Control Panel Design

So I need to make an E Rig as cheap as possible because im on a tight budget. Ive been searching for a while for a wiring diagram to fit my design need an have only come up with diagrams that partially fit what im looking for.

Im going with a 2 element system. Original i just wanted a manual setup but thinking about going PID plus SSR and am considering this panel design: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/simple-control-panel-wiring-help-216604/

With a manual switch to toggle between HLT and Boil Kettle similar to what Kal has:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/selector-switch-automatically-turns-off-when-powers-cut-203034/

My question is can i wire two elements in to the panel and set the toggle switch in between the two to select which element is hot when i choose. I know Ill have to change over the thermocouple or switch to manual mode to run the bk. Just looking for some info or a link to a setup like im looking for.

Thanks

Rock Chalk

Chris

Chris,

How about this?
[Click on the image to see a full scale diagram that is printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17") ]



It uses a single PID and one temp probe that stays in the HLT to regulate its temp.
The boil is controlled by the PID in manual mode by controlling the percent of power applied.

P-J

PJ
Thanks, that is awesome and i was meaning to e-mail you because know what your doing. I think ive seen this diagram in other threads and the only question that i have (I forgot to include this as i was enjoying a few India Browns that hit 1.078 OG) how would this work with the power supply i have ran to my garage. It is 10/3 30A and i believe it doesn't have a neutral line. Isnt this diagram for 10/4? My neighbor is an electrician and is willing to help so im not worried about killing myself. Just want to make sure everything meshes properly and there are no surprises halfway through.

Thanks

Rock Chalk

Chris

Chris,

Easy solution for you. Go to HomeDepot and buy this GE 50A 240V Spa Panel GFCI for $49.00 and then wire it up this way:



Use a 3 wire dryer cord for its input and then install a 4 wire outlet for the output to your brewery. The panel will then provide your GFCI protection & the mains panel will provide the 30A breaker for your rig. Plus you also develop the equipment ground while doing it without having to rewire your house. Another added benefit is the panel is a lot cheaper than just buying a 30A GFCI for your mains panel.

Hope this helps.

Edit: You might want to get this Leviton 2716 30-Amp, 125/250 Volt, Flanged Outlet to mount in the spa panel.

I got to thinking more about the outlet I suggested in my last post.That one is very expensive, There are lots of other options for the outlet:
Leviton 278-PM 30Amp, 125/250Volt, NEMA 14-30R, Panel Mounting Receptacle

Leviton 071-00278-000 4 Wire 30 Amp 250 Volt Flush Mount Dryer Receptacle

PJ

Thanks again for the help. Right now my power supply is coiled up behind the wall where i would mount the spa panel so im thinking i could just hard wire it to it rather than using the dryer cord.

I now plan to go this route so the extension cord from the panel to the control panel would have to be 10/4 and everything supplying power to the elements would have to be 10/3.


I was thinking about the design and i like the idea of being able to add a pump later on and not having to redo the entire panel.

Ever come through KC and ill have a bag of grain waiting for all your help..

Thanks again

Rock Chalk

Chris

Chris,

You are very welcome.
Please keep us posted on your plan & build adventure.

P-J

I have the same 50A spa panel from HD and am considering wiring it to a 30A 3-wire (2xHOT + GRD) the way you recommend. However, my ground wire is bare (and maybe one size smaller than the 2 hot lines). Is it safe to carry current on a bare wire?

I will be running 1 4500W element with PID and a 240V LG pump for basic HERMS with gas boil. I don't need the 120V option now but may want it when I expand in the future (eventually want to go all electric). I have all of my parts and am going to start laying out components, marking my enclosure for PIDs, switches and lights.

This forum has been so helpful in my planning!! I don't know how long it would have taken to figure all this out without guidance!

bluedog_Brewing said:

I have the same 50A spa panel from HD and am considering wiring it to a 30A 3-wire (2xHOT + GRD) the way you recommend. However, my ground wire is bare (and maybe one size smaller than the 2 hot lines). Is it safe to carry current on a bare wire?
...

