Attention All Extract Brewers - Harsh Bitterness and Aftertaste

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

jescholler

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
535
Reaction score
8
Location
Louisville
Sodium/Sulfate Harsh Bitterness Experiment
Today I started an experiment to try and determine the cause of a harsh bitterness in my extract beers. At the moment, the experiment is in progress, but I have some good data to present. I plan to update this post as I get information such as fermentation times and temperatures and bottling details. I will add future tasting results in a subsequent post. I hope you find value in this experiment.

Statement of Problem
It is a well known fact that the combination of high levels of sodium and sulfate in brewing water will result in a harsh bitterness in a beer. According to John Palmer, it is desirable to keep either one of these minerals as low as possible, preferably the sodium. The extract brewer is faced with a handicap unless they use water nearly void of all minerals in their beer (i.e. distilled, de-ionized, or put through reverse osmosis). If an extract brewer uses their tap or well water for beer, the total minerals in the final product come from both the water used to make the extract, and the water out of their tap or well. If this sum includes high levels of sodium in combination with sulfate, the beer will have a harsh bitterness.

This was observed in one of my extract brews where I used one gallon of distilled water and the remaining water was from my tap. The initial taste of the beer was great, but it had a harsh bitterness that lasted for many minutes. Upon investigation, I realized that my tap water is high in sodium and sulfate content, 200ppm and 160ppm respectively. Since I was using extract, the minerals in the water used to make the extract also ended up in the final beer. The sum of the sodium and sulfate in both the extract water and my tap water put the harsh bitterness over the top and made the beer unpleasant.

Hypothesis
A simple solution to the problem is to use all distilled water when using extract. This will minimize the amount of both sodium and sulfate in the beer. An extract beer brewed with distilled water will be much less harsh than a beer brewed using my tap water.

Recipe
This single recipe represents two different beers. Both beers are identical to each other except for the water used.

Beer:
Sodium/Sulfate Experiment
Type: Extract
Size: ~.5 gallons
Color: 7 HCU (~6 SRM)
Bitterness: 33 IBU
OG: 1.045
FG: Not Measured (batch too small)
Alcohol: Not Measured (batch too small)

Water:
One beer was made with tap water and 1/8 tsp. gypsum creating the following concentration of minerals:

Calcium - 41ppm
Magnesium - 3ppm
Sodium - 199ppm
*Chloride - 6ppm
Sulfate - 236ppm
The final beer will include the minerals above plus the minerals used in the water to make the extract. It is expected that the combined sodium and sulfate concentrations are extremely high.
*Note the chloride/sulfate ratio of my tap water is extremely weighted to the sulfate side. I have no way of knowing what the mineral content is in the extract I used. I will be able to adjust for the low chloride level by adding calcium chloride to the beer during tasting. If the harsh bitterness is due to the combination of high levels of sodium and sulfate, then adding chloride will not get rid of the harsh bitterness.

The other beer was made with all distilled water, which theoretically has no mineral content. This allows the beer to be made with only the mineral content of the extract.

Boil:
60 minutes
SG: 1.022
1 gallons
8 oz. Amber dry malt extract

Hops:
5g Hallertauer (3.9% AA, 60 min.)

Yeast:
Safale US-05 was used. It was re-hydrated in 1/2 cup distilled water at 80°F. The yeast was allowed to hydrate for 20 minutes and then aerated for the following 30 minutes by swirling occasionally. Each beer received 1 tbsp. of the yeast slurry, equaling approximately 28 billion cells. The yeast was pitched with the worts at ~70°F.

Log:
Brew Date: 7/19/2009
Fermented in 64 oz. growlers at 64°F for 1 month.

Results
The two worts were sampled prior to pitching the yeast. A comparison is shown below.
post_boil_wort_evaluation.bmp
 
Just a thought... you should probably look into doing blind taste testing.

The fact that you know which is which ruins your view on it before you try it. Because you've had so many bitter tap water beers, you already have it in your mind that this is the cause.

You could be right.... but it would be smart to have someone with no opinions do the testing. I'm available by the way.
 
