Simple Electric Build....From the Pros

I have been wanting to make a jump to a simple electric brewery once I move into a new place. The problem is I want a simple and SAFE simple system and have little knowledge of complex electric builds. I have been looking for a thread but most are either too extravagant or partial builds. What I am hoping is to get the Pros (P-J, Kal, etc...) to build on this thread with diagrams and all the parts needed to make a simple and safe electric brew build. This could then be used for all those people wanting to make the jump but overwhelmed with doing so. I will try and fill in as much as I can but there is a lot still missing.

As of 10/24/2011 - Still need a lot of parts for the build. Still need discussion on GCFI connections (where and what)

Simple Electric Brewery Build
2 Elements (BK, HLT Optional) $17.69

1 PID $45.50
1 Pump (Optional) $150
SSR 40A $19
Heat Sink $19.50
4 prong Dryer Cord $20
4 wire outlet $6

Project Box $27
Dryer cord for each element $6
3 wire outlets (X2) $6

Spa Panel with GFCI $50
terminal strip (pack of 2) $6

Simple Diagram

From the wall outlet (either a 3 prong or 4 prong plug) the appropriate dryer cord will go into the spa panel which is also the GFCI. If you are using a 3 wire cord, the ground will be split in the spa panel to neutral and ground. This will then be wired into a 4 prong outlet.

From there follow the diagram below.

Wishing you the best and I'm more than willing to help you in any way that I can..

Questions for you. What size kettles are you planning on? What kind (?Sanke?)? What power source do you have for your brewery? 240V 30A dryer outlet? (Oh, and if so is it a 3 or 4 prong plug? Or is it something else.) What about GFCI protection?

One of the things that you can use for your controller is the Project Box offered by Auber Instruments.

Wishing you great success & I'd be glad to help in your plan.

P-J

ekjohns, I planned on transitioning to all electric and this post has convinced me to jump on the train sooner then later, let me know how this works out and I will most likely follow in your footsteps.

well then, after perusing the electric brewing forum for a few days I find this, which is pretty much where I am sitting right now. subscribed and looking forward to taking as much info from this as possible.

If you're looking for a parts list, (since I'm planning out something similar right now).

Dryer Cord - $20

Spa Panel with GFCI - $50
Dryer cords (for elements) = 2x $6 each = $12

Element potting, (a-la Kal's theelectricbrewery.com), ~$20 for two (best guess) (buy parts at hardware store)
3 wire outlets for elements - 2x $6 = $12


Edit: Note, my outlets and cords for the elements are NOT as fancy as Kals. They are not locking, NEMA grade ones. Those cost big money. These are still safe, just not ideal. You have to choose two: Safe, Ideal, Cheap.

Subscribed. Great idea, I personally would love to jump into electric but am intimidated by the super-fancy controller boxes (even though they are works of art )

Also, in terms of "cheap", 40A SSRs and Heat sinks can be had as a set for about $12-14 on eBay, (not posting links since they expire, and you want this to be a reference thread), saving you around $26, (as long as you don't mind waiting for chinese shipping). Search "40A ssr heat sink".

so is your simple electric build just a heated hLT and BK, or are you headed toward herms/rims?

PJ, I will not be building this for at least 9 months, but like to plan ahead as to future proof my system. Therefore, I do not have the exact specifications of everything. I want to make this applicable to as many people as possible. With that said, lets just assume a 10 gallon system (sanke or 15 gallon pot). For dryer connection I am not sure what is common, if you have time could you please explain the difference in wiring between the 2? Finally, cause it is harder to add GCFI let assume there is NO current GCFI installed (therefore, one needs to me installed).

runningweird said:

so is your simple electric build just a heated hLT and BK, or are you headed toward herms/rims?

Click to expand...

Simple BK and HLT no herms/rims

I'm going to be watching this thread closely. I literally just came to start an almost identical thread. My knowledge of electrical work is limited to fixing broken switches on ceiling fans, toying around with various 12v stuff, building computers and such so I can't compare with what seems to be the majority on here. There has got to be a rather simple way to get everything together. I'm really shocked that there isn't more in the way of ready made electric set ups for small batch brewing.

My needs wont exceed 5 gallons, so this should be interesting!

