White labs wlp565 saison I

Quick question on temperature effect on wlp565 saison I, I see on white labs site it is saying optimal temp is 68-75. That being said I have read multiple posts on multiple forums and it seems that everyone ferment with this yeast at high 70 through the 90's with great results. I know saison yeast ca. Handle the heat but I was wondering what lower temps would produce for flavor and the same with fermenting at high temps. I also have read this strain is notorious for getting stuck and that low temps ( mid to high 60's) prolong the fermentation process that's why I am thi king of hooking up my brew belt but not at the cost of flavor and the finished product. Thanks for the input in advance.

Start it at a low temp and let it ride for the first two or three days. The temp will rise as it ferments then on day two or three start bumping the temp up two to three degrees a day till it above 80. Detrimental flavors occur early in the growth phase of yeast oncethat passes the is little worry specially with a Belgian yeast.

I used Wyeast's 3724 which I think is more or less the same yeast. Pitched at 68, raised 3 deg a day up to 92. It was too smooth in my opinion, I'd like more esters.
My next attempt will start at probably 75 or so and go up from there. Maybe starting right at 80 would be good. I'm too chicken to try that just yet.

You see this is what I'm talking about. White labs says optimal temp is 68-75 but, everyone seems to ferment much much higher than this optimal range. This is why I'm so confused as to where I should be and what flavors it will produce.

I'm fermenting with it right now, on day 5. 80% apparent attenuation so far, which really surprised me. I started at 80*F and wrapped the bucket with a blanket and shoved a heating pad in there, fermentation temp when I took my gravity reading was 86*F. It tasted great, so I think I'll try to ride it out at this temp and hope it finishes dry enough.

phenry said:

I'm fermenting with it right now, on day 5. 80% apparent attenuation so far, which really surprised me. I started at 80*F and wrapped the bucket with a blanket and shoved a heating pad in there, fermentation temp when I took my gravity reading was 86*F. It tasted great, so I think I'll try to ride it out at this temp and hope it finishes dry enough.

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Sweet !!! Real life expierence. So at those high temps what flavors are produced ? The airlock is kicking off a lot of bananna at 75 degrees right now and that's what I'm concerned about a bananna bomb. I don't want that.

Ps- I'm doing the saison de pipaix clone from byo which is heavily spiced ti begin with.

Aschecte said:

Sweet !!! Real life expierence. So at those high temps what flavors are produced ? The airlock is kicking off a lot of bananna at 75 degrees right now and that's what I'm concerned about a bananna bomb. I don't want that.

Ps- I'm doing the saison de pipaix clone from byo which is heavily spiced ti begin with.

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Pretty fruity and spicy, definitely not dominated by banana though. I think (keep in mind I don't do that very well) that the banana smelling esters may be one of the more volatile ones that yeast produce. Every time I've used Wy3787 my airlock always smells of ripe banana, but it never really dominates the finished product.

phenry said:

Pretty fruity and spicy, definitely not dominated by banana though. I think (keep in mind I don't do that very well) that the banana smelling esters may be one of the more volatile ones that yeast produce. Every time I've used Wy3787 my airlock always smells of ripe banana, but it never really dominates the finished product.

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When your referring to flavor are you talking about wy3787 ? I'm using white labs 565 saison I the DuPont strain for saison.

Wy3787 is Trappist high gravity

Aschecte said:

When your referring to flavor are you talking about wy3787 ? I'm using white labs 565 saison I the DuPont strain for saison.

Wy3787 is Trappist high gravity

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Yeah, I know, I was just referencing to that yeast because my airlock/blowoff container always reeks of banana in the first stages of fermenting with that strain, yet it doesn't dominate the finished beer. My Wy3724 batch (same as 565 or so everyone says) must have a leaky bucket lid, because the airlock has been completely silent since it started fermenting so I can't really relate what mine smells like.

I pitched 565 the first time I used it at 75 and let it ride on its own and ended up with a beer full of phenols and higher alcohols, you really want to let the growth phase. Complete before you push the temps any higher.

crackhead7 said:

I pitched 565 the first time I used it at 75 and let it ride on its own and ended up with a beer full of phenols and higher alcohols, you really want to let the growth phase. Complete before you push the temps any higher.

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That what I'm afraid of.... I pitched at 68 and I'm letting it free rise currently I'm at 75. Do you think I should swamp it ? I'm on day 3.5 now.