Click to expand...

Actually that wire is the neutral conductor and, although it is a bare conductor within the cable, it is insulated by the outer cable sheath.

One must consider the power delivered to a dryer or to an electric range in the kitchen. The dryer and the range are not pure 240V units. Each of them have 120V devices within them (timer, controls, lights), so indeed the 3rd wire in the power cord is the neutral. Grounding in these devices is also provided by the neutral by using a bonding strap within it from the neutral to the cabinet frame. Current NEC code requires that a separate ground and neutral be provided. But that code applies to wiring that was placed after the code change. It does not apply to existing wiring.

Now, If you were just plugging into a 3 prong outlet for your brew rig, there would be no problem using that neutral as a common neutral/ground. However: Enter a GFCI into the plan and it's a new ball game.

The Spa Panel gives you the vehicle to provide GFCI protection. If your brewery power is from a 3 wire 240V outlet, the Spa Panel wiring I illustrated is your method to break out the ground and the neutral.

I hope this clarifies it for you and makes sense.

P-J
Will the wireing diagram you show in this thread work with any spa panel.
The reason I ask I because I have a Square D 200 amp service in the house with a 60 amp feed comming off that to a panel for my garage but it is just 3 wire. In my main box the neutral and ground lugs are connected so I dont understand why 4 wires. My spa panel is a Connecticut Electric and it shows a four wire instalation. Should I run a ground wire from my ground rod the make 4th wire.

rod734 said:

P-J
Will the wireing diagram you show in this thread work with any spa panel.
The reason I ask I because I have a Square D 200 amp service in the house with a 60 amp feed comming off that to a panel for my garage but it is just 3 wire. In my main box the neutral and ground lugs are connected so I dont understand why 4 wires. My spa panel is a Connecticut Electric and it shows a four wire instalation. Should I run a ground wire from my ground rod the make 4th wire.

Click to expand...

I just saw you post. I answered the question for you in your new thread HERE

I hope it helps.

P-J said:

Chris,

Easy solution for you. Go to HomeDepot and buy this GE 50A 240V Spa Panel GFCI for $49.00 and then wire it up this way:

Use a 3 wire dryer cord for its input and then install a 4 wire outlet for the output to your brewery. The panel will then provide your GFCI protection & the mains panel will provide the 30A breaker for your rig. Plus you also develop the equipment ground while doing it without having to rewire your house. Another added benefit is the panel is a lot cheaper than just buying a 30A GFCI for your mains panel.

Hope this helps.

Edit: You might want to get this Leviton 2716 30-Amp, 125/250 Volt, Flanged Outlet to mount in the spa panel.

Click to expand...

So I could use this spa panel, instead of a more expensive 30amp GFI breaker in the main panel ?

Bill

What i have gathered is you could use either one. The choice is yours if you want to use the spa panel or a GFCI in the breaker box. They both provide Ground Fault protection and so far as i can tell the only difference is how you wire it and the price.

Rock Chalk

Chris

kappclark said:

So I could use this spa panel, instead of a more expensive 30amp GFI breaker in the main panel ?

Click to expand...

It really depends on how you wire the spa panel. If you do the setup as illustrated, it should be a device that plugs into an outlet. It should not be hard wired in place.

What is your intended set up?

Looking initially to setup a 220 HLT keggle .. that's it for now..

Will do the mashing in cooler, then boil on propane outside. Very simple setup, with no pumps etc.

