'Nieuw Bruin' using 100% Brett L. or B.?

I'm thinking about doing a quick oud bruin in the fashion of oldsock's (see: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/07/sour-old-ale-quick-oud-bruin.html) but using a different method of souring and funkifying it. :fro:

Here are my thoughts, crazy as they may be (and probably are).
1. I want to try using acid malt as the primary (and only) 'souring' element. Quick, easy, and one dimensional though it is, I hope that by fermenting with 100% Brett, the end result with be a bit more complex. Of course using it in large quantities lowers the mash ph. How low is too low? I figure Brett. loves acid, so maybe this is ok?
2. I want to ferment with 100% Brettanomyces B. or L. I have no experience with either, so I don't know what would be more appropriate to an 'oud bruin' style beer.

Here's a stab at a recipe (and a link to the hopville page) OG: 1.056

Grain:
42% 5 lb. 0 oz. Munich Malt
25% 3 lb. 0 oz. American Two-row Pale
17% 2 lb. 0 oz. Acid Malt (too much?)
8% 1 lb. 0 oz. Crystal 60L
4% 0 lb. 8 oz. Chocolate Malt
4% 0 lb. 8 oz. Aromatic Malt

Hops:
1 oz. E.K. Goldings at 60 min.

Yeast:
Brettanomyces (B. or L. ?)

I figure this could be ready to drink in a matter of 1-2 months.

Mash Temperature
Should I mash at a regular temperature, or mash a little higher? If I want this to have some body, but not at the expense of finishing fast, so I should mash at 154 right? That way the Brett. won't take forever chewing through the complex sugars?

Fermentation Temperature
I seem to recall that Brett. is more temperature tolerant than Sacc. Would it result in off flavors if i fermented this around 80-84 like a saison?

Alternative to acid malt
Is 2 lb. of acid malt going to significantly sour this beer? Should I do more? Alternatively, if you guys think using acid malt at this quantity is going to screw up my mash ph resulting in lower conversion, I thought I could do 2 days of just Lacto and then pitch the Brett., thus turning it into a berliner weisse style brew. It should still finish in around 3 months this way, so maybe it's not such a bad move?

Technically, if you intend to brew a "'oud bruin' style beer", then no brett at all is the way to go. If you want to follow your concept (and I think its a fine one), then I would use Brett B, myself. Wyeast Brett L will give you some tart cherry and regular brett character, while white labs Brett L will give horse and smoke.

A primary ferment with brett will probably finish under 2 months, but you'll need to pitch a large starter. Smack packs don't have anywhere close to enough yeast. Additionally, Brett will only ferment down to 1.010 or so when used alone. Brett character changes when using it as a lone yeast, as well. I have found that B starts spicy/earthy, C starts tropical/citrus, and Wyeast L give more cherry. All of those will pick up more funk the longer they're aged.

As to the level of tartness you'll get from 2lb of acid malt, it's hard to say. People's perceptions are all over the map. I would say that for me it would not be the level of tartness I was looking for, but then I think that I would like Monk's Cafe a bit better with a bit more tartness.

I agree with dwarven stout on the amount of acid malt that people use being all over the place. I think that you would be ok with that percent and it will help the brett out by acidifying your wort. Your mash profile seems good to me.

I am a big fan of Wyeast Brett. L. and recommend going that direction. Dwarven Stout's description of the character of each strain is spot on in my experience as well, so go with what ever description seems right for you. I think that the choco. malt would do well with the cherry characteristic of lambicus.

For Brett choice I think the Brett L would be a great choice as I prefer the Oud Bruins with that cherry pie flavor. But dwaren explained them well so you pick.

As for acid malt I have read mixed reviews. I have used it up to 5% in a Saison to both add tartness and adjust my mash ph. (And I like what it did to the beer) Ithaca Brewing talks about using 15%-25% in their Brute on a Brewing Network podcast. You will need to plug your water and malt bill into a water calculator like ezwatercalc to know how much acid malt you can add to the mash. The remaining amount will then need to be added after conversion so the mash pH does not go too low.

As for pH level for Brett I would recommend checking Chad Y Brettanomyces Project as he has some numbers in there. Without checking I think the Brett won't have a problem as long as you give it a nice big pitch like dwaren stout said.

And I have no clue what fermenting in the 80s will do with Brett. Not sure if I would ferment that high since you aren't looking for that many esters in an Oud Bruin.

And I also really like Special B in my Oud Bruins.

My only concern with going with the acid malt souring is that it will screw with the starch conversion. This isn't a big deal for Ithaca since they are giving the Brett lots of time to work on those complex sugars, but with a quick 100% Brett fermentation you may end up with an overly-sweet beer. At the least I would wait until after the rest of the mash converts before adding the acid malt (maybe in two additions) to get as much fermentable sugar as you can.