You need a 4 wire dryer cord going from the spa panel (which will house your GCFI), to your control panel, (which will house your PID and switches). The reason for this is you need to run some of your stuff at 120V, (like the PID), and you can't (safely) split 240 into 120V if you only have 3 wire service.

If you have a dryer outlet that's only 3-wire, no worries, you can "create" the 4th wire in the spa panel, (splitting ground into neutral and ground is only "allowed" in a panel). P-J has nifty diagrams for that.

So you actually need 4 dryer cords total, and 3 outlets, (not two). 2x 3-wire cords for the elements, 1x 4 wire for spa panel -> control panel, and 1x {3 or 4 wire} for dryer outlet to spa panel. You need 3 outlets, 2 for the elements and 1 more for the spa panel.

Exisiting Wall Outlet --> 3 or 4 wire cord --> spa panel --> 4 wire outlet/4 wire cord ---> control panel --->3 wire outlets/3 wire cords to elements.

Note, some folks use the spa panel box AS their control panel box...i.e. they wire the PID and switches into the spa panel, and this eliminates the need for 1 dryer outlet and one of the 4-wire cords. This is unsafe though, as you now have your GFCI housed in the same box as the panel, so the whole box could become electrified in the event of a catastrophic fault, (a fault like this guy had...)

i see you are switching the elements between pots how are you planning the temperature probe switching? or will it be a loose probe you dip into the pots?

jtsims21 said:

i see you are switching the elements between pots how are you planning the temperature probe switching? or will it be a loose probe you dip into the pots?

Click to expand...

I believe the probe will be for the HLT and the BK would use the PID on manual. Is this correct?

Question as I don't think it's been asked yet - how are you planning to enclose/mount the elements? Similar to Kal's (theelectricbrewery.com) build?

I have not gone over that. I think that Kal's is pretty good, but I will try and make a simple version of it since his is very fancy, beautiful but fancy

I'm watching this thread, since I'm interested in the same things as the OP- No pumps, tubing, etc. I just want to replace propane heating with electric immersion heating, and I won't use heatsticks, for a variety of reasons. I brew 5 gallon batches only, and can see no reason why I'd ever want to brew more. I brew ≤100 gal. per year, so most of the HERMS, RIMS, etc. are simply overkill for me. I can do electrical wiring and soldering, etc., so it's not that I'm intimidated.....it's just that I want a K.I.S.S. electrical system.

The concept and circuit layouts shown here are the best thing I've seen for my situation.

ekjohns said:

PJ, I will not be building this for at least 9 months, but like to plan ahead as to future proof my system. Therefore, I do not have the exact specifications of everything. I want to make this applicable to as many people as possible. With that said, lets just assume a 10 gallon system (sanke or 15 gallon pot). For dryer connection I am not sure what is common, if you have time could you please explain the difference in wiring between the 2? Finally, cause it is harder to add GCFI let assume there is NO current GCFI installed (therefore, one needs to me installed).

Click to expand...

Sorry I missed your post. For some reason I did not see it until today.

Regarding the heating elements. You can use 4500W elements as shown in the diagram in which case I'd suggest LWD Incoloy elements as shown from Lowe's. You could also use 5500W LWD Incoloy elements without making any changes to the diagram. The choice really depends on how quickly you can heat the water and bring your wort to a boil.

For the power feed: It is critically important that your brewery be protected with a GFCI circuit breaker. Your life can depend on it. It is my opinion that the least expensive way to do this it to purchase a GE Spa Panel from Home Depot. Then if you are powering your brewery from a 3 prong dryer outlet you would make your connection to the Spa Panel like this.



However: If your dryer outlet is a 4 prong outlet your wiring would be done in this manner.



You could then mount a 4 prong outlet in you Spa Panel to provide the power for your brewery controller. Something like this.



I sure hope this all makes sense and helps.