Interesting. I'd also be interested in seeing the results of some blind taste testing in multiple styles.
 
I do agree that some blind tasting is in order. I have some brewing buddies that don't know about the experiment. I think I will recruit them for the final tasting. Before that (i.e. bottling), I don't see it as too big of a deal for me to do the tasting. Just to see how things evolve.

Thanks for the input. I was considering blind tasting, but now I have to do it for sure.
 
why do you specifically mention extracts? is this specific to extract brewing, or is that all you have tested?
it has been my experience that distilled or RO water is TOO pure for brewing unless you add minerals or yeast nutrient back to it.
i used RO for making wine kits, mead and extract beer kits for several years. i had noticed occasionally that attenuation was not as high as it should be. at a group brewing event, they had an inline charcoal filter hooked up to a hose. someone mentioned that RO is too purified and is lacking the trace minerals that yeast needs so i got a charcoal filter and have been using it. i haven't used it long enough to notice any results yet.
 
I mention extract brewing because you get a double water profile (that of your tap water and that of the water used to make the extract). The double water profile increases your chances of having some minerals be too high.

The water used to make the extract should have the proper mineral content, although it may not be tailored to your particular style (chloride to sulfate ratio etc.). Using distilled water with extract is essentially recreating the condition after the mash and sparge at the extractor.

This could definitely be a problem for all grain brewing as well, but all other things being equal it would be less severe since you only have one water profile. In my case with 200ppm sodium and 160ppm sulfate, it would likely be a problem, but I haven't tried that. It is true that for mashing if you use distilled water, your water would lack the minerals required to perform a good mash. Therefore you would need to add salts to get the required profile.
 
One quick question, what type of extract are you using? The reason I ask is that I recently switched to a more 'fresh' extract (or so advertised) and my beer has improved greatly. I have been using spring water, but wondering if this shift to distilled water would even yield a greater improvement.
 
I used Muntons Amber DME, packaged by Crosby and Baker. I don't know about the freshness, but I don't think this is too much of a concern with DME. It was packaged in heat sealed plastic.

You might be able to improve your beers by using distilled water. Do you know what brand of spring water you use? Some of the brands publish their information:
- Water from all over the World

The big unknown here is the mineral content of the extract. It's hard to tell if the water that we're using has too much of something if we don't know the mineral content of the extract.
 
Nice thread! I have long wondered why I have a twanginess aftertaste in my extract brews. Will be curious to see what the outcome of this experiment is. Prosting this thread
 
I 'am confused...as a new brewer of course...I could have sworn i read somewhere NOT to use distilled water? I too have this twangy aftertaste to my beer and not even really looking forward to trying my third batch.
 
I get most of the information relating to this experiment from John Palmer. In a podcast on the Brewing Network, he talks about brewing extract beers with tap/deionized water. Here is the link:
The Brewing Network.com - :

At 17:00 into the podcast, he says:
"With extract brewing, you can safely brew any extract kit with dionized water or distilled water because the mineral profile is already in there."

Starting at about 15 minutes into the podcast, he mentions that as a general rule if your tap water tastes good, it is probably safe to brew extract beers with it. He also says that you can get into trouble in some cases. He specifically mentions a case if the minerals in your extract combined with the minerals in your tap water make the beer too high in alkalinity, you can have off flavors. He mentions that these types of beers can be harshly bitter.

In my case, I hypothesize that I'm getting too high of concentrations of sodium and sulfate from the extract's mineral profile combined with my tap water's mineral profile. On Palmer's website, howtobrew.com (chapter 15.1), he mentions that this can cause a harsh bitterness:
"The combination of sodium with a high concentration of sulfate ions will generate a very harsh bitterness. Therefore keep at least one or the other as low as possible, preferably the sodium."
 
In the BrewStrong podcast on water, I think the first or second episode, he does state that the sulfate:chloride ratio can effect flavor even in extract brewing.

Oh, I just checked, that's the podcasts you were referring too. I think once you get through all 4-5 of them you will believe that your water does matter even for extract.