The Lacto-first pitch might be a good way to go, although commercial Lacto is so difficult to work with (go super low on the hopping, ~5 IBUs if you go this route).

Good luck, interested to hear how this one comes out!

I recently did something a bit similar, but instead of using acid malt I used a sour mash for tartness. Then I added a big starter of Brett L (wyeast), and after that fermented out, I added 2 lbs/gallon of sour cherries.

Fast forward two months and there is a nice level of tartness, good cherry flavor, but very little, if any, "brett character". It's a decent beer, but if I would try a different (maybe multiple) brett strain(s) next time.

Update on my post above: The "brett character" is starting to show up now that I've bottled. It's subtle, but it adds a nice dimension to round out the flavors.

Thanks for all the advice, this is very helpful.

I'm going to go with Wyeast Brett. L since it sounds delicious. I think I will also mash the acid malt separately and combine it when I sparge so that it doesn't mess with the conversion of the other malts. I would think I might get some extra tannin extraction due to the low PH of the sparge... is this something I should worry about? Should I also sparge the acid malt separately?

rorygilmore: how much acid malt did you use in your recipe? How's the tartness?

Lower sparge pH is what you want. Higher pH is when it can start extracting tannins. I'm actually positioning myself for a sweet high quality pH meter for my birthday so I can track pH on my brew process and beers.

scone said:

rorygilmore: how much acid malt did you use in your recipe? How's the tartness?

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I actually didn't use any acid malt. To sour, I mashed as normal, allowed the temperature to cool to 135 degrees, then added a chilled two liter bottle of carbonated water (which then dropped the mash temp to the mid 120's) and a few ounces of uncrushed grain to my 5 gallon cooler and let it sit overnight (approx. 20 hours). The carbonated water was added to purge the headspace of O2 in the mash ton, and I think that worked well as the wort was pretty clean smelling even after souring overnight. I would say the sourness is somewhere between moderate and moderately strong.

Neat idea on the carbonated water. I have never heard that one before, but the theory makes good sense.

So I finally brewed this yesterday. I changed up the recipe a bit to use maris otter instead of 2-row, and reduced the munich malt but upped the acid malt a bit. I wanted to use the Wyeast Brett. L. but it wasn't in stock at my LHBS so I used the White Labs Brett. L. instead. I'd have preferred the Wyeast given what you guys are saying about the flavor profiles, but I didn't really want to have something shipped to me when I can buy locally. I'm also impatient. I reduced the hops to 10 IBUs since I've done some more "bitter" beers with all Brett. and I didn't like the result.

The final recipe looks like this:
Nieuw Bruin OG: 1.058

Grain:
43% 5 0 Maris Otter
22% 2 8 Acid Malt (mashed separately)
22% 2 8 Munich Malt
4% 0 8 Crystal 60L
4% 0 8 Aromatic Malt
4% 0 8 Chocolate Malt

Hops:
0.6 oz. Kent Goldings at 60 min. (5.9%AA)

Yeast:
White Labs Brett. Lambicus

I made a 1L starter on a stir plate 24 hours before pitching and tossed the whole thing in there. Brett. L. is sloooow to get going. I barely perceived a cloudiness to the starter even after 24 hours of continuous stirring.

I'll post again when I sample the beer. Right now it's sitting at room temperature (80F) with no real outward signs of fermentation after 24 hours. I got the wort down to 95F with my chiller (it was 101 outside when I brewed), and pitched at that temperature. I figured it wouldn't kill the yeast. I placed the fermenter in an ice bath and brought it down to room temperature within a few hours. I'm sure the yeast weren't happy but they seem to have survived.

One thing I noticed about acid malt... I mashed the 2.5 lbs. of acid malt separately so as to not screw the pH of the rest of the mash. I did 1.5 qts./lb grist ratio for the acid mash, and the stuff instantaneously turned the consistency of oatmeal. It was really bizarre to watch. Was it a mistake to get this stuff milled? I did an iodine test on it after 60 minutes at 149, and it was NOT converted. Then again it was impossible to get a liquid sample from it since it was a goopy oatmeal consistency so who knows... Is this normal for acid malt? I can't seem to find any info about its diastatic power, does it even have any?

EDIT: it occurs to me that the acid malt mash could have such a low pH as to prevent the amylase enzymes from working, but I don't know what pH that is.

wild brews pg. 108 says brett prefers a low ph but it also ceases to reproduce below 3.4. That being said, Vinnie Cilurzo also talks about the fact that a larger brett population won't make a beer with more brett character. A small amount can give more somehow.

It takes a long time for Brett to eat up those sugars so I'd second the concerns for sweetness.