Aschecte said:

That what I'm afraid of.... I pitched at 68 and I'm letting it free rise currently I'm at 75. Do you think I should swamp it ? I'm on day 3.5 now.

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I think your fine I would just let it go

I get the best results out of 565 by chilling and pitching at 65F. I'll let it ride overnight u regulated and the next day I bump it straight to 80F. Gives it a great spicy phenolic taste/smell. I've never had the yeast crap out on me as others have, but I think it's due to keeping it at a high temp for an extended period of time.

Mpavlik22 said:

I get the best results out of 565 by chilling and pitching at 65F. I'll let it ride overnight u regulated and the next day I bump it straight to 80F. Gives it a great spicy phenolic taste/smell. I've never had the yeast crap out on me as others have, but I think it's due to keeping it at a high temp for an extended period of time.

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at that 80 degree mark are you getting bannana phenols or spicy black pepper phenols that is truely waht i am questioning as I smell alot of bannana and I'm only at 75 ..... though I am still only in the primary not in a glass so that could change once fermentation is done. ALso at those temps how long did it take to fully attenuate ?

I let it ride at 80F for almost 1.5 weeks roughly. I got full attenuation, better than reported. I got a FG of 1.006. I didn't get any banana flavors/aroma but I did get the spicy phenols I was after.

From what ive researched, Dupont ferments their saison starting at 90's and lets it fall until it hits FG.

Aschecte said:

So at those high temps what flavors are produced ? The airlock is kicking off a lot of bananna at 75 degrees right now and that's what I'm concerned about a bananna bomb. I don't want that.

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Here's my 2 cents. I used 3724 and started at 80ish. Ramped it up to about 88 over 3 days. It smelled like bananas and I thought it was going to be a stinker but instead after about a month in the high 80s it was wonderful. No banana. Lemons, oranges, faint juicy fruit bubblegum aroma, dry and spicy. As good as anything I've bought, not including the wild/funky ones.

JoeLindley said:

Here's my 2 cents. I used 3724 and started at 80ish. Ramped it up to about 88 over 3 days. It smelled like bananas and I thought it was going to be a stinker but instead after about a month in the high 80s it was wonderful. No banana. Lemons, oranges, faint juicy fruit bubblegum aroma, dry and spicy. As good as anything I've bought, not including the wild/funky ones.

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Making my first saison in a few weeks and this is what im going to ferment at. Thanks for the advice!

My first batch using this yeast has been going steady for 3 days @ 77*. I'll report back after a week to share results and gravity.

Just an update. I drew off a sample to check gravity (after 1 week). Fermentation temps started at 75 - 77 for 3 days. Then ramped up heat using a heating pad to 83 - 85 for 4 days. Gravity was down to 1.018 from 1.068. Sample tasted AMAZING!:rockin: Although still a little sweet, I could pick up some slightly spicy notes from the yeast and nice bitterness from the 3 oz. of New Zealand hallertau hops. I'm gonna keep those temps high and give it another couple of weeks before opening up fermentor again.

Here's a update on my expierence with 565. I let it ride for appx. 2 months in primary ( I know I know auto lysis ) but, it was fine and I was confident by that point it was finished and had ample time to absorb any diactyl as I've read this strain will produce diactyl and benefits from extended rest on the cake. Well she finished at 1.003 so I AA was well over 90%. I fermented starting in the mid 60's and let it rise all the way into the 80's. No hint of banana or cloves phenols. Lots of peppery spice and earthy tones. I was very happy with this strain and in the future would not hesitate to bring it into the 90's.

Well, my saison has been in primary for 2 weeks now and this is what has happened......


This yeast is a beast and chewed through a 1.068 wort down to 1.004 in only 2 weeks. This has also been the clearest beer I have ever made
And yes... the sample tasted amazing!

On the advice of a friend who works at my LHBS and just recently opened his own brewery, I'm using this strain in a 1.085 OG Golden Strong Ale next week. I'll be making a starter the day before to ramp up the number of cells I'm pitching, but I'm targeting about 15million/ml. His exact words were "don't be afraid to let this ferment hot".

I've tasted the beer that he brewed at his brewery which I'm essentially replicating and I can say that I have no worries in doing so. Ask me again in 2 weeks once it's been fermenting and I may have a different story :cross:

I plan on pitching at 75, letting it rise naturally for a few days and then wrapping it with a dog-bed heater and a blanket to raise it to about 85 or so for 2 weeks before even checking the gravity.

