Stainless Conical Fermenter from Bitter Creek Homebrew: Review ala Boerderij Kabouter

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When racking from the conical to a corney, is it possible to never expose the beer to an uncontrolled environment?
I'm thinking
sanitize keg and purge with co2
pressurize conical
attach hose to valve on conical and attach other end to product side of keg
open pressure valve on keg and open valve on conical.

Am I missing something?

i do that now with carboys in to kegs.
i use a medical vacume pump and hook it to the IN on the keg and then hook OUT to my racking cane with a carboy cap
it works so damn good and is fast.
mvac2.jpg
 
When racking from the conical to a corney, is it possible to never expose the beer to an uncontrolled environment?
I'm thinking
sanitize keg and purge with co2
pressurize conical
attach hose to valve on conical and attach other end to product side of keg
open pressure valve on keg and open valve on conical.

Am I missing something?

yes it can be done if the conical can take pressure. I am sure even the cheap ones can made to accept enough pressure to transfer the beer however I don't think I would want to try carbing in one that isn't capable of handling 30 psi
 
Hi all,
First let me start off with saying that this reply is in NO way a "Flame" or meant to be "Snarky" or any other form of negativity. I just think that there are few things that should be pointed out as concerns where SS fermenters are concerned and a few things that caught my eye on these.

Everyone always get excited when they see the Stainless Steel (Myself included) but what I never see or hear anyone ask is what type is it? There are allot of different types of SS, some of them are good for the purpose of beer making and fermenting and some are not. I would be asking what type of SS is this made from and is there a mill certification available. The most common types of SS for food grade use are 304L & 316L and just to clarify there many different types of 304 & 316 SS out there. 304, 304L, 304LI, 304LS are just a few examples.

304 stainless is a low carbon (0.08% max) version of basic 18-8 also known as 302.

Type 304L has a carbon content of 0.03% or less. This alloy can be used in the as-welded condition without becoming susceptible to intergranular corrosion.

The reason this is important is that any time there is welding and polishing done on SS it changes the molecular make up of the metal and basically with out getting into a long boring topic, it brings the carbons to the surface of the welds heat affected zone and that is what causes your SS to rust or Rouge. In the pictures I can see light surface rust/rouge already starting to form as well there being lack of fusion/penetration (LF) (LP) in the welds from the polishing that has been done.
The next concern I have is I noticed allot of talk about the pressure rating of 35 PSI. Is this a Pressure rated vessel with an ASME cert saying it has been tested and can withstand that pressure with a +- safety factor? With the way the welds look I would be very careful about putting these under pressure with out something saying (on paper) they can handle the stated pressure. 35psi might not sound like much but if that fermenter ruptured @ 35psi it would be very bad maybe even life threatening. Just about everything we brew with is ASME rated (Corny kegs, beer kegs Co2, N2, Propane tanks/cylinders even beer bottles and cans) Like I said earlier not trying to bash anyone or thing just pointing out what I see and am concerned about. It is overall A very nice looking unit and I am not familiar with the other unit so its not a comparison. I would just hate to have someone spend allot of cash without asking a few questions and end up regretting it. Sorry if this was long winded !
 
Good points to bring up thantos.

The conical is stainless 304. Food grade and I cannot see any surface rust or rouge. Maybe I don't know what I am looking for with stainless, but I have studied metallurgy and worked in the field with hard facing alloys and there is no rust on the unit now. After a few batches I cannot speak to, but it is clean at the start...

I pressurized it up to 30 psi and everything was tight and easy. I don't have any paper cert. but maybe Rich can chime in???

BTW-

I have this thing full of beer now. I don't know what to take pics of yet, but if you have any questions about the brewing process with this, let me know.

It was easy to fill and taking samples is awesome! It is soooooo easy to just feel bored and go check the gravity. Nice!

I will be dumping trub for the first time in a few days and will take pics of that... ask questions or for pics if you can think of anything for me to document.
 
Good points to bring up thantos.

