Yet another brewtroller build -but this one is mine

As part of my brewhouse build I am updating my brewery as well. I am starting out converting to electric, then slowly convert to (the dream) fully automated including transfer to fermenter and fermenter control. I am working on rough plumbing diagrams right now while I get the stand welded and the basics on order (brewtroller dx1 module, enclosure, elements, ssr's, etc.)

First draft on plumbing:


Basic 60A eHERMS keggle system, blackheartish... , 2 pumps, CFC output. Plumbed to water inlet, CFC flows into septic line. Batch sparge, recirculate boil to sterilize CFC, probably will not recirculate HLT since I would believe convection in a keggle would maintain homogenous temperatures in that small an area, but am prepared to redesign if experience tells me I am wrong. I would like water inlet to all 3 kettles so I could potentially program a "clean cycle" type recipie. MLT *may* end up direct fired NG if i can get a plumber to extend my line a few feet for a decent price, or I can add a 3rd element on 60A service and just make sure only 2 are ever on at the same time.

With those familliar with brewtroller workings, I am wanting to possibly extend it with a RGBIO8 module to help control a cold room/fermentation as well, but that is down the road.

If there are any problems with my plumbing, I would love the feedback, or any clarification/problems with my dreams.... Just let me down slowly

Dr D,

COngrats on starting your re-build! A couple of comments from a recent completed build. I do see alot heat stratification in the HLT if it is not recirculation. Depending if you use the smart herms logic, it could really keep the BT searching for the correct temp.
You don't need water input to each kettle. In my system, I can direct water to any kettle already using the piping and manually selecting valves/pumps.
Why do you need the MLT to be heated if you're using HERMS to maintain temps?
I was trying to step through the processes with your valve layout and was a little confused. Maybe go through the steps and visualize which valves are active and what path the wort is taking.

Concerning the fermentation control...you can only run either Bretroller or Fermtroller software...not both.

You can PM me with specific questions if you like.

S-

One question can you use the smart HERMS logic in a RIMS set up?

No. The smart HERMS dynamically sets the HLT temp based on what it calculates is needed to achieve the desired temp. With rims you would just use Mash heat profile.

psbuckland said:

Dr D,

COngrats on starting your re-build! A couple of comments from a recent completed build. I do see alot heat stratification in the HLT if it is not recirculation. Depending if you use the smart herms logic, it could really keep the BT searching for the correct temp.

Click to expand...

Good to note, will make adjustments

You don't need water input to each kettle. In my system, I can direct water to any kettle already using the piping and manually selecting valves/pumps.

Click to expand...

Duh, that makes perfect sense.

Why do you need the MLT to be heated if you're using HERMS to maintain temps?

Click to expand...

The thing I like most about my 3 tier direct fire system is heating HLT and strike water at the same time. I keep hearing "use BK it heat strike water" but that doesnt work on double batch days. I was planning to have element/fire on only to heat strike and or cleaning water, and never come on again.

I was trying to step through the processes with your valve layout and was a little confused. Maybe go through the steps and visualize which valves are active and what path the wort is taking.

Click to expand...

I will make adjustments from prior sugestions and come back with a new diagram with walk through

Concerning the fermentation control...you can only run either Bretroller or Fermtroller software...not both.

Click to expand...

I was afraid of that but wanted to try if I could... well, the walk in cooler is a ways away on starting, let alone automating, so I can always get a little BX module at that point.

Thank you much for the feedback, I will get some drawings done probably on Monday... This evening and weekend will be focused on plumbing and framing the floor for my brew house!

PS do you have a plumbing diagram?

Yep. It is still in work. Ill post it today once I get home.

Ok, here is go #2 with steps.











Lemme know how this looks. Thanks!

When you use the fly sparge logic do you need to have the pressure sensors?

For the auto fly sparge...yes. Here is what I use for piping. I'm still experimenting with different configurations.

View attachment DiabloPiping.pdf

How does it slow the sparge so you get good extraction? I also don't get how you slow the wort down to chill it?

NuttyProf21 said:

How does it slow the sparge so you get good extraction? I also don't get how you slow the wort down to chill it?

Click to expand...

I have a manual valve on the input to the kettle (the round dot) and on the output of the chiller.

Dr_Deathweed! How's it going man? I fell off of the homebrew wagon for a while, but I've been back on it and find myself in a very similar state of the union as you are in.... I recently sold my "BrewFlex" and am planning out a bigger electric system. Almost too many options!

