just the 220 but they just thought "hey, lets put the wires this way, then people can have the option of different voltage combos" ya cool idea mr thomas edison
 
No.

There is no 180 phase shift.Your own oscilloscope proves that using the waveform math because if you sum those waves you put up the result is zero volts.

The oscilloscope picture plainly shows two waveforms that are 180° out of phase. When one is at the voltage peak with respect to the reference (which is ground) the other is at the voltage minimum with respect to the reference. The voltage at a point is the potential difference between that point and some reference point. The potential difference (voltage) between two points is the difference in the potentials measured with respect to a common reference. In this case at peak we'd have +120 (ignore the sqrt(2)) factor on one phase and -120 on the other both with respect to the neutral. They are out of phase and the difference in potentials is 120 -(-120) = 240V. That's how this works. Subtracting the waveforms on the scope proves nothing except that they are (if I get a flat line) equal and opposite in phase (as they should be). Try to understand this. If you don't fully appreciate how voltages are measured it is little wonder you are confused.

The only reason it looks like they're 180 out is because you're using the wrong reference point. A parlor trick, for lack of better terms.

There is no such thing as a 'wrong' reference. The choice of reference is completely arbitrary as long as it is common. You may not like my choice of reference because it shows the fallacy in your argument but there is nothing wrong with it. If I choose the physicists reference, a sphere in space infinitely far away, there may be a cajillion volts potential difference between that point and the center tap on the transformer but that doesn't matter. When the potential at the top winding termination goes up to a cajillion + 120V the potential at the bottom winding will go down to a cajillion -120 and the difference will be 240.

And your choice doesn't change things either. With using the bottom phase as the reference you get +120 to the center tap and +240 to the top. Thus the potential across the top coil is +120. Thus the bottom is at -120 with respect to the center tap and the top at plus 120. Same as before.

If the choice is arbitrary then which point should we pick given that we can get the same information from any? I'd say the one that makes things the simplest. It seems obvious to me that in a balanced system with the center tap earthed ground (or the grounded conductor) is the obvious choice. When examining the wave form from an outlet on either side of the panel the reference is available to us. If we used a phase for the reference we'd have to drag a wire across the floor if the reference phase were connected to the opposite side of the system. Of course if all we are interested in is one side we can use that side's phase as the reference. Using the neutral produces equal voltages when both phases are examined. As the whole object of the system is to have 2 lower voltage circuits this would be desirable.The thing I really like about it is that it is consistent with the notion of the neutral as defined by the IEC as the conductor that connects to the star point in a Y connected polyphase system. IOW you don't have to shift gears when going from 3 phase to 2 phase systems.



One would think an EE would know that two waves of equal amplitude and frequency, when 180 out, will cancel not sum. Since we know the waves aren't canceled when both legs are used, we know the waves cannot be 180 out of phase.

We don't have two generators in series that are 180 apart. They are in phase. But they are connected L1---->T---->L2. Note that the high side (>) of the L1 generator is connected to the T (center tap) as is the low side of the L2 generator. This can be modeled by two generators which are 180° out of phase each with its low side connected to the center tap L1<---T--->L2 and that's what the textbooks and the 3 references mean/show when they diagram or talk about two out of phase sources. In any case L1 and L2 are 180° apart in phase with respect to T. They may do it this way because if you add a third arrow (generator with lo side to neutral) to make a thing that looks like the Mercedes logo you have the phasor diagram for a Y connected 3 phase system.

As this is going to be my swan song here (no point in repeating the same material to deaf ears again) I might suggest, if you know anything about electronics, that you have a look at things like push-pull amplifiers which are really exactly the same circuit with emphasis on trying to understand what the 'phase inverter' is for (in the simplest case it's a transformer connected just like the power pole ones but it can be electronics as well). Balanced mixers are another circuit which uses a center tapped transformer as a phase inverter.

All the spin, fancy dancing, and deflection doesn't change the fact that waves 180 out don't add, they cancel.

That depends on how they are connected. In a differential amplifier such as in a balanced microphone circuit (that's something else you might look at) they add. If you have two generators connected back to back (lo side of each to neutral), as we do here, they add. You must, when thinking about these things consider both the phase of the generator and how it is connected.