The conical is stainless 304. Food grade and I cannot see any surface rust or rouge. Maybe I don't know what I am looking for with stainless, but I have studied metallurgy and worked in the field with hard facing alloys and there is no rust on the unit now. After a few batches I cannot speak to, but it is clean at the start...

I pressurized it up to 30 psi and everything was tight and easy. I don't have any paper cert. but maybe Rich can chime in???

BTW-

I have this thing full of beer now. I don't know what to take pics of yet, but if you have any questions about the brewing process with this, let me know.

It was easy to fill and taking samples is awesome! It is soooooo easy to just feel bored and go check the gravity. Nice!

I will be dumping trub for the first time in a few days and will take pics of that... ask questions or for pics if you can think of anything for me to document.

I have attached a couple marked up pics that show examples. Thanks for the kind words I figured I would get flamed for sure!

CIMG2656.jpg


CIMG2657.jpg
 
For some reason I can't see you links, they say they go to nowhere???

No reason you should be flamed. Your comments add to the review and are good things to know.

What are the possible problems that could arise from the defects you see?
 
Justin,
I fixed the picture, so just look above for my comments. I will try to give you the quickie explanation of SS and Rouging and what it leads too.

Rouging is a thin film, usually reddish-brown or golden in color, of iron oxide or hydroxide, typically on stainless steels. The contrast between this film and shiny metal accentuates this aesthetics problem. The rouge film typically wipes off easily with a light cloth but it reforms while the process fluid is in contact with the stainless steel. This problem is most chronic in the pharmaceutical industry, large scale breweries on the interior surfaces of high purity water (i.e., water for injection, WFI, RO, and DI) distillation units, storage tanks, distribution systems (piping, valves, pump housings, fittings, etc.) and process vessels and fermenters.

As stated, rouge is ferric oxide (i.e., rust), but the film may contain not only iron but also chromium and nickel compounds in various forms, and hence the film may vary in color and tenacity. Rouging is experienced more on Type 304/304L stainless steel than on Type 316/316L, and less on electropolished surfaces than mechanically polished surfaces. Particles of rust can become dislodged and be dispersed throughout a piping distribution system, often collecting on in-line filters.

The passive layer on the surface of stainless steels can breakdown by the interaction with the liquid process, which is devoid of ionic species, leading to rouging, or rust blooms. The ionic pull of the water is strong enough to strip the protective chromium oxide off the steel surface.

Another process, which is more damaging, is the creation and propagation of pits. Non-metallic inclusions, such as sulfides, oxides, etc., are an inherent result of alloy production. They are dispersed throughout the metal and are highly susceptible to attack by aggressive environments. Typically these inclusions are dissolved in a particular solution or environment and leave a micro-void behind. This void becomes an occluded cell where solution chemistry can be different from the bulk solution. The corrosion products within the now formed pit spill out onto the bulk metal surface producing localized rouging or rust blooms.

Sorry for the long boring post, I work in the pharmaceutical industry and SS, rouging, piping and fermenters are my area of expertise I guess you could say. I do realize that there is a big difference between the two areas but at the same time there really isn't if you know what I mean. Anyway hope this helps.
Gene
 
So is there a way to "season" the stainless to re-passivate the surface? Or is it a chemical change from the welding and the surface is no longer the same stainless?

Would wiping it clean between uses keep the rouge at bay? I will be cleaning this with PBW, and sanitizing with an acid rinse (Star-san) between uses, if that will help?
 
So is there a way to "season" the stainless to re-passivate the surface? Or is it a chemical change from the welding and the surface is no longer the same stainless?

The change is not so much a chemical as it is a molecular one. The heating and fusing/welding of SS is really what breaks down the natural passivization of SS. It is through a chemical passivization or electropolishing that it can be restored.

Here are some good articles on the subject. But it is like all things there are many views on what is needed and correct for certain applications. You will see that even some of these articles contradict each other. I have to warn you now its pretty long and boring stuff ! ! ! LOL..... You have been warned.