Was thinking just a 220 outlet was all I needed - no control box, but the temp regulation for the HLT ia appealing

P-J,

OK, I think I get this, but I just want to be 100% sure...
I was planning on running 10-4 wire from a 30 amp breaker in my main panel to a spa panel like this and then running 10-4 cord to my control panel which will be running a 5500w element as well as some 120v devices. After seeing this diagram, I realized that I have another option. I have a long 10-3 (2 conductor with ground) extension cord that I use for my welder which is connected to a 30 amp breaker. So, according to this diagram, I can plug the spa panel into my welder extension cord and then use my 10-4 cord between the spa panel and the control panel. Can I still use 120v devices (in addition to the 240V element) in my control panel with this wiring configuration (only using 3 conductor cable between the spa panel and the main panel)?

Thanks!

P-J said:

Chris,

Easy solution for you. Go to HomeDepot and buy this GE 50A 240V Spa Panel GFCI for $49.00 and then wire it up this way:

Use a 3 wire dryer cord for its input and then install a 4 wire outlet for the output to your brewery. The panel will then provide your GFCI protection & the mains panel will provide the 30A breaker for your rig. Plus you also develop the equipment ground while doing it without having to rewire your house. Another added benefit is the panel is a lot cheaper than just buying a 30A GFCI for your mains panel.

Hope this helps.

Edit: You might want to get this Leviton 2716 30-Amp, 125/250 Volt, Flanged Outlet to mount in the spa panel.

Click to expand...

kevink said:

P-J,

OK, I think I get this, but I just want to be 100% sure...
I was planning on running 10-4 wire from a 30 amp breaker in my main panel to a spa panel like this and then running 10-4 cord to my control panel which will be running a 5500w element as well as some 120v devices. After seeing this diagram, I realized that I have another option. I have a long 10-3 (2 conductor with ground) extension cord that I use for my welder which is connected to a 30 amp breaker. So, according to this diagram, I can plug the spa panel into my welder extension cord and then use my 10-4 cord between the spa panel and the control panel. Can I still use 120v devices (in addition to the 240V element) in my control panel with this wiring configuration (only using 3 conductor cable between the spa panel and the main panel)?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

You really need to look at the wiring to the outlet where the welder cord plugs in. The 3 wires from the breaker panel should tell you what you need to know. If it is the 2 hots and a smaller green wire ground, I wouldn't do it that way. On the other hand, if it is wired useing 3 wires with all of them being the same gauge I think it would be ok.

P-J,

Thanks a lot. I just looked at the wire between the 30 amp breaker and the outlet where the welder plugs in and all 3 conductors measure exactly the same at 0.100". The ground is not insulated, but I don't think this matters as it is Romex, right?

That's correct. If I might ask, about when was the place built?

The house was built in 1950, but everything mentioned in this thread (main panel and welder outlet) was installed about 2 years ago. Why would it matter?

It really doesn't. I was just curious. There was a major change in the NEC in the 1990's regarding the way neutral and ground conductors are handled.

Is that when they went from 3 to 4 wires for dryers and stoves? That's why I'm wondering if it's cool to wire the spa panel in this way. I don't know exactly what would make it unsafe (if anything). If someone never had a dryer in their home and had one installed today, would they be required to use 4 conductor wire?

Yes, that is one of the things that changed. If new wiring is put in place today for a dryer or a stove, a 4 wire circuit is required as most electric dryers and stoves have both 120 & 240V devices in them. Regarding the spa panel hookup, you are ok with it as long as the panel is setup using an outlet. If it is hard wired, it must have a 4 wire feed to it.

Hey P-J, I see you're online right now. I'm Bryan and I PM'ed you earlier about this exact wiring scheme above. I have all of the parts and have wired the 3-prong dryer outlet up. Now I am in the spa panel trying to wire it up. I am using a plain old 3 prong dryer cord, but am confused by the end with the wires... How do I know which wire is which? They are all the same and they all have a connector (circle) on the end. Your diagram shows yellow, red and blue. I have no colors or other markings on my dryer cord. Help!

In other words, the cord is gray with three ring terminals. How do you distinguish between neutral, hot and ground? Or does it not matter?

You need to use a continuity tester to see which ring is connected to which blade of the plug.