Your problem seems to be mostly caused by inability to recognize that there are other ways to model things than the model you cleave to. L1-->T-->L2 with the generators in phase is a fine model if you use T as the reference and a workable but clumsy one if you use L1 or L2. But L1<--T-->L2 is an equally good model if the generators are 180° apart in phase (and again you have the choice of reference). It's a better model in that it is symmetrical as is the system it is modeling. Symmetry makes things easier to see (for most people). The results will be the same with either. Voltages measured at L1 with respect to T will be of equal amplitude and opposite phase compared to voltages measured at L2 with respect to T.


Further, the point about being two phase in this case is wrong. I grant you that two phase power could exist and may well exist in the wild (120/208 - 120V L-N, 208V L-L), but what we're discussing isn't that nor is that common household distribution.

Certainly in most cases brewers will be in their homes in the US but the US isn't the whole world and the fact that in most cases it comes from a transformer on a pole doesn't make it wrong. You are still getting two phases. My reason for bringing this up was I thought that if you could understand what's happening in a 120/208 biphase system and appreciated that the only difference between that and the split phase system is 120° vs 180° you would understand that they are really the same in terms of voltages. But that didn't work. I also brought up the zig-zag generator wiring method as a means of obtaining split phase in the hopes that this would help you to see how things work but that didn't work either.



Frankly, I think the whole notion of two waves in this regard (120/240 split voltage) is even flawed. It's the same wave, you're just looking at half of it on the left and half on the right from the midpoint.

I thought you were of the opinion that looking at things with respect to the midpoint was a parlor trick.


No out of phase involved because it's just plain old, simple, single phase.

Once the third wire goes in it is no longer single phase. I will not repeat the definition of polyphase as I getting tired of laying this out for you over and over again. But I will point out that the two waveforms are not exact copies of one another because the transformer is not perfectly symmetric nor is the load. If one side has a power factor different from the other there will even be a phase shift so that you will have a phase difference of something other than 180°. This removes the 'mirror phase' argument but I feel more like a lawyer than an engineer in pointing that out.

If you look at voltages with respect to the midpoint there is no question that one phase will be 180° out with respect to the other (at least in most practitioner's minds).


All the talking point trying to apply polyphase theory are non sequitur.

Charlie Chan said in one of those movies "Mind like parachute. Function best when open." It's disapointing that you can't see the relevance but I don't feel that I've wasted my time entirely as it's sort of fun to go back and review some of this stuff.
 
Ajdelange and Whoaru99,

Thanks for schooling us on how we get 240v in our houses/breweries. This has been a very thought provoking thread and you've both delivered your arguments very well without resorting to diminishing the other.

Well done.
 
Ajdelange and Whoaru99,

Thanks for schooling us on how we get 240v in our houses/breweries. This has been a very thought provoking thread and you've both delivered your arguments very well without resorting to diminishing the other.

Well done.

If somebody got something out of it it was worth doing it.
 
Here's another interesting read, from the previously referenced source, that confirms once again what I've been saying all along.

The typical household supply, 120/240V, is just plain old single phase with nothing operating 180 degrees out from anything else. In-phase voltages from the two legs add, out of phase voltages from the two legs would cancel. There is no way you'd get 240V from two 120V legs that are out of phase with each other. It's no more complex than that despite the attempted obfuscation to say otherwise.

They even use some of the same examples that you tried to use, but they got it right. ;)

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_2/3.html
 
Here's another interesting read, from the previously referenced source, that confirms once again what I've been saying all along.

that is assuming we are talking about multiple "phases" of power, which we are not. 240v is a single "phase". it sounds like people are using words like "phase" and "single phase" and "polyphase" without knowing exactly what that means.

first- there is really no such thing as "two phase" power (let me qualify that with; "commonly found around here in the US"). we have either single phase or three phase power. "two phase" is a misnomer when comparing two different single phase (120v) power feeds. the two lines coming in that make up 240v are actually from the same "phase" of the three-phase transformer.


this is a diagram of the output of a wye transformer (those canisters about the size of a beer keg that hang on the electric pole outside your house; normally in clusters of two or three).