After listening to those podcasts I personally believe that is why my first two extract batches came out with unusual bitterness. Now I always use the brewersfriend.com water chemistry calculator to adjust my water. All of their info comes from How To Brew. Basically they made a web version of chapter 15 of the book.
 
Is your tap water from a well or from the city's pipes? Is it chlorinated or chloraminated if it is city water? If it is chlorinated, doesn't chlorine often lead to harsh, astringent flavors? Just being a peer reviewer if you're trying to do a scientific experiment. ;-)
 
Thanks for the info. Sounds like you've really done your homework.

A blind taste test a good idea. If two or three tasters agree, then you are probably on to something; at least as it relates to your own tap water.

We have conflicting information in print lately about water with certain chemical solids vs water with low solids, or even distilled for use in extract brewing.

Thanks for the rundown and please keep us posted.
 
I used Muntons Amber DME, packaged by Crosby and Baker. I don't know about the freshness, but I don't think this is too much of a concern with DME. It was packaged in heat sealed plastic.

You might be able to improve your beers by using distilled water. Do you know what brand of spring water you use? Some of the brands publish their information:
- Water from all over the World

The big unknown here is the mineral content of the extract. It's hard to tell if the water that we're using has too much of something if we don't know the mineral content of the extract.

Wow, thanks for that link! I use a number of bottled waters and it will be nice to have one place to go look them up.
 
Is your tap water from a well or from the city's pipes? Is it chlorinated or chloraminated if it is city water? If it is chlorinated, doesn't chlorine often lead to harsh, astringent flavors? Just being a peer reviewer if you're trying to do a scientific experiment. ;-)

My town's water is drawn from 3 deep wells (~475 feet), which draw water from sandstone type formations. The water is then softened at the treatment plants, and chlorine is added for disinfecting purposes, along with sodium silicate for a corrosion control agent, and to help keep iron from settling out in low flow areas.

My water report says the chlorine level is 0.3-0.4ppm. David Miller in "Homebrewing Guide" states that "The combination of chlorine with certain organic compounds can result in formation of chlorophenols, which cause off-flavors at less than 1 ppm (some much lower) and are known carcinogens".

It is possible that the harshness is coming from the chlorine, but I've heard that chlorine is more commonly associated with medicinal/band-aid/phenolic flavors. Some people also describe plastic tasting burps. I don't get that, but I can't say I have the evidence to rule out the chlorine. Unfortunately this experiment won't rule out chlorine either since the tap water has it and the distilled water doesn't.

I'm about a week from bottling this experiment by the way, so stay tuned.

Edit: The peer review is more than welcome. I'm trying to do the best experiment possible, so the input only helps.
 
Interesting thread. I would like to mention that many are under the impression that their local utility uses chlorine when in fact they may be using chloramine as a disinfectant. They are slightly different from each other but there are important differences to note. Here's an excerpt:

What is the difference between chlorine and chloramine?
Both disinfection agents used by water municipalities to treat drinking water, chlorine and chloramine differ slightly. The chemical chlorine, which is still the predominant choice of many water municipalities worldwide, is fed directly into the water source where it kills a host of contaminants and bacteria but produces the potentially harmful byproduct trihalomethanes or THMs.

Chloramine, which is increasing in popularity as the disinfection agent of choice for many water municipalities, is created when chlorine and ammonia are simultaneously fed into the water supply. Not as reactive as chlorine with organic material in water, chloramine does not produce harmful levels of THMs and cannot bond to skin or hair – reducing the irritating external effects of chlorine, like red, itchy eyes and dry skin and hair. In addition, chloramine is a weaker disinfectant than chlorine, but is more stable, thereby extending disinfectant benefits throughout a water utilities distribution system. Finally, since there is no chloramine gas, there are no vapors to inhale as with chlorine, making it somewhat safer in regard to chemical exposure. Unlike chlorine, however, chloramine cannot easily be filtered from water.

cheers
-Norm
 
I've recently had a couple of batches with the medicinal flavors, but I've also had a ton of other batches that turned out great, all using tap water. It will be interesting to see the results.
 