Summy said:

Hey P-J, I see you're online right now. I'm Bryan and I PM'ed you earlier about this exact wiring scheme above. I have all of the parts and have wired the 3-prong dryer outlet up. Now I am in the spa panel trying to wire it up. I am using a plain old 3 prong dryer cord, but am confused by the end with the wires... How do I know which wire is which? They are all the same and they all have a connector (circle) on the end. Your diagram shows yellow, red and blue. I have no colors or other markings on my dryer cord. Help!

Click to expand...

Do you have a volt/ohm meter? If so it would be easy for you to identify the conductors involved. Measure the voltage on the outlet relative to each plug inlet position. This way you can easily determine which plug pin is which. Then using the ohm meter you can identify which wire relates to the plug prong involved.

Or post a picture of the cord you are using.

P-J

I do not have a volt/ohm meter. Here is the cord I have http://www.lowes.com/pd_148708-6690...ch+6-foot+3-wire+30-amp+dryer+cord&facetInfo= .

Seems like all of the 4-prong dryer plugs have the individually marked/colored wires, but none of the 3-prong seem to. Should I return this and build a dryer cord? Is that even possible?

Bryan,

The 'L' shaped prong on the outlet is the ground/neutral.



This relates to the center wire on the end of the plug cord.





A better solution would be to go and buy this inexpensive meter so that you know for sure:
radioshack.com - 17-Range Analog Multimeter
You could certainly use it, especially if you are going into an electric brewery build.

HTH

Thanks P-J, I'll get one...or better yet I'll borrow one from neighbor who has every tool imaginable. Hopefully he can show me how to use it too.

Summy said:

I have all of the parts and have wired the 3-prong dryer outlet up. Now I am in the spa panel trying to wire it up. I am using a plain old 3 prong dryer cord, but am confused by the end with the wires... How do I know which wire is which? They are all the same and they all have a connector (circle) on the end. Your diagram shows yellow, red and blue. I have no colors or other markings on my dryer cord. Help!

Click to expand...

Summy, you said you were attempting to wire up a spa panel, and you don't even have a multimeter. That is no good.

Do not depend on the people of this forum to ensure for you that you are doing this the correct/safe way. I suggest you physically find someone with the know-how to help you out.

Last question for the night P-J. In your wiring diagram on pg. 2 of this thread, you use the following colors: yellow=neutral (center wire for me) , red= ? (you have "Line 2" on diagram on pg. 1), and the third color I think is black (or blue)(which you have described as "Line 1" in diagram on pg.1) which = ? I would assume both are hot, but does red have a particular reading on the meter and black/blue a different?
AND... double-checking with my wiring of the 3-prong dryer outlet, it says to hook the "neutral (white) wire to silver colored terminal [which I had in my conduit wire], and the hot (black and red) wires, one to each copper colored terminal". I did have a black wire in the conduit, but not a red. I had a bare copper wire that was the same size as the other two (white and black). Am I correct in that that is the "red" wire?
Thanks again for everybody's help. I do have somebody locally who has gone electric and he is helping as best he can. He only has a two keggle system with a single element and is familiar with that setup. And I will be having an electrician checking up on all of my work before powering up.

Ok, An explanation. Typical 240v wiring is shown in 4 colors. White is the neutral (I show it as yellow because white does not show up on a white background). Line 1 is black and is 120V to neutral. Line 2 is red and is 120V to neutral with the phase oposite line 1. The potential between the black conductor (line 1) and the red conductor (line 2) is 240V (and each measures 120V to neutral). The grounding conductor is green or it can be a bare wire within a cable.

So, if you use the meter to measure voltage, you would see 120V between neutral (or ground) and line 1. The same when measuring between line 2 and neutral (or ground). When you measure between line 1 and line 2 you will see 240V.