P-J

I have to say that I will also be doing this sort of thing in the very short term, and plan on using mostly information from thelectricbrewery.com . I know it looks overly-complicated, but really for what we're looking for it isn't. In fact, I've seen on his website somewhere that it really only took him a few hours to put everything together, and orders of magnitude more time to photograph and document everything. Here is where I'm at right now:

1) I have a 10 gallon aluminum boil kettle that has been working great for me with propane. I will install the heater element(s) into this, along with a valve for easier transfer of fluids.
2) I need to decide if I want to use one 'large' 240V element or two 'small' 120V ones.
3) To install the element(s) in my pot, I will pretty much follow kal's instructions at theelectricbrewery.com . I've looked through his stuff a few times, and it really looks as straightforward as punching (not drilling) a few holes and screwing stuff together. I like the weatherproof box idea to help keep things robust.
4) I could stop here and plug my element into the wall and be done. I'd like finer control over my heat output, so I plan on installing a Pulse Width Modulator circuit with a knob to control it to act as an attenuator for the current going through the heating element.
5) Also, after reading through this thread, I've decided I need to look into what the heck GFCI is and why I would need/want it.

I've been using one vessel as a HLT and brew kettle, and I see no need to change that at this time. Obviously, there is a convenience factor with having a separate vessel, but I figure baby steps is a good way to go with this one.

Anywho, just my $0.02

Update: After reading P-J's post above, I've decided that it is critical to 'need/want' a GFCI circuit breaker.

ezzieyguywuf said:

...
Update: After reading P-J's post above, I've decided that it critical to 'need/want' a GFCI circuit breaker.

Click to expand...

Yes. IMHO it is absolutely critical. Your life could depend on it. Please trust me on this issue. Please!!

P-J said:

I sure hope this all makes sense and helps.

P-J

Click to expand...

more than you know!

Can I please ask what the PID controller will be used for, if no HERMS/RIMS system will be in place?

I have also been looking into a PWM in the short term. They are super cheap $8 and the SSR and heat sink can be re-wired for a PID. Either way a Spa panel with GFCI is a 100% requirement.

ezzieyguywuf said:

Can I please ask what the PID controller will be used for, if no HERMS/RIMS system will be in place?

Click to expand...

The Auberin Instruments PID allows you to set your strike water temperature exactly without having to monitor and baby sit it. Additionally, the same PID can be used in manual mode to control your boil rate by controlling the percent of power being delivered.

Your choice.

P-J

So this PID can be used in lieu of a 'manual' PWM knob? Very nice, maybe I'll do something like this instead of the PWM...

ezzieyguywuf said:

So this PID can be used in lieu of a 'manual' PWM knob? Very nice, maybe I'll do something like this instead of the PWM...

Click to expand...

Yes.

I had a PID on my old boil kettle, with a Johnson controller for the HLT. It worked ok. But now I have both in my control panel- a PWM knob for the BK and the PID for the HLT. I love that! I don't need the actual temperature of my BK printed out for me- I have a CFC and take the temperature there.

Yooper said:

Yes.

I had a PID on my old boil kettle, with a Johnson controller for the HLT. It worked ok. But now I have both in my control panel- a PWM knob for the BK and the PID for the HLT. I love that! I don't need the actual temperature of my BK printed out for me- I have a CFC and take the temperature there.

Click to expand...

Well goodness, didn't you see that I'm trying to start small? You got me wanting to go out and buy a second vessel for a HLT now.

In all seriousness though, I'm glad that you posted that because it gives me a great potential use for either way I decide to go on this first 'baby step' towards a full-on, 3-tank solution down the line.

P-J do you know much about a pwm? I know there is a thread discussing a cheap one to buy but I'm not sure how to wire one. I will get a simple diagram to help first just want to make sure everything is hooked up fine

ekjohns said:

P-J do you know much about a pwm? I know there is a thread discussing a cheap one to buy but I'm not sure how to wire one. I will get a simple diagram to help first just want to make sure everything is hooked up fine

Click to expand...

Yes - but - that is your choice in how you decide to set up your brewery. It is not my choice.

To each their own.

P-J

P-J, Can you help me understand something?
The Home Depot spa panel is for 50 amps. But doesn't most of these systems stay below drawing 30 amps? Is this OK? If there was a problem, would that be too big of a difference?
Thanks.

chutracheese said:

P-J, Can you help me understand something?
The Home Depot spa panel is for 50 amps. But doesn't most of these systems stay below drawing 30 amps? Is this OK? If there was a problem, would that be too big of a difference?
Thanks.

Click to expand...

In every instance where a Spa Panel is set up, it must have its power feed from the circuit breaker panel. If the power used is from a dryer outlet (240V - 30A) a circuit breaker is already in place for that line. The Spa Panel is then used only for its GFCI capability not for amperage control.