Had one question on your plans.... I had looked at 60 amp also, but learned (at least according to Kal's website) that there is not a 60 amp "certified" outlet/plug combination. Did you find a solution for that? If I'm going to be buying a $120 circuit breaker, the 50 amp is pretty much the same price as the 60, so I'd like to do that, but was derailed by the plug/outlet.

Hope all has been well with ya!
Jason

Jas! Good to hear from you! We will have to work out a time to come out and check out the new place when things get progressing!

As far as the 60A thing, I am building right next to the 100A drop into the barn where the 60A breaker will be installed, then running 4AWG THHN the 10 or so feet through conduit to my control panel where it will be distributed through a breaker system into my 25A element circuts and a 15A "everything else" circut. Still working on panel details, have a friend in a machine shop that may be building me a custom box that will be partly inset in the wall so all wiring will be run to outlets behind the brewstand where I can plug in elements/pumps/temp probes/valves/etc. Still working on details, but this is the plan so far. I will modify as my brewhouse build continues here.

I have a couple electritian friends coming out as well to see if I can get 150A or 200A service out there (I think the wiring that is run can handle it but would like an expert double check) since the cool room and a second barn/man cave will be running off this service as well. But I am talking more "dream" stage and not foreseeable future on those projects.

Oh wow... A new brew barn and got married... How long was I out? Congrats on both counts! The barn looks like a fun project!!

Did some simplification, will do a cheap afgahnastanimation slideshow with process when I get a little more time. Basicaly removed a couple valves and water directly into MLT since I can switch some valves and get the same thing.

Would this be a decent setup for the power into my control panel?


or would running a NO E stop button in paralell with a couple 1Kohm Resistors to trip that 1A breaker be a more ideal setup. If what I have above is appropriate, it seems simplified to me and allows a keyed on/off to the main power plus an E-Stop that will cut all power at the panel without going back to the main GFCI breaker.

Very rough schematic of element control:



Did not draw neutral or ground lines to keep clutter down, of course they will all be connected. All switches will be on 12V DC from my DC power supply, extra relay for MLT element since that one will be manual most of the time for strike water, then never on again. Leaving the auto avenue open however for when I get playing with the brewtroller.

A couple of notes and only my suggestions.
Regarding E-stop - If you hit e-stop at anytime...then everything gets powered down. Sure the BT will reboot to the last step and pick up. I liked the idea of having the e-stop only the things that are higher power. (ie. pumps/elements) I have mine wired to when I hit the e-stop or the BT senses no heartbeat, elements and pumps go black. It came in handy on the first brew day when I didn't clamp a hose well enough and hot wort started flying across the basement. One hit of the e-stop and it "stopped". Your way would achieve the same end result though..so only a suggestion.

Everything else looked good, but I'm gonna question the element in the MLT again. If your element in your HLT is sufficient, many guys are successful with heating strike water in the MLT by running it through the HERMS coil while heating sparge water. Might be something to thing about. I would hate to image cleaning yet another grain laden object in the MLT.

Looks like your off to a good start!

S-

PS -

Thank you as always for your informed feedback. The MLT element will probably not be in my first iteration of my build, and if I like not having it, then it will never be added. As far as cleanup, I was planning on a tip dump setup for boil and MLT, and I have a mid pressure powerwasher with a trench drain to just pressure wash everything off at the end of the day.

I love the idea of keeping the BT powered and cutting everything else with the E-stop, thank you! What about keeping the key switch for a main throw to all power, for shutting everything down at the end of a brew day for example, then E-stop for just high powered elements? I will get back to the drawing board and see if I can come up with an example.

Edit: Like this -

I think it's a good idea that the BrewTroller can turn the power off.

To me, the idea of leaving mains power on to the BrewTroller seems against the purpose of an E-stop.

Why not have a battery backup, or even just a big capacitor? The microcontroller doesn't take much power. You can even have it enter sleep mode, so it uses even less, and wake up when there is some user input.

Crazy idea, added level of complication, and waaaaaay over kill on design, but if we just stuck with basics I would still be doing stovetop extract with a 6gal "ale pail" bucket in the closet....

For the double batch day:


Will probably not go this route, but a fun idea on paper. For those back to back brew days on a HERMS setup (at least on my plumbing design) is you can either circulate the BK and chiller, or the MLT, not both. By adding the RIMS tube you can mash one batch while boiling/chilling a second. The other option is a third pump and stick with HERMS instead of having both HERMS and RIMS... though with the RIMS I get my 3rd element that I am stubbornly holding on to Wistful planing while I am at work waiting on my orders to ship

Dr_Deathweed said:

PS -

Thank you as always for your informed feedback. The MLT element will probably not be in my first iteration of my build, and if I like not having it, then it will never be added. As far as cleanup, I was planning on a tip dump setup for boil and MLT, and I have a mid pressure powerwasher with a trench drain to just pressure wash everything off at the end of the day.