Now comes a basic problem when SOME people do wiring. They choose a cable or wire that is not color coded for the installation being performed. Typically, a 3 wire cable (romex) has a black. white and bare conductor in it. A lot of times (that I've seen) the cable is simply hooked up to deliver 240V and that's it. To me that is patently wrong. They should have flagged the wires on both ends to represent the power being delivered. Black is black. Red tape on the white wire. The bare wire in this case would be either neutral or ground.

So: for your case I would strongly suspect that the black wire is line 1, the white is line 2 and the bare wire would be neutral.

You really NEED to get your hands on a volt meter.

Oh, and buy a package of colored electrical tape so that you can flag the wiring (on BOTH ends) as you go along. HD Link to tape This way there is no guess work for the next time or for the next person involved.

P-J

I think you're right P-J because looking at the way the wire was wired into the hot water heater (for the past 9 years +), it (the heater) has a red and black wire and the ground screw. The bare wire (from romex) had been attached to the ground screw and the white and black to the red and black wires in the hot water heater. Unfortunately I can't recall which red/black(water heater) was attached to which black/white(romex)? So I'm thinking I know that, at least, I'm gonna have to switch the wiring in my 3-prong dryer outlet--(bare wire[neutral/ground] to the silver colored terminal and the white to it's copper colored terminal). Does it matter which copper-colored terminal I connect my black and white romex wire to?
I will be going next door to borrow my neighbor's volt meter this AM.

Please buy some colored tape so that you can flag the wiring as appropriate before you button it up..

To answer you question: No it does not matter. The 2 "copper" colored (actually brass) terminals are the 240V input terminals.

I'm on it today. Will pick up the tape at my Hardware while I'm out. Also, while I was down there re-wiring the dryer outlet, I noticed in the hot water heater panel several wires connected in it's panel. There was yellow, black, red, and blue. I thought I could use them to wire up the recessed female outlet on the outgoing side of the spa panel? They all read "12AWG AWM STYLE 1015 OR 1230 105*C 600V VWI DIXIEWIRE (C)" Are they OK to use for that?
Also, don't know if I mentioned or not, but the control panel is going to be one of Marcus'. So, I won't be messing around with any of that wiring within the control panel, just the wiring to it.

digging up an old thread with a simple question. It seems a lot of people use 10 AWG 4/C wire for running 240V power to control panel. With a 5500W element that would be 23A. It seems that 10/3 wire is rated to 30A but 10/4 is only rated to 25A. I don't understand the difference but assume it is due to heat. If using 10/4 you are running the wire at 92% of max which is over the 80% recommended. Is this still safe or should I look at 8/4 ($$$$ OUCH!)

ekjohns said:

digging up an old thread with a simple question. It seems a lot of people use 10 AWG 4/C wire for running 240V power to control panel. With a 5500W element that would be 23A. It seems that 10/3 wire is rated to 30A but 10/4 is only rated to 25A. I don't understand the difference but assume it is due to heat. If using 10/4 you are running the wire at 92% of max which is over the 80% recommended. Is this still safe or should I look at 8/4 ($$$$ OUCH!)

Click to expand...

How about posting links to the cables that you speak of? There are many, many different cables and the specks "depends". First one being: Power supplied to a single outlet is very different than a circuit providing power to multi outlets. Second being: The total distance between the power panel and the outlet + the current draw also effects the amp rating of the cable. Third being: What is the duty cycle of the load? An hour? 2? 3? That also effects the current carrying capability.

In your situation?? Is it the correct cable? I really think you are A-Ok.
But? Answer the questions first. (i.e. - Is the run a hundred feet ++?)

Another thing: The 80% rule? Please read deeper into the NEC code.

\/



So sorry. I apologize. I'm out of control with my mind spinning.
I'll post this anyway. Sorry.. (I really think you are A-Ok using that cable for a brewery setup.) Sigh!!

P-J

P-J thanks for the reply. Here is a link to the wire Lowes. length would be 30-40'. Run for 3 hrs. The way I plan to hook it up would be:

dryer outlet - dryer cord (6') - Spa panel - 10/4 wire (30-40') - control panel