I hope this makes sense.

P-J said:

In every instance where a Spa Panel is set up, it must have its power feed from the circuit breaker panel. If the power used is from a dryer outlet (240V - 30A) a circuit breaker is already in place for that line. The Spa Panel is then used only for its GFCI capability not for amperage control.

I hope this makes sense.

Click to expand...

To paraphrase, the 30A panel breaker controlling the circuit is "upstream" (closer to the source of the electricity), and will trip first, giving the desired 30A control. The 50 A breaker in the spa panel never trips, because the only point of the spa panel being there in the first place is GFCI. Is this also a correct rendition of the logic of this circuit?

rico567 said:

To paraphrase, the 30A panel breaker controlling the circuit is "upstream" (closer to the source of the electricity), and will trip first, giving the desired 30A control. The 50 A breaker in the spa panel never trips, because the only point of the spa panel being there in the first place is GFCI. Is this also a correct rendition of the logic of this circuit?

Click to expand...

Yes it is correct. The only purpose of the GFCI in this type of wiring layout is to detect ground faults. The function could also be implemented by replacing the panel breaker with a GFCI breaker. The issue then becomes cost of the breaker. (BTW - there are other issues as well that can present additional wiring problems) Generally, a GFCI breaker for the breaker panel will cost 2 to 3 times the cost of the GE Spa Panel.

Subscribed! Interesting that a few of us are right at this point - thinking of converting to electric but just a little intimidated by some of the awesome setups.

On the topic of all this GFCI/Spa panel business,

I'm planning on doing all new wiring back to my electrical panel from my brew room. I'm assuming I'm ok to get a circuit breaker with a built in GFCI and skip the Spa panel?

crypt0 said:

On the topic of all this GFCI/Spa panel business,

I'm planning on doing all new wiring back to my electrical panel from my brew room. I'm assuming I'm ok to get a circuit breaker with a built in GFCI and skip the Spa panel?

Click to expand...

That's what I was going to do until I discovered that a GFCI breaker for my main panel costs over $100.00 but the spa panel is only $50.00.

(hence the main reason why so many are using the spa panel.....)

Subscribed...

Thanks for this thread.. especially the parts list...

Planning on switching over to electric real soon...
Gonna try an electric single kettle BIAB RIMS type deal...
Then expand to two kettle if I'm not happy with it...

What size threads are required for that element?
How are they typically mounted in the kettle?

crypt0 said:

On the topic of all this GFCI/Spa panel business,

I'm planning on doing all new wiring back to my electrical panel from my brew room. I'm assuming I'm ok to get a circuit breaker with a built in GFCI and skip the Spa panel?

thughes said:

That's what I was going to do until I discovered that a GFCI breaker for my main panel costs over $100.00 but the spa panel is only $50.00.

(hence the main reason why so many are using the spa panel.....)

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

That is a good point and one I mention a lot. Another is that using the Spa Panel allows you to have your GFCI local within your brew area. If your mains panel is a long distance from your brewery, it's nice to have your GFCI protection local. This way you will never second guess yourself about hitting the E-Stop when things "seem to be going wrong". You just DO it & recovery is not a long walk...

IMHO

P-J

Now it does. Thank you.
The breaker in the panel controls the 30 amps.
The spa panel is only doing ground fault duty.

In my head I was confusing the two and was thinking that it would take 50 amps to trip the GFCI. So if the setup was only using 30 amps, it wouldn't ever trip.

Thank you for straightening that out P-J.
Also, thank you Rico.

P-J said:

In every instance where a Spa Panel is set up, it must have its power feed from the circuit breaker panel. If the power used is from a dryer outlet (240V - 30A) a circuit breaker is already in place for that line. The Spa Panel is then used only for its GFCI capability not for amperage control.

I hope this makes sense.

Click to expand...

What size fitting do these heating elements use? Are they universally the same size? 1/2" NPT? 3/4" NPT? !"?

How are they typically mounted in the keggle? Are they screwed into a coupling welded to the side (like the dial thermometers)? If so, is the coupling a full length, or half length coupling? IS it welded with the coupling sticking out from the keggle or in?

Thanks, just trying to understand how these things are mounted...