Here's to hoping it works out well.

I'm drinking a Saison, I did with this yeast, right now. Pitched around 70 and let it ferment (single stage) for 5 weeks at 75-77. It has a great, typical Saison flavor. Sweet, yet crisp. This was a grains/dme version. I did an all grain version of the same recipe. It's still fermenting 75-77.

FWIW, I pitch and ferment wlp565 @ 90 with the lid just sitting on top, not snapped on. I read somewhere that seeing the yeast is typically used in open fermentation, it doesn't exactly like the pressure. I do it and the beers commonly finish out in 3 days.

adrock430 said:

FWIW, I pitch and ferment wlp565 @ 90 with the lid just sitting on top, not snapped on. I read somewhere that seeing the yeast is typically used in open fermentation, it doesn't exactly like the pressure. I do it and the beers commonly finish out in 3 days.

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I remember watching a brewing tv episode where the guys did a side by side tasting of open and closed fermentation. They thought the open had a more fruity taste to it. Sounds like open fermentation at low 90's is where im doing mine.

been worried about the 565 fermentation and wanted to share my experience thus far. just checked sg an hour ago – 1.012 @ 4 days in. my first saison and first attempt with this yeast. was totally prepared to add a 1L starter of wlp001 at 75% fermentation, and was all paranoid from the 565 threads i've read. i'm on day 4 and saw the krausen dropping, so my thoughts are "i'm probably stalled at 1.030, am i gonna pitch a new yeast, or try and wait it out for a month or more?" checked the gravity and i was totally surprised to see that it got this low so fast.

i brewed the all grain (biab method) raison d'saison from brewing classic styles. recipe og is 1.060 and i was at 1.065. recipe mash temp is 147, but i mashed at 146, seldom falling into 145, but i gave the kettle heat while i stirred keeping mostly at 146. did a mash out at about 170. frothed the hell out of the wort after after chilling and shook the $*@# out of it a few times in the fermenter.

pitched the starter to the wort at ~ 72 F. put it in the swamp bath that was at ~ 66 F. let it ride overnight and kept it at ~68 F for the next day. after a day i started doing +1 F in the morning before work and +1 F in the evening. in the beginning i had to keep temps by adding ice bottles to the water, but after about 75 F i kicked on the aquarium heater to start ramping temps. it's the end of day 4 and i'm at 79 F and 1.012. krausen is minimal at this point, but there's some surface yeast and the airlock was still bubbling. i also rotated the carboy slowly once a day after the krausen started falling a bit. i just removed the airlock and point a big piece of sanitized foil over the carboy opening. not sure what that will achieve, but it sounds like airlocks are probably overused. i also poured some more bleach in the swamp bath.

was concerned about this drying out, but it seems like it's well on its way. i think i'm going to check the gravity again in another five days to see if it's changed. i'm hoping i'll reach final gravity within the next week, let it go another 4–5 days and skip a secondary, then bottle. three more weeks then summer beer in my face!

the first hydro sample tasted really nice, nice and peppery and slightly fruity.

been worried about the 565 fermentation and wanted to share my experience thus far. just checked sg an hour ago – 1.012 @ 4 days in. my first saison and first attempt with this yeast. was totally prepared to add a 1L starter of wlp001 at 75% fermentation, and was all paranoid from the 565 threads i've read. i'm on day 4 and saw the krausen dropping, so my thoughts are "i'm probably stalled at 1.030, am i gonna pitch a new yeast, or try and wait it out for a month or more?" checked the gravity and i was totally surprised to see that it got this low so fast.

i brewed the all grain (biab method) raison d'saison from brewing classic styles. recipe og is 1.060 and i was at 1.065. recipe mash temp is 147, but i mashed at 146, seldom falling into 145, but i gave the kettle heat while i stirred keeping mostly at 146. did a mash out at about 170. frothed the hell out of the wort after after chilling and shook the $*@# out of it a few times in the fermenter.

pitched the starter to the wort at ~ 72 F. put it in the swamp bath that was at ~ 66 F. let it ride overnight and kept it at ~68 F for the next day. after a day i started doing +1 F in the morning before work and +1 F in the evening. in the beginning i had to keep temps by adding ice bottles to the water, but after about 75 F i kicked on the aquarium heater to start ramping temps. it's the end of day 4 and i'm at 79 F and 1.012. krausen is minimal at this point, but there's some surface yeast and the airlock was still bubbling. i also rotated the carboy slowly once a day after the krausen started falling a bit. i just removed the airlock and point a big piece of sanitized foil over the carboy opening. not sure what that will achieve, but it sounds like airlocks are probably overused. i also poured some more bleach in the swamp bath.