so the lines coming into your house would be; A, B, and Neutral/ground (your neighbor might be connected to lines B, C and neutral; and someone else to A, C, and neutral, etc). so you can see we are dealing with only one "phase". A+B=phase1, B+C=phase2, A+C=phase3; we only have lines A+B coming into the house, so we can only have access to that one phase.

now, how do we get 120 volts at the wall plug? the voltage potential between any two of the legs in the above picture is 240v. if you put a multimeter between A+B, or B+C, or A+C; it will read 240v. however- the voltage potential between any one of the legs and neutral happens to be 120v. there is some math that explans why this works, but im not going to muddy the waters for those who arent numbers people. but hopefully this helps you visualize why both sides of a 240v circuit are actually the same "phase", yet seemingly 180 degrees apart (A and B are actually 120 degrees apart in a three phase circuit).

so to answer the question 'how do we get 120 volts at the wall plug?'; one prong of the plug would be connected to A (or B), and the other prong of the plug would connect to neutral... giving 120v. if you have two plugs; one fed by A, and the other fed by B... you could design a device that plugged into each of them and provided 240v of power (one whole "phase").

EDIT: i mixed up my delta and wye transformers, though it doesnt matter exactly for this discussion- the idea is the same... its all one single "phase". but line voltage on a wye transformer between A+B (or any other combo of two) is actually 208v. see here...
 
Where do you guys come up with this stuff? If the voltage between the coil ends in your diagram (A, B or C) and the neutral is 120 V the voltage from one terminus to another (A-B, B-C or C-A) is 208 V because the the A-N, B-N and C-N are separated in phase by 120°. This is not how your house is connected. Go out to the pole and look. Assuming A, B, C, N (i.e. all three phases) appear on your pole there will a terminal on the transformer that is wired to one of the phases (A, B or C). There will be another terminal which may just be tied to the transformer can (the end of the secondary inside the can is also connected to it in this case) which is wired to the neutral. These are the primary coil terminals. Then at the top on the other side from the primary terminals are 3 other (secondary) terminals which are connected to the service entrance in your house. These are the two phases from the secondary winding with the middle one being the center tap point (neutral). At your service entrance the neutral will be bonded to a wire from an earthing rod and the neutral and two phases will enter your house. These are, as has been extensively discussed, approximately (depending on transformer and load balance) 180° out of phase with one another when measured WRT the neutral. From one of these to neutral you would measure 120*sqrt(2) volts at cycle peak. From the other to neutral you would measure -120*sqrt(2). Between the two phases you would measure (120 -(-120))*sqrt(2) = 240*sqrt(2).

In the Y connection the voltage from say A-N is 120*sqrt(2). From B-N it would be 120*sqrt(2)*(-cos(60°) + j*sin(60°)). The difference is

120*sqrt(2)*(1 -(-cos(60)) - j*sin(60))

= 120*sqrt(2)*(1.5 - j*sqrt(3)/2))

The j means this component is at right angles so the magnitude is

120*sqrt(2)*sqrt( (3/2)^2 + (sqrt(3)/2)^2) =

120*sqrt(2)*sqrt(9/3 + 3/4) = 120*sqrt(2)*sqrt(12/4) =

120*sqrt(2)*sqrt(3) = 208*sqrt(2) volts or 208 VRMS for 120 VRMS on a phase.

Your neighborhood will have the load distributed between the 3 pole phases but this is done by hooking one transformer to A, another to B another to C and so on.

I swore I was done with power but this is just so far off I can't let it stand.
 
I cannot believe how deep the grave is that has been dug for this thread.

Just goes to show how much BS can cover up other things.

Keep going guys. The thread is dead now anyway.

Un-Subscribed now.
 
first- there is really no such thing as "two phase" power (let me qualify that with; "commonly found around here in the US"). we have either single phase or three phase power. "two phase" is a misnomer when comparing two different single phase (120v) power feeds. the two lines coming in that make up 240v are actually from the same "phase" of the three-phase transformer.

Actually there is two phase power. I agree though it is relatively uncommon, perhaps even obsolete in the original form, and certainly not the 120/240V single phase, split voltage system common to households.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Back
Top