Interesting thread. I have also found that the bitterness can decrease significantly with more time in the fermenter or more time aging in the bottle. In fact, I pulled some bottles of a "bad" beer ( a beer that had an unpleasant bitterness) out to boil some brats and thought I'd have a drink. The beer had totally mellowed and is actually really good.
 
if it taste good to drink- its good to brew- RDWHAHB

It's hard to relax, not worry, and have a homebrew when I'm drinking a homebrew with a flaw like excessive astringency. This thread is intended to understand why it happened to two of my batches, and hopefully educate some extract brewers so they don't make the same mistake as me.

You are mostly correct though, for the most part if your water is good to drink, it is good to brew with. That's not true for me because I have high levels of both sodium and sulfate in my water. My water tastes good, but when combined with the wrong extract, it makes astringent beer. You just need to know what your dealing with in terms of minerals in both your water and extract you are using.
 
My well water tastes good, but it has a high iron/sulfur content. I have tried boiling my tap water & also tried filtered. My first batches were astringent?/medicinal?. I thought it was due to too high of fermentation temps. I have since gone to all RO water for my extract brews & am able to keep fermentation below 70 deg. The off flavors are not present in these batches. Now that I am able to maintain proper ferment temps, I think I will try one more filtered tap water batch.
 
I think you are on to something here jescholler. When I first started almost a year ago every batch I did had a harsh off flavor that I originally thought was chlorophenols. I tried to fix that and batch after batch had no success. Finally a couple HBT'ers offered to sample my beers, and both of them didn't think I had chlorophenols but instead they detected harsh astrinency. One of them, Saccharomyces, asked me for a copy of my water report so I sent it to him. This was his response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saccharomyces
I was right, your water is alkaline... Your water is fine for an AG brew (using 5.2 stabilizer), but for extract I would skip your water and go with 100% RO water; that will give you a less harsh hop bitterness, and will get rid of the pronounced mineral aftertaste I'm getting. For a hoppy beer you can add a tsp. of gypsum to the kettle with the RO water which will help up the sulfates and give you a crisper bitterness, but that is optional... For malty/balanced brews straight RO and extract will yield superior results every time!

I was talking with Chris Colby (BYO editor) a few months back about his method for extract/steeping grains. We were discussing your very problem which is very common -- 99% of brewers will get to the level where you are now with extract/steeping grains and think they have to go to AG to make better beer. Fact is you don't, Chris only does AG batches with a brew buddy. He has been doing extract for 20 years and he makes some GREAT beers. Here's the Colby method:

- Start with 1 gallon of Campden treated RO water and 1 tsp of 5.2 pH stabilizer in the kettle. Stir in 1 lb of dry extract while heating to 165*F. At 165*F remove from heat. Drop in the steeping grain bag, tea bag it to get the grains wet and let it sit 30 minutes. Steeping in a small volume with pH stabilizer and extract keeps the pH around 5.2 which will prevent extracting tannins from the grain husks, which is the most common off flavor in extract beers.
- Drop a strainer over the pot and move the grain bag to the strainer. Run your top-off water slowly over the grains to rinse them until you get to your desired boil volume. Stir in 1/3 of the remaining extract for a partial boil, or 2/3 if doing a full volume boil, and bring to a boil. Add your bittering hops.
- With 15 minutes left in the boil, add a whirlfloc tablet, yeast nutrient, and the rest of your extract (do this off the heat so you don't scorch of course!).
- Stir continuously while chilling until the wort drops below 140*F. Chris uses an immersion chiller in his sink and then moves to an ice bath until he gets down to pitching temp. I already gave you my method, while more hands-on it works too.

Give his method a try and I think you'll be amazed at the results.
 
Today I bottled the beers for this experiment. See my notes below.

bottling_evaluation.JPG


I was not surprised that the tap water beer was slightly astringent. It wasn't horrible, but it really took away from the experience of drinking a beer. I was very surprised to find that the distilled water was slightly tart/sour. I'm nearly 100% positive that it's not infected and that the sourness is due to a low pH. With extract beers, you most likely don't know what your water profile is like, so I think that both of these beers missed the mark in terms of water chemistry.