was concerned about this drying out, but it seems like it's well on its way. i think i'm going to check the gravity again in another five days to see if it's changed. i'm hoping i'll reach final gravity within the next week, let it go another 4–5 days and skip a secondary, then bottle. three more weeks then summer beer in my face!

the first hydro sample tasted really nice, nice and peppery and slightly fruity.

i loved this post so much i made it twice ...

been worried about the 565 fermentation and wanted to share my experience thus far. just checked sg an hour ago – 1.012 @ 4 days in. my first saison and first attempt with this yeast. was totally prepared to add a 1L starter of wlp001 at 75% fermentation, and was all paranoid from the 565 threads i've read. i'm on day 4 and saw the krausen dropping, so my thoughts are "i'm probably stalled at 1.030, am i gonna pitch a new yeast, or try and wait it out for a month or more?" checked the gravity and i was totally surprised to see that it got this low so fast.

i brewed the all grain (biab method) raison d'saison from brewing classic styles. recipe og is 1.060 and i was at 1.065. recipe mash temp is 147, but i mashed at 146, seldom falling into 145, but i gave the kettle heat while i stirred keeping mostly at 146. did a mash out at about 170. frothed the hell out of the wort after after chilling and shook the $*@# out of it a few times in the fermenter.

pitched the starter to the wort at ~ 72 F. put it in the swamp bath that was at ~ 66 F. let it ride overnight and kept it at ~68 F for the next day. after a day i started doing +1 F in the morning before work and +1 F in the evening. in the beginning i had to keep temps by adding ice bottles to the water, but after about 75 F i kicked on the aquarium heater to start ramping temps. it's the end of day 4 and i'm at 79 F and 1.012. krausen is minimal at this point, but there's some surface yeast and the airlock was still bubbling. i also rotated the carboy slowly once a day after the krausen started falling a bit. i just removed the airlock and point a big piece of sanitized foil over the carboy opening. not sure what that will achieve, but it sounds like airlocks are probably overused. i also poured some more bleach in the swamp bath.

was concerned about this drying out, but it seems like it's well on its way. i think i'm going to check the gravity again in another five days to see if it's changed. i'm hoping i'll reach final gravity within the next week, let it go another 4–5 days and skip a secondary, then bottle. three more weeks then summer beer in my face!

the first hydro sample tasted really nice, nice and peppery and slightly fruity.

i did NOT post three times ... or even two. wtf ...

Kealia said:

On the advice of a friend who works at my LHBS and just recently opened his own brewery, I'm using this strain in a 1.085 OG Golden Strong Ale next week. I'll be making a starter the day before to ramp up the number of cells I'm pitching, but I'm targeting about 15million/ml. His exact words were "don't be afraid to let this ferment hot".

I've tasted the beer that he brewed at his brewery which I'm essentially replicating and I can say that I have no worries in doing so. Ask me again in 2 weeks once it's been fermenting and I may have a different story :cross:

I plan on pitching at 75, letting it rise naturally for a few days and then wrapping it with a dog-bed heater and a blanket to raise it to about 85 or so for 2 weeks before even checking the gravity.

Here's to hoping it works out well.

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Update:
This has been in the fermenter for exactly 2 weeks now and it's dropped from 1.085 to 1.006 (temp corrected). I pitched at 75, let it free rise for 48 hours and then jacked it up to about 85 where it's stayed since then.

It smells nice and fruity/spicy and I don't detect any hot alcohol or other off flavors/aromas as a result.

I'm going to take this off the heat now and let it drop naturally to room temp which will be about 66 for the next week before crashing it for clarity and bottling it up.

At this point, I'm pretty impressed with this yeast!

I just used this yeast last month. I made pretty standard grist(I havent use pils because of my apt stove setup and not having faith in the the ability to boil off flavor from the pils compounds)

Anyways:

50% pale 2 Row Briess brewers
23% White Wheat malt
14% table sugar
9% munich 10L
5% carapils

I hopped it with .5 oz Saaz(3%) at 60 and .5 oz of Nelson Sauvin and Sorachi Ace at 15,7,3,0 min. After seeing some comments about letting it go at normal temps for a bit and then ramping; I went with 68F for 2 days then ramped it to 85F over 2 days with a heat lamp and a blanketed bucket in a chest freezer; and let it sit there for the rest of the 3 week ferment.