How To Passivate Stainless Steel Parts: MMSOnline.com

Passivating and Electropolishing Stainless Steel Parts

12045. Passivation of 304L Stainless Steel Welds

Keeping stainless steels stainless: How important is passivation for SS?

Would wiping it clean between uses keep the rouge at bay? I will be cleaning this with PBW, and sanitizing with an acid rinse (Star-san) between uses, if that will help?

Yes and no, the bad news is that once Rouging starts it will darn near never go away, unless treated with a very aggressive Chemical Passivation or Electropolishing. These are the two best methodes of removing the rouge film from a SS surface. The most two common reason for rouging to begin is;
1). From the Heat Affected Zone of the weld never having a passivization done after the welding process is complete.
2). The use of carbon tools for machining (mills & lathes using normal carbon bits), cutting (hack saws, band saws, jig saws, hole saws, all use carbon blades) and polishing (sand paper and abrasives are very high in carbon). Everything tool that touches the SS leaves a signature trace of carbon behind which is where it starts.

There are specialized tools for working with SS that have No or Minimal carbon in them but they are very expensive and really drive up the cost of SS fabrication.

Hope all this helps.

Gene
 
thantos - interesting info. The real question is based upon what you say, would you buy this conical?
 
First things first..... I would need to know the cost of these. That would be a major factor ! ! ! Because to be honest I could probably build one in my shop for just the cost of materials.

Then....

My immediate answer is as a HOME BREWER no. I actually have a SS fermenter I am trying to sell because I never use it. Nothing against SS fermenters I just have found I prefer my 8 gallon glass carboys.

Now if I were to be doing this on a larger scale or going to open my own Micro brew Pub (like I had intended at one time, but got beat to the punch) Yes I would. I think I would address the quality issues with the welding before I purchased though.

Gene
 
I will take some pictures after I transfer to kegs and clean the fermenter. Maybe that will give us a better idea of these rouge spots.

Anyway, is there anything anyone would like to see, or perhaps a more detailed review of any particular part or process?
 
I just used the bottom dump last week and have pictures but not yet uploaded. I will get them up as soon as I can.

It works awesome. This thing is sooo awesome to use!!!! I need one. Anyway, the dump went great, I had a ton of compacted yeast and trub and it flowed out very easily. I didn't buy any extra fittings and just used the 5/8" nipple that was already installed but it worked great. Easy to dump and easy to take a clean sample with the rotating racking arm.

I will be buying some more kegs in the coming week or two, and then I should be able to transfer out of the conical and see how the cleaning goes. At that point I think this review will be done.

If anyone has any questions, please ask away.

So far, I would purchase this conical over a Blichmann if they were the same price. The larger capacity, ability to pressurize, and general construction seem better to me and tilt the scales IMO.
 
Ready to dump some yeast:
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CIMG2998.JPG


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The process way very easy. The thick trub flowed nice and slow, it was easy to see when the trub ended and the lighter colored yeast started flowing, and again it was easy to see when the yeast cleared out and the beer was flowing.

What an awesome process and it took all of 6 minutes! I am in love with this thing.
 
I think Rich is waiting to here the full results and feedback to this review. I think he has all the details hashed out with the manufacturer and just needs to make the business decision to go forward or not.

The only feature I would want added would be a thermowell so I wouldn't have to add a weldless one.

This thing is the cat's meow.
 
What is the point of being all stainless when the beer passes through brass at the end.
Brass contains lead = not good.

Forrest
 
Seems a little silly to use such a nice, large, expensive, full-port valve and then reduce it down to a 1/2"(?) hose. But if it flows, it flows. Thanks for the review.

The dump port on my conical project is a 1" pipe connected to a 1" ball valve. From there, I haven't decided what I'll connect for harvesting yeast.
 
What is the point of being all stainless when the beer passes through brass at the end.
Brass contains lead = not good.

Forrest

That is easily changeable and according to previous comments from Rich the brass elbow is not included.

Also, after 2010 it is doubtful you'll see much "leaded" brass for potable water use because of new laws on brass content in California.
 
