4500W for 5 Gal. Overkill?

Hi all,

I'm planning an electric brewery that I will mostly be doing 5 gallon batches in with the occasional 10 gallon batch. I have 220v and Auberin 2352 PID. From what I've read on these forums, the 4500W element will work fine for the 10 gal batches. I'm going to be using a two tier, one pump, no sparge system. The BK will act as a large RIMs while I'm mashing. Do you foresee any problems with heating a small amount of recirculated wort with the 4500W (caramelization)? Can the PID be manually "turned down" and still work as a PID? Can the manual setting turn down far enough to get a proper boil on a 5 gal batch?

Thanks!

I do 5g batches with a 5500w. I suggest you go 5500w if you have not already bought it. The pid doesn't care what size element it just hits the set temp. In manual mode the pid just acts as a pwm for dialing on/off time. If you go with the larger element it will make ten g batches easier if you start making larger batches.

To answer the question no it won't hurt your wort

while that is true, the difference between 4500 and 5500w is the difference between being able to use a 20A 240v circuit and needing to build/install something larger. if you already have a 30 or 50A circuit, then it doesnt matter.

The BK will act as a large RIMs while I'm mashing.

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how exactly do you plan on setting this up? is there a coil/heat exchanger in the boil kettle? is it gas or electrically heated?

Thanks. Ya audger nailed it. I'm using the 4500w so I dont have to replace a bunch of wiring.

This is what I have in mind...



MT on the bottom. BK with element above. I have calculated water volumes for different batch sizes and gravities and I think it will work, but please feel free to give input.

audger said:

while that is true, the difference between 4500 and 5500w is the difference between being able to use a 20A 240v circuit and needing to build/install something larger. if you already have a 30 or 50A circuit, then it doesnt matter.


How exactly do you plan on setting this up? is there a coil/heat exchanger in the boil kettle? is it gas or electrically heated?

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If a 4500 watt element draws 18.75 amp how can you run that on 20 amps? Doesn't the 80% rule come into play? Also running this element with a pump would put you over 20 amps as well wouldn't it?

I ask because I'm planning an eBIAB system and decided to go with a 5500 watt element, because I thought screw it 20amps isn't going to work anyways.

I'm using 10 AWG

bikesnbeers said:

I'm using 10 AWG

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Sorry, I'm still confused. On a 20amp circuit your going to constantly be tripping the breaker if your using a 4500 watt element and pump at the same time.

If you wires in the wall are 10 AWG which is rated for 30amps, wouldn't you just need to replace the breakers to get a 5500 watt element?

brewhokie, look for the spreadsheet named "Electric Heat.xls". I'm not sure who made it, but it is pretty useful. I know enough about circuits to be dangerous, but luckily my dad is an electrician. I plan on consulting with him after i get a good idea about what I want. Anyway, this is my thinking:

10 AWG, max load (80%) = 24 Amps, min breaker = 30 A

4500w element @ 240 = 18.8A
5500w element @ 240 = 22.9A

pump = 1.4 A

The 4500w element puts me in the range of the 10AWG, the 5500w puts me out.

Anyone have a correction or comment? Thanks

bikesnbeers said:

MT on the bottom. BK with element above. I have calculated water volumes for different batch sizes and gravities and I think it will work, but please feel free to give input.

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Consider putting the MLT above the BK, so you gravity-feed the BK. This avoids putting suction on the grain bed.

bikesnbeers said:

brewhokie, look for the spreadsheet named "Electric Heat.xls". I'm not sure who made it, but it is pretty useful. I know enough about circuits to be dangerous, but luckily my dad is an electrician. I plan on consulting with him after i get a good idea about what I want. Anyway, this is my thinking:

10 AWG, max load (80%) = 24 Amps, min breaker = 30 A

4500w element @ 240 = 18.8A
5500w element @ 240 = 22.9A

pump = 1.4 A

The 4500w element puts me in the range of the 10AWG, the 5500w puts me out.

Anyone have a correction or comment? Thanks

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It is fairly common around here to run one 5500W element and a March pump on 30A service.

HearthstoneBrewery - I like that idea. I'm trying to juggle between what you recommended, including bottom drains, keeping the tops of kettles low (like the brewer), and keeping the element submerged without a switch. I'm haven't decided which layout best meets these needs/wants.

jeffmeh - According to the "Electric Heat.xls" spreadsheet, it takes 9 more minutes on a 4500w than a 5500w to get 15 gal. from 70 deg to 170 deg. I'm OK with that.

brewhokie said:

Sorry, I'm still confused. On a 20amp circuit your going to constantly be tripping the breaker if your using a 4500 watt element and pump at the same time.

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a march pump pulls 1-2 amps at 120v. (if it could run on 240), it would theoretically only pull 0.25 to 0.5 amps. normally, people just plug in their pump to a regular 120v outlet instead of messing around with splitting 240. it can be done either way, but if you are close to the max for your circuit, you should just run the other low power items from the closest wall outlet.

the 80% rule is a good rule for planning when we are talking about non-dedicated circuits, like general use wall outlets. if you have a 20A circuit and positively know that you are only going to pull 19 amps at any given time, then its perfectly fine to do that. if you hover right around 20A, you will probably end up tripping the breaker every so often.

also, since we are talking about resistive loads, "240" volts is often less when you take into account resistance of the legnth of wiring from the incoming feed (but "240v" can sometimes be higher and your element would pull more current, so its important to actually measure the voltage).