Final product had a lot of lemon, pear, orange, pineapple, grape, apple with pepper, clove, and earthy yeast notes. Extremely balanced. Carbed in bottles at 2.9 vol. Nice and crisp but still flavorful. Ended at 6.4%. I will be using this strain again for sure.

IME(though a single experience), start fermentation low and finish high and you are good to go(for what I like in a saison at at least) Cheers

This my first time using WLP565 or brewing a Saison, so I'm looking for a little reassurance. I pitched at 65-ish and let free rise to about 75 for about 2 weeks. I've read that the yeast likes it warmer, so I just put it outside to finish up (temperature today a balmy 93, 85 under the porch where I have it) - but I'm still a little worried.

From what I have read it may need another 3-4 weeks at DC summer temperatures. Anyone have luck with these type of temperatures?

And yes, I have it protected form the rain.

I can assure you as I have uses 565 more times than I can count at this point you will finish out fine. The key here and I would have done it bit differently ( not better or worse ) is to leave it for about three days at free rise then 2 degrees a day over 2 weeks until I hit 90 degrees. You will hit a low fG doing this. As to putting it outside under the porch it will take more than 1 day in that heat to make a difference and remember you never want to shock the yeast going from let's say 76 to 90 in one day...... I would also be more concerned about light exposure than rain. I'm sure it will then out just fine.

Aschecte, with your vast experience using this yeast, assuming I follow your schedule of pitching at 70, free rise for 3 days, and then raise 2 degrees per day over two weeks to 90, how long should I plan to leave this in the primary? Also, is secondary necessary? My carboy is tied up so this will be in the bucket if that makes a difference. And finally, after bottling, what it minimum time and temp before drinking?

bierandbikes said:

Aschecte, with your vast experience using this yeast, assuming I follow your schedule of pitching at 70, free rise for 3 days, and then raise 2 degrees per day over two weeks to 90, how long should I plan to leave this in the primary? Also, is secondary necessary? My carboy is tied up so this will be in the bucket if that makes a difference. And finally, after bottling, what it minimum time and temp before drinking?

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Sorry for the delayed reply I have been away from the computer...re doing my house...... Ok down to the question..... if you let it free rise for the 3 days assuming a starting temp of 70 you would appx. be at 73-75 degrees with the natural rise this is also assuming a 70 degree room temp. So at 2 degrees a day you will hit 90 degrees in 7-8 days....... that is appx. 11 days to hit 90. when I say 3 weeks I mean including the 11 to get to 90 or so I have also fermented below 90 and it finish just fine but the flavor really comes out at 90 incredible. so 3 weeks is 3 weeks TOTAL not reach 90 then 3 weeks. In all reality your beer will tell you when it is done based upon your recipe...... lots of dextrins your going to finish high no mater hat the temp but if you brewed a traditional saison recipe you made a very fermentable wort so expect a low FG..... I would go based on that over a set amount of time of 3 weeks. As to the secondary no not really needed though others feel different actually with this strain I would recommend leaving it only in primary as you want to leave the beer in contact with as much viable yeast as possible to finish it out. Hope that helps a bit.

Thanks for the reply and info. Brew day is this Friday so I will get my start going soon. Very simple recipe for a traditional, highly fermentable, saison/farmhouse ale. Hoping to capture the belgian/french farmhouse character. It may be a while, but I'll try to post results once I start drinking. I plan to wash yeast at the end so I can play with the fermentation in the future.

Using the aquarium heater I have only been able to get this up to 81. I did acquire an old freezer so hopefully by the next time I do this I can actually get it up to 90!

Next question as this has been in the fermenter for about 10 days...any issues with carbing up in the bottles? Any need for a second yeast? (I have not taken a gravity reading yet, so hopefully all is well. I will check this week.)

Just checked the SG...1.008. That is over 84% attenuation! I followed the recommended fermenting schedule with pitching at around 67, let it free rise for 3 days, and then slowly ramped up to 81 (no more capacity). Aroma is subtle fruity with fruity/spicy flavor. Another week or so in the fermenter and then into the bottles for another month or so of conditioning.