Yes yes. There is a brass fitting on there. Rich had it on there for some other testing he was doing and I just left it because I am lazy. If I was using this full time it would have a 1.5" stainless TC fitting to connect to my system.
 
I have a question about attenuation in that bad boy. On some of the yeast that flocc out a lot quicker will they be forced into that steep cone and become unable to continue to work?

a 60 degree cone is ideal and that looks to be a bit smaller. My 14.5 conical is half as tall.

curious.
 
I too am curious about the price.

I am also wondering if the pictures are of a prototype. I've seen a number of beautiful hand crafted prototypes that led to less beautiful production runs.
 
What is the point of being all stainless when the beer passes through brass at the end.
Brass contains lead = not good.

Forrest

The key thing is that the brass is on the down stream side of the valve so it is not in constant contact with the product. Also there is NO lead in brass! A very common miss conception. Brass piping, valves and fittings have been used for hundreds of years with no problems!

From Wikipedia,
Brass is any alloy of copper and zinc; the proportions of zinc and copper can be varied to create a range of brasses with varying properties.[1] In comparison, bronze is principally an alloy of copper and tin.[2] Despite this distinction, some types of brasses are called bronzes.
 
Also there is NO lead in brass! A very common miss conception.

No, I don't think this is a misconception.

If you read further down on the wiki you linked to - Brass - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Plumbing. To enhance the machinability of brass, lead is often added."

Which links to this CA bill about lead content going from 8% to 0.25% - AB 1953 Assembly Bill - Bill Analysis

Right now 8% lead is "lead free", which I suppose is true for *very* large values of free.
 
Say, what gauge is the steel on the cone and the steel on the sidewall (in case someone got ants in their pants to add a glycol jacket)? And is there any possibility of sourcing a 1bbl size?

Gordie
 
What about adding a spray ball in the lid for recirculating cleaner or sanitizer? Did Rich ever visit that idea from a previous post.
 
That is easily changeable and according to previous comments from Rich the brass elbow is not included.

Also, after 2010 it is doubtful you'll see much "leaded" brass for potable water use because of new laws on brass content in California.

I realize that you can change it to stainless parts.

The brass parts won't be made in California. They are made in China where they don't care about such things.
 
Say, what gauge is the steel on the cone and the steel on the sidewall (in case someone got ants in their pants to add a glycol jacket)? And is there any possibility of sourcing a 1bbl size?

Gordie

I do not know the gauge but it is substantial. You could definitely add a cooling jacket if you were so inclined. The manufacturer does make all sizes, so maybe if this one comes out and goes well, Rich would look into other sizes??? I don't know.

I noticed the fissure right off the bat, also. That looks like a problem.
CIMG2656.jpg

What kind of problem? Harboring bacteria?

Where is that picture in relation to the rest of the fermenter?

David :)

This is on the inside of the fermenter at the leg weld.

What about adding a spray ball in the lid for recirculating cleaner or sanitizer? Did Rich ever visit that idea from a previous post.

You could easily add a weldless one, I don't think Rich would add it welded in a stock, not enough people have that capability. IMHO

I realize that you can change it to stainless parts.

The brass parts won't be made in California. They are made in China where they don't care about such things.

The brass elbow are not normally on there. It was just for some random stuff Rich was testing and I was too lazy to swap it out. My bad. But yes, China is not as eco friendly as we are, the brass and bronze that we use in our plumbing has surface lead. That is why it is always a good idea to pickle your fittings before brewing use.

Keep the questions coming guys!
 
Yes, harboring bacteria, like a scratch in a plastic bucket. I'm sure that those problems can be addressed before manufacturing starts. I see a lot of prototypes/samples having issues. The fermenters look beautiful.
 
I realize that you can change it to stainless parts.

The brass parts won't be made in California. They are made in China where they don't care about such things.


It did not and will not come with any brass.
I just had it handy so I used it for testing as others have already mentioned.
The other minor issues are eing addresses and I hope to have the final samples in route in the next few weeks.
 
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