Yeast immobilization: magic beans of fermentation

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your statement is correct "lowest surface area/volume" but your conclusion is opposite the statement. This means that a sphere of volume V will have the smallest surface area SA of any shape, not the largest.

For a single shape, yes. For differing numbers of shapes, no. Which is MalFets point. A bunch of spheres, even though they have the lowest SA/Volume ratio for their individual volumes, still have a lot more SA than a single shape with a higher SA/volume ratio and the same volume as the total of all the spheres.
 
Just to clarify, though, a sphere only has the lowest surface area / volume ratio for a fixed quantity of substance. 10 grams of tiny spheres will have significantly more surface area than 10 grams rolled into a snake.

Yes, but 10 grams of tiny stars will have even more surface area than 10 grams of tiny spheres ;)

Actually seems like if you had something like a coolship fermenter you could "line" the bottom with a big sheet of immobilized yeast. Not as convenient as small spheres since you'd have to find a way to store it for future brews, but it would give you lots of surface contact.
 
I'm wondering about permiablity of the wort beyond the surface- are these pouruse enough? Otherwise you end up with only the surface yeast doing any work and there could be far less yeast doing the work.

This is almost certainly an issue; not only the diffusion of sugars into the middle of the bead, but the diffusion of alcohol, CO2 byproducts out of the bead.

I'm not sure how you would account for this without some complex modeling.
 
There's a white paper on the interenet somewhere that did lab studies with different bead sizes (and yeast and the alginate beads). The smaller the beads were the better. They used an "electrostatic syringe" to create very small beads.

There is a necessary transfer of sugars into the bead, and CO2 out, that limits the speed of the fermentation. Reducing the bead size might improve this.
In normal fermentation the yeast create 'churn' that helps the yeast contact until they start to floc out. I'm finding it hard to believe this will be practical for home brewers. Now, add some glycerin so I can freeze them and maybe..... ;)
 
speaking of diffusion of sugars...

This sounds like it would be more efficient with simple sugars since the permeability of longer chain sugars would be naturally smaller.
I wonder if the wine guys are "lining up" to try this... :D
 
This might work well for commercial ethanol production - as someone mentioned passing the wort through a controlled amount of beads would be the way to go. Was also thinking wines where less of the character comes form the yeast - although higher alcohols might impact the health of the yeast negatively.

By the way, if people who are subscribing would just use the tool at the top of the page instead of replying "subbed!" I won;t get spammed with updates. Yes, it's all about me. :)
 
well I just thought that these would be useful for making ciders and stuff that you want sweet. instead of back sweetening, pasteurizing or adding lactose you can simply remove the beads once you hit the FG you want and it should stop fermenting.

would that work?
 
well I just thought that these would be useful for making ciders and stuff that you want sweet. instead of back sweetening, pasteurizing or adding lactose you can simply remove the beads once you hit the FG you want and it should stop fermenting.

would that work?

Theoretically yes assuming you prevent wild yeast/bacteria from contaminating your finished product.

Which pretty much brings you back to square one (adding sulfates or pasteurizing)...
 
For a single shape, yes. For differing numbers of shapes, no. Which is MalFets point. A bunch of spheres, even though they have the lowest SA/Volume ratio for their individual volumes, still have a lot more SA than a single shape with a higher SA/volume ratio and the same volume as the total of all the spheres.

Well yes, a 10 1gr sphere would probably be better than 1 10gram snake, in terms of surface area. but why make 1 10gr snake? make 10 1 gr snake?

BUT (and here is where the SA/V discussion doesn't matter in some ways). If I can make a 10 Units of SA in inefficent spheres in the same time as 1unit SA on efficent snakes, well I'm making little spheres, after all, my time is >>> in importance than the SA when I can up the quantity easily. And I think MalFet said that was the case.
 
well I just thought that these would be useful for making ciders and stuff that you want sweet. instead of back sweetening, pasteurizing or adding lactose you can simply remove the beads once you hit the FG you want and it should stop fermenting.

would that work?

Oooh, great idea! I ruined a couple of meads because of over-attenuation.

Maybe use one of chads stainless dry-hop gizmos for carboys. That's what I'd use when I do this.

110514d1364214825-new-dry-hoppers-glass-carboys-dryhopperglasscb.jpg
 
Just a thought - doesn't ester formation occur primarily in the reproductive phase? If the yeast can't/don't need to reproduce, that would have some consequences:
1. It would be great for a clean ale yeast (WLP001, WLP090) because precise temp control might not be as big of a factor or even a factor at all. Even when you over-pitch, you will still get some yeast reproduction if the yeast are able to. But if they physically cannot, it could mean pretty clean beer even at temperatures slightly outside the yeast's ideal range.
2. For a beer where you want esters, like a funky saison or a bananna-y belgian, it would make it tough to get the character you're looking for.

It would be interesting to see a split-batch of these, one temp controlled and one uncontrolled, to see how that affects the fermentation and the final beer.
 