I love the idea of keeping the BT powered and cutting everything else with the E-stop, thank you! What about keeping the key switch for a main throw to all power, for shutting everything down at the end of a brew day for example, then E-stop for just high powered elements? I will get back to the drawing board and see if I can come up with an example.

Edit: Like this -

Click to expand...

Oscsys has an E Stop board with two relays so that you can turn off two different voltages with the E stop button. When you press the button, it pauses the Brewtroller and closes the two relays. The board also monitors the heartbeat of the Brewtroller and will close the relays and trigger an alarm in the event that the Brewtroller stops responding. I am using one on my build. One of the relays will close the contactors controlling my elements and the other relays will close the relays controlling the pumps.

NB those relays are only for turning off contactor coils, not the power themselves, because they are only rated 10A.

I don't know why the Brewtroller software doesn't use the watchdog alarm that is on the AVR chip. It would be simple enough to have the chip close itself down and thereby turn off the main power relay. No need to have external monitoring.

Mb2658 said:

Oscsys has an E Stop board with two relays so that you can turn off two different voltages with the E stop button. When you press the button, it pauses the Brewtroller and closes the two relays. The board also monitors the heartbeat of the Brewtroller and will close the relays and trigger an alarm in the event that the Brewtroller stops responding. I am using one on my build. One of the relays will close the contactors controlling my elements and the other relays will close the relays controlling the pumps.

Click to expand...

I was looking at that, but it just seemed to me another gadget when all I really need to do is turn the durn thing off if things go to hell With those more knowledgeable in using the brewtroller, if things stop working or you dont get the "heartbeat", if you have a relay wired as NO, will it open if previously closed, or stay in whatever state it was in when brewtroller goes dead?

I will already be getting the quad relay board for pumps and the like, and will have an open relay there to use as drawn above. What I was thinking when I drew that was not only would I have to have the brewtroller on, but it would have to be functioning to have power to my main elements, and would still have a manual override if things go to hell. Please correct me if mistaken, if the brewtroller E stop module is just that much better, I will get it, but to me it almost seemed overkill for a kill switch. Thanks to all!

I think that the main benefit of the E stop is that it will pause the program when pressed, allow you to fix it and then resume as opposed to powering off the entire system which will lose the program upon restart. Now depending on how you have your panel configured, as long as you have the DX1 powered independent of whatever you are killing, you should be able to pause it. I decided to go with the E stop board when I purchased my DX1 because I liked the integration and figured that it was worth using. I guess time will tell.

I do like the idea of a separate power supply to the microcontroller. It would work well with 2 boxes, a power box containing the relays and breakers and a low voltage box with the switches and displays.

Battery back up would have the additional advantage that if there was a power interruption for any reason (including the 50A spa panel breaker tripping) the status would not be lost.

It could be very simple to implement, just 3xAA and a diode.

Doing some online searching while I have been laid up sick, it looks like these parts should work, but would like to double check with resident gurus:

Quad relay board:
http://www.uxcell.com/blue-srd12vdcslc-channel-12v-high-level-power-relay-module-board-p-234018.html

Element contactor:
http://www.uxcell.com/110v-50hz-coil-28aac1-pole-3no-660v-35mm-mounting-rail-contactor-p-256168.html

Main power contactor:
http://www.uxcell.com/110v-50hz-coil-65aac1-three-pole-normal-open-660v-contactor-p-256082.html

I use uxcell a lot.Personally I'd get an optoisolated relay board. The main contactor looks good. 2 poles should be enough for the element contactor but that's a good price. I was thinking of using the thinner CT1-25 ones.

Thanks alien, i was looking at the thinner 2P contactors as well, but could not pass up the uxcell price... I think I have room for everything, if not my box is being custom made by a friend of mine, so until then I have a prototype box in the workings. With all the Chinese parts, I would like to introduce everybody to Pho Pan (short for phony panel before anyone thinks I am a complete racist)


Thats just a trial layout with a few buttons and switches, the friend making my box says he frequently gets plastic panels like this all askew and gets told to "straighten it up and make it look good" I am still compiling parts and am waiting on my din rails and bus bars to come in before I get the innards together.



Meanwhile the brewhouse build is progressing.

Mwahhh haaa haaa!!!