4500w @240v = 18.75A
a 4500w element on only 230v = just under 18A (and 4100w of heating power)
a 4500w element on only 220v = just over 17A (and 3800W of heating power)

If you wires in the wall are 10 AWG which is rated for 30amps, wouldn't you just need to replace the breakers to get a 5500 watt element?

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as long as the outlets and everything behind the breaker are rated to handle 30 amps, then yes.

According to the "Electric Heat.xls" spreadsheet, it takes 9 more minutes on a 4500w than a 5500w to get 15 gal. from 70 deg to 170 deg. I'm OK with that.

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it requires 12,450 BTUs to move 15 gallons of water 100 degrees.
each 1000w of power puts out ~3400BTUs in an hour.

so 4500w = 15,300 BTU/hr = 48 minutes to heat
and 5500w = 18,700 BTU/hr = 39 minutes to heat

your spreadsheet appears to be correct.
im not sure, though, that i like the idea of running the element in the boil kettle while circulating. i can think of many instances where it could become exposed to air, and you really want the wort to be quickly circulating around it like it does in a common RIMS tube.

and if you thought dialing in PID settings was tough before, now you have the variable flow patterns in the boil kettle to make your life harder.

additionally, you will have a large volume of wort that isnt going to be in contact with the grain. this could give you trouble trying to keep a good water:grain ratio, and it would reduce enzyme activity in the mash.

Good input audger! Thanks.

im not sure, though, that i like the idea of running the element in the boil kettle while circulating. i can think of many instances where it could become exposed to air, and you really want the wort to be quickly circulating around it like it does in a common RIMS tube.

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The outlet in the BK is 1.5" higher than the heating element (see sketch previous post). It is possible that without a check valve near the pump and if the pump were to turn off and spin backwards, that wort could run out of the kettle, but I don't see any other way of running the element dry. Do you?

and if you thought dialing in PID settings was tough before, now you have the variable flow patterns in the boil kettle to make your life harder.

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I'm guessing that with the pump running/mixing the BK and the relatively large amount of wort in the BK, the temps will be more likely to be stable. That is just a guess. I may have to experiment with placement of the temp sensor. Do you have any thoughts on that? I havent tuned the PID before.

additionally, you will have a large volume of wort that isnt going to be in contact with the grain. this could give you trouble trying to keep a good water:grain ratio, and it would reduce enzyme activity in the mash.

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As far as enzymatic activity goes, the process that I am proposing is similar to a brew in the bag or no sparge. Both have proven to be successful, but I personally have no experience with either of them (yet).

4500w will be fine for both 10 and 5 gallon batches. Just got done with the first 10 gallon brew on my new rig, 5 gallon before that with a 4500w element in the brew kettle. The 10 gallon was boiling off 1gph at about 75% the 5 gallon was boiling off 1gph at about 60% roughly (I use PWM which should be close to the manual settings on the PID)

HearthstoneBrewery said:

Consider putting the MLT above the BK, so you gravity-feed the BK. This avoids putting suction on the grain bed.

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I tried this method and it worked OK. It required constant attention as the flow rate changed as the grain compacted. The pump flowrate needs to match the mlt flowrate or else you are going to run the element dry. Otherwise it made great beer.

jtsims21 said:

4500w will be fine for both 10 and 5 gallon batches. Just got done with the first 10 gallon brew on my new rig, 5 gallon before that with a 4500w element in the brew kettle. The 10 gallon was boiling off 1gph at about 75% the 5 gallon was boiling off 1gph at about 60% roughly (I use PWM which should be close to the manual settings on the PID)

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Yes, I have a 4500 w element, and I do mostly 5 gallon batches. I used to have a PID but now I use PWM. It works great.

McCuckerson said:

I tried this method and it worked OK. It required constant attention as the flow rate changed as the grain compacted. The pump flowrate needs to match the mlt flowrate or else you are going to run the element dry. Otherwise it made great beer.

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I have a clone of jkarp's Countertop Brutus, with a slotted CPVC manifold, a Chugger pump, and a gate valve on the pump. I recirculate the entire boil volume through the mash tun and back into the kettle, with the kettle about 1/3 full and the mash very thin. Once I get the valves dialed in, the level in the kettle is fairly constant. I think that is primarily due to my use of a gate valve, which has a much finer control than a ball valve.

It required constant attention as the flow rate changed as the grain compacted.

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I'm thinking that since the outlet of the BK is above the element, I wont have to worry about the element running dry. Maybe the pump might run dry? I wonder if something like the autosparge could work on a system like this.

For those of you who are using a similar system... What efficiency do you see? I'm guessing 50-60?

Thanks!

Yooper said:

Yes, I have a 4500 w element, and I do mostly 5 gallon batches. I used to have a PID but now I use PWM. It works great.

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Yooper- Why did you switch to the PWM? Do you get different results than using PID in manual?

bikesnbeers said:

Yooper- Why did you switch to the PWM? Do you get different results than using PID in manual?

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No- it worked great! BUT PIDs are more expensive, and I wanted to move my PID to my new (bigger) HLT where I formerly had a Johnson Controller.

Instead of buying another PID, I just went with the PWM.

Yooper said:

No- it worked great! BUT PIDs are more expensive, and I wanted to move my PID to my new (bigger) HLT where I formerly had a Johnson Controller.

Instead of buying another PID, I just went with the PWM.

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Hurray for the whip being back! Sorry about the pack my wife was greatly dissappointed. I just drank another homebrew and it was ok.

I chose a PWM because of the cost and ease of adjusting output power... all i have to do is turn a knob and i can go from 0 to 100% fast.