The crazy shapes sound fun, but to be honest I don't think it's a practical road to go down. Anything other than a sphere will require a significantly more complicated production process. Any diameter of "snake" will be significantly harder to produce than beads of the same diameter, and the beads will have a better overall surface area for the given volume.

In general, I think you want the beads to be as small as is practical. Mine are quite small, maybe a quarter the total volume of a green pea each. If I were to find myself restricted by this size, I would probably just make more of them rather than figure out how to make them smaller.
 
This is almost certainly an issue; not only the diffusion of sugars into the middle of the bead, but the diffusion of alcohol, CO2 byproducts out of the bead.

I'm not sure how you would account for this without some complex modeling.

Calcium alginate is very permeable, and that's why it's used extensively in biotech for implants, etc. The trouble is that without some kind of agitation to drive the permeation, you're stuck with slowslow brownian motion. I suspect that's my limiting factor here.
 
well I just thought that these would be useful for making ciders and stuff that you want sweet. instead of back sweetening, pasteurizing or adding lactose you can simply remove the beads once you hit the FG you want and it should stop fermenting.

would that work?

This is a fascinating possibility, and one I hadn't really thought of since I'm not really a cider maker.

To answer your question, I have absolutely no idea. One thing I've been wondering is why yeast immobilized on the surface of the beads don't spawn off a generation of children that then go on to populate the whole liquid mass with free-range descendants. Maybe they do but not to a sufficient degree to kick off independent fermentation? This is one of the many questions I still have about this process.
 
Just a thought - doesn't ester formation occur primarily in the reproductive phase?
No, there was a post a while ago be denny covering this. Ester production requires acetyl-CoA, which is also required for cell division. So you get more when cell division is slowing than during peak fermentation. This "myth" is derived more from the fact that under-pitching tends to favour ester production, which some interpreted as cell divisions = esters. However, this 'over production' occurs largely due to the tendency towards fusel production under anaerobic stress; these fusels are later converted into esters. There are, of course, genetic differences in the yeast (largely in the expression of ester-generating and degradating) enzymes that also factor heavily into this.

In theory, you should be able to control ester production in these yeast balls the same way you would in a ferment - by controlling temperature (higher = more) & wort oxygenation (lower = more).

The slower diffusion may also act to increase ester production - under pressure (i.e. in big fermentation tanks) the fusel oil precursors leave the cells more slowly, thus increasing ester production through longer precursor contact with yeast enzymes. These beads may have a similar effect.

Bryan
 
No, there was a post a while ago be denny covering this. Ester production requires acetyl-CoA, which is also required for cell division. So you get more when cell division is slowing than during peak fermentation. This "myth" is derived more from the fact that under-pitching tends to favour ester production, which some interpreted as cell divisions = esters. However, this 'over production' occurs largely due to the tendency towards fusel production under anaerobic stress; these fusels are later converted into esters. There are, of course, genetic differences in the yeast (largely in the expression of ester-generating and degradating) enzymes that also factor heavily into this.

In theory, you should be able to control ester production in these yeast balls the same way you would in a ferment - by controlling temperature (higher = more) & wort oxygenation (lower = more).

The slower diffusion may also act to increase ester production - under pressure (i.e. in big fermentation tanks) the fusel oil precursors leave the cells more slowly, thus increasing ester production through longer precursor contact with yeast enzymes. These beads may have a similar effect.

Bryan

It's not quite a myth. The purpose of esters in metabolism is still poorly understood, but Briggs speculates that they serve as a way for yeast to regulate acetyl-CoA to free CoA ratios in the environment. This is tied in to population growth because (as you point out) acetyl-CoA is used up during lipid synthesis, which is primarily important as a constituent of cell membranes.

Esters aren't primarily produced during reproduction, but there's good reason to believe that they might be significantly impacted by it.
 
Well yes, a 10 1gr sphere would probably be better than 1 10gram snake, in terms of surface area. but why make 1 10gr snake? make 10 1 gr snake?

well if you can make 10 1 gr snake, why not cut that up into 100 1/10 g spheres? Any snake you can make, I can cut it up and get more S/A per volume than your snake. :D
 
well if you can make 10 1 gr snake, why not cut that up into 100 1/10 g spheres? Any snake you can make, I can cut it up and get more S/A per volume than your snake. :D

swell, so you keep choping up the larger size to smaller and say 'see more surface area' and yes that is true, but for a given volume a single sphere will have the lowest surface area, not the most when compared to a equal volume of another solid (my original point on that).

However given that small sphere, or even ovid or teardrops can be produced more rapidly, it is much more efficent to make more spheres (or near spheres) than it woudl be to make cubes, or pyramids. In fact a torus (aka doughnut) might have even more surface area/volume than a cube, but it would be a pain to make compared to doughnut holes ;)

And again, it isn't surface area per volume that is the real limiter in my opinion, it is surface area per time to make. I have much less time compared to the cost of ingredients that I'd rather just make more spheres.
 
swell, so you keep choping up the larger size to smaller and say 'see more surface area' and yes that is true, but for a given volume a single sphere will have the lowest surface area, not the most when compared to a equal volume of another solid (my original point on that).