I hope everyone finds my results to date useful. I'm certainly learning a lot. The next step is to let these guys carbinate for four weeks and do a blind tasting with some others.
 
I suspect that the harsh, bitter after-taste in all my batches is being caused by the water as well. I tried one bottle that I found from my first batch (around 4 months ago) and the taste was very prevalent, so I'm pretty sure it's something that won't go away with time. When I brew my next batch with distilled or RO water I'll let you guys know how it turns out.
 
I've been following this thread for a while. I brewed a best extract kit from morebeer.com several weeks ago and just got around to bottling it last night. I had previously used bottled spring water but ended up with that harsh bitterness. I used RO water in this batch. I took some samples last night while bottling, and it tasted amazing... no harsh bitterness to be found. The water I was using definitely caused the bitterness in my last batches since my process didn't change.
 
I took some samples last night while bottling, and it tasted amazing... no harsh bitterness to be found. The water I was using definitely caused the bitterness in my last batches since my process didn't change.

Awesome! You don't know how good that makes me feel. Thanks for letting us know.
 
I've been following this thread for a while. I brewed a best extract kit from morebeer.com several weeks ago and just got around to bottling it last night. I had previously used bottled spring water but ended up with that harsh bitterness. I used RO water in this batch. I took some samples last night while bottling, and it tasted amazing... no harsh bitterness to be found. The water I was using definitely caused the bitterness in my last batches since my process didn't change.

Let us know how it tastes after a few weeks in the bottle. It sounds promising. In my experience with the harsh bitter aftertaste it didn't show up until after it was carbonated. I could not detect it at all at bottling.
 
I suspect that the harsh, bitter after-taste in all my batches is being caused by the water as well. I tried one bottle that I found from my first batch (around 4 months ago) and the taste was very prevalent, so I'm pretty sure it's something that won't go away with time. When I brew my next batch with distilled or RO water I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

That sounds like a pretty good idea most likely. However, this experiment is showing me that using distilled water might not be the answer either in some situations. At bottling, the distilled water batch tasted slightly tart, indicating that the pH was too low. This was probably due to a mineral imbalance. I think the best way to go when using extract is to actually get the mineral profile for the water that the extract was produced in. You can see if it has a certain mineral that is too high or too low. If so, you probably want to make sure that the water you supply makes up for it.

For example, I recently learned that for the batch that inspired this experiment, I used a particular extract that I later found out was high in sodium content. When I used my water (which is high in both sodium and sulfate), it put the bitterness over the edge and made it harsh. If I would have known that ahead of time, I might have made sure that my overall sodium and sulfate concentration were as low as I could get them.

To make a long story short, in order to be sure your beer doesn't have a surprising astringency, you need to consider the total mineral content. In order to do that, you need to know the contribution of the minerals from both the extract and the water you supply. Sounds much harder than I thought it needed to be for the extract brewer!
 
Thanks for the warning. I have a feeling it's not very easy to track down what minerals are in my DME. I'll probably try brewing with whatever local spring water they sell at the supermarket around here before I jump all the way to distilled water. Maybe it'll lower the mineral content enough to not have that aftertaste.
 
Maybe it'll lower the mineral content enough to not have that aftertaste.

I wouldn't assume that. Many spring waters pride themselves on high mineral content... I'd see if you can find the brand online and look for a water report - many of them publish the info from their source water.
 
Well I bought about 6 gallons of distilled water and I guess I'm just gonna give it a try. The spring water available locally doesn't seem ideal and I had no idea where to find the store brand water online. At least I'll know if the taste is water related. Wish me luck! I'm brewing a recipe from Papazian's book "Whitey's Gone Fishin' Pale Ale".

6lbs light DME
1oz Amarillo hops (boiling)
3/4oz French Strisselspalt (flavor)
1/2oz Sterling (aroma)
White Labs English Ale Yeast WL002
 
Let us know how it tastes after a few weeks in the bottle. It sounds promising. In my experience with the harsh bitter aftertaste it didn't show up until after it was carbonated. I could not detect it at all at bottling.