Just thought I'd post an update. I bottled today after about a month in the primary at room temperature (anywhere between 82 and 72 ambient). The beer finished at 1.024 which I find quite high so it's entirely possible that its not actually finished and that I've just made some bottle bombs*. However, my experience with 100% Brett. beers has been that they finish fast so hopefully it's done. I have no idea why it would have finished so high except that perhaps the large amount of acid malt either (1) really slowed down the yeast (i.e. it's not actually finished) or (2) left a bunch of unfermentables that even Brett. can't chew through? In any case the bottles are being stored in black trash bags so if they explode it's not the end of the world. The beer looked pretty normal but had a bunch of these little white flakes (looked like bits of shaved coconut but even more white than that). Perhaps that was the beginning of a pelicle? I should have taken a picture.

It tasted great though. Perhaps a tad too sweet, but less cloyingly sweet than Duchesse de Bourgogne. Very nice level of tartness, not funky at all really but I can taste some smoky cherry thing going on that has to be from the Brett. I'll post again in a few weeks when it's carbed.

* chance of bombs definitely not helped by the fact that I stuck my entire unsanitized arm in the beer to fix a leaky bottling spigot. Yarrr.

I find those white flakes tend to be an indication of lacto but it could be brett.

If you continue to get fermentation in the bottles they probably won't explode for a long time unless they get very hot or experience massive temperature swings over the course of a few hours. Basically, anything that causes the beer to release the CO2 into the headspace. If you keep the beers cool or at a constant in the 70s you shouldn't have a problem for months and months. However I would take as much precaution as possible.

Would you suggest chilling/checking the bottles at about 2 months as a precaution? Or chill one every month until your carbonation taste is acheived then push all of it into fridge to make the brett go to sleep?

First impressions.

I cracked a bottle after 2 weeks to check for carbonation levels. Definitely not quite carbed yet, but it's getting there. Weak bubbling, no head whatsoever, which could be the lack of carbonation, but also could be something else since I've never gotten any head retention on the other 100% brett beers either.

I like it. The smokey/cherry hints sadly seem to have disappeared, but the beer has a very nice level of very clean tartness with perhaps a tiny hint of spice. I'm not sure if any more acidity would improve it at all. It reminds me of a fuller-bodied and more complex berliner weisse but i like it better than any commercial berliners I've had (with the one exception of the new belgium imperial berliner). I'm not positive since I haven't had one of those in a long time, but i think this ended up somewhat similar in style. The bitterness seems about perfect and the beer is really quite refreshing. Not really sweet at all (strange given the 1.024 FG). This isn't funky (it's very cleanly sour) at all but I'm happy with it. I'm stoked to see how it will change in the next few weeks. :fro:

I sort of wonder whether all of the tartness can be attributed to the 2 1/2 lbs. of acid malt, or if there was a lacto infection going on as well... I reuse the same plastic bucket for all my sour beers and I had just transferred a lacto beer out of the bucket the same day I brewed this. It had sanitizer sitting in it for a few hours before I added the wort though. Perhaps the white labs brett. l had a little lacto in it? Those white flakes were definitely suspicious.

Any updates?

Yes, in short, I do not recommend this recipe.

I haven't been drinking them b/c I don't really like them. The "horsey" funk was subtle, and unfortunately faded very quickly. What's left if a "cidery" tasting sour beer. It's ok, but I don't care for it. I open one every month or so, but so far no change for the better. It tasted best straight out of the fermenter.

scone said:

Yes, in short, I do not recommend this recipe.

I haven't been drinking them b/c I don't really like them. The "horsey" funk was subtle, and unfortunately faded very quickly. What's left if a "cidery" tasting sour beer. It's ok, but I don't care for it. I open one every month or so, but so far no change for the better. It tasted best straight out of the fermenter.

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dont give up on it, I had a brett L beer that was funky early on, I thought it had hit its peak around 1-1.5yrs in the bottle, then I opened one the other day and it is an explosion of tropical fruit and cherry

That's unfortunate. I just did a wit sort of in this fashion only I did a lactic fermentation. I have a friend looking to do a lacto ferment and primary with brett for a flandersesque red. This may be the way to go instead of acidulated malt.

On the side of acidulated malt souring I did a saison with 25% acid malt. The sourness is there but tasting the warm samples I don't know how it'll be. I am bottling that beer tomorrow and it will be a blended between two fermentations. One got dupont saison yeast and the other got ECY03 which is a brett blend. The two will be blended together for a total of like 9 gallons going into bottles. I hope it's good enough that I won't have a problem with drinking this beer through the summer.

Hey smokinghole, any updates on that 25% acid malt beer? In the interest of science.

(I ask since I just tasted my crappy nieuw bruin again and it seems like it's getting more and more tart. I'm suspecting some lacto activity, but perhaps it's just an artifact of the brett drying the beer slowly and allowing the acidity to assert itself. I have no idea. It's still not good though.)

The 25% acid malt beer turned out OK. I drink it happily and friends drink it happily but I won't be going that route again. It's sour but not SOUR like the mixed culture fermentation I did with pedio/lacto/brett on a saison. It lacks the sour bite and has more of a weak yogurt like acidity..