I am glad you posted that, because that is the exact same problem I am having. Before I recap my situation, according to the water chemistry calculator at brewersfriend.com my water profile is pale and very bitter. Now, for the summary of my agony:

Batch 1: Used bottled store brand spring water. Water tasted good. Irish Red Ale extract kit from morebeer.com, and English Ale yeast (substitution). Full boil. Two weeks in fermenter, then kegged and force carbonated. Don't remember taste out of fermenter, but tasted very bitter after carbonation. Even up to at least six months later, still very bitter. Had a very ugly lacing and foam on top of the beer. Dumped after six months.

Batch 2: Used carbon filtered tap water. Water tastes good. Scottish Ale extract kit from morebeer.com, and English Ale yeast (substitution). Full boil. Six weeks in fermenter, then kegged and forced carbonated. Tasted very sweet out of the fermenter, but after carbonating tasted very bitter. Months later, still very bitter. Very, very, very similar in taste and flavor to Irish Red beer from Batch #1 (almost indistinguishable). Had a very ugly lacing and foam on top of the beer. Dumped.

Batch 3: Used carbon filtered tap water. Water tastes good. All grain BM's SWMBO Slayer recipe, ingredients from Brewer's Warehouse. Added gypsum and table salt to correct chloride:sulphate ratio to malty, but at least some of it precipitated out since I added it to the strike kettle for mash and sparge, and there was definitely a white crusty residue left in the kettle after dumping the water into the mash tun. Four weeks in the fermenter, then crash cooled in a keg for a week, then transferred to another keg and carbonated. Tasted sweet out of the fermenter, but after a week of carbonation has same bitter flavor as Bath #1 and Batch #2.

Batch 4: Used carbon filtered tap water. Water tastes good. All grain Bavarian Hefeweizen recipe. Added gypsum and table salt to correct chloride:sulphate ratio to malty. This time I made the salt additions into the mash, and into the wort, so none of it precipitated out. Three weeks in the fermeter then kegged and force carbonated. Tasted very sweet out of the fermenter. I haven't tasted it after carbonation yet.

I just realized this post will have a certain level of suspense since everything is hinging on me tasting Batch #4. Although I was severely disappointed to find the bitter taste in Batch #3 I am hoping it is because I did the salt additions incorrectly. Since each batch had used different methods and timing, I am hoping the water is the only common theme (and although the first batch was bottled water, I am wondering/hoping that it has a similar mineral profile to my tap). Since Batch #4 was the only one where I correctly adjusted to water, I am really hoping that it comes out tasting great. I will taste it later tonight and report back with my findings.

Is anyone else finding that the bitterness comes only after carbonating?
 
Actually, if possible, it would be useful if people could enter their waters mineral profile into the calculator here Brewing Water Chemistry Calculator | Brewer's Friend and report back what the Sulphate : Chloride ratio, Alkalinity and SRM, and Estimated pH results are at the bottom.

It would also be useful to have this information for both non adjusted and adjusted water, and for water used in beers with and without the bitterness.

I would have to look up my adjusted water profiles at home, but I can give the results of my water out of the tap:

Sulphate : Chloride ratio highly bitter
Alkalinity and SRM pale beer (0-50 ppm Alkalinity)
Estimated pH pH = 5.84, residual alkalinity = 25.37
 
Is anyone else finding that the bitterness comes only after carbonating?

I find that it's definitely more noticeable, but I did detect it in the tap water batch of this experiment at bottling.

I noticed you are using table salt and gypsum. I would be very careful to only add a very small amount of one or the other. Table salt is sodium chloride and gypsum is calcium sulfate. If you add both of those in normal amounts, you could end up with high concentrations of both sodium and sulfate. That will give the harsh bitterness that you've been having.

I would recommend using calcium chloride to adjust the chloride to sulfate ratio if you are also using gypsum. As Palmer says "The combination of sodium with a high concentration of sulfate ions will generate a very harsh bitterness. Therefore keep at least one or the other as low as possible, preferably the sodium".
 
Back
Top