However given that small sphere, or even ovid or teardrops can be produced more rapidly, it is much more efficent to make more spheres (or near spheres) than it woudl be to make cubes, or pyramids. In fact a torus (aka doughnut) might have even more surface area/volume than a cube, but it would be a pain to make compared to doughnut holes ;)

And again, it isn't surface area per volume that is the real limiter in my opinion, it is surface area per time to make. I have much less time compared to the cost of ingredients that I'd rather just make more spheres.

Considering that this is what I said originally, I think what's confusing (at least to me) is that it's not clear exactly what you're objecting to.
 
LOL at all the snake/sphere/pyramid/star/donut SA/V discussion.

Malfest is correct in that spheres are easy to make and quite consistent too.
When I get all my material, I'll "sphering" like a mofo!

Any suggestions on food coloring?
 
It's not quite a myth. The purpose of esters in metabolism is still poorly understood, but Briggs speculates that they serve as a way for yeast to regulate acetyl-CoA to free CoA ratios in the environment. This is tied in to population growth because acetyl-CoA is used up during lipid synthesis, which is primarily important as a constituent of cell membranes.
Hence why myth was in quotes. That said, I'm not sure I would buy the argument that they serve to regulate CoA:acetyl-CoA ratios, for two reasons. One, is the genes for ester production are not essential - several studies have knocked them out of yeast and seen no effect on fitness (granted, in a laboratory situation). Secondly, there are a lot of acetyl-CoA "sinks" in the cell - the idea that permeable/soluble substrate that is typically present at low levels makes any degree of difference in that system is dubious, IMO.

The 'conventional' role for many of these transferases appears to be to regulate lipid particles (an energy store) in cells; possibly via forming esters which can later be 'cannibalized' for energy production. The few kinetic studies I've seen done suggests that these enzymes work equally well in both directions (i.e. they work as well as de-esterases as they do as esterases), suggesting that ester formation in fermenters may be an 'accent' created by the unusual conditions, with 'business as usual' being the de-esterase activity of these enzymes.

Bryan
 
swell, so you keep choping up the larger size to smaller and say 'see more surface area' and yes that is true, but for a given volume a single sphere will have the lowest surface area, not the most when compared to a equal volume of another solid (my original point on that).

But the question, when dealing with a set volume of yeast, and where you're interested in maximum surface area, is not "what one shape gives me the most surface area", but rather "how can i practically maximize surface area." And in that situation, a large number of any shape (be it sphere or worm or torus or whatever else) is generally going to give you more surface area than a significantly smaller number of any shape (be it sphere or worm or torus whatever else). And given that a worm, of any type, is pretty much by definition going to be meaningfully larger than the smallest particle you can reasonably make, stringing a bunch of material together to make worms is not going to maximize your surface area.

As you mention, practicality certainly favors many small spheres over worms, and as malfet pointed out, actually creating shapes other than spheres with this method would be challenging.

And with that, I'm done. :D
 
Hence why myth was in quotes. That said, I'm not sure I would buy the argument that they serve to regulate CoA:acetyl-CoA ratios, for two reasons. One, is the genes for ester production are not essential - several studies have knocked them out of yeast and seen no effect on fitness (granted, in a laboratory situation). Secondly, there are a lot of acetyl-CoA "sinks" in the cell - the idea that permeable/soluble substrate that is typically present at low levels makes any degree of difference in that system is dubious, IMO.

The 'conventional' role for many of these transferases appears to be to regulate lipid particles (an energy store) in cells; possibly via forming esters which can later be 'cannibalized' for energy production. The few kinetic studies I've seen done suggests that these enzymes work equally well in both directions (i.e. they work as well as de-esterases as they do as esterases), suggesting that ester formation in fermenters may be an 'accent' created by the unusual conditions, with 'business as usual' being the de-esterase activity of these enzymes.

Bryan

Hmm...now I'm more confused. If you put "myth" in quotes because you don't think it's a myth, why are you saying that the myth-in-quotes isn't true?

In any case, I'm not sure I follow why gene knock-out experiments or other available acetyl-CoA sinks should undermine the notion that ester formation is related to kinds of lipid synthesis tied to reproduction. There's a world of difference between 'essential' and 'advantageous' as far as evolution is concerned. Simply put, ester production requires metabolic energy, so it's very hard to justify the idea that it does not serve a purpose.

I might be misunderstanding you. This gets above my pay grade quickly, but for exactly that reason I'm inclined to believe Briggs and Bamforth when they tell me that a yeast growth cycle is necessary for a "normal" ester profile. :mug:
 
How long does it take to harden? If it's quick -- say, about how long it takes liquid egg to cook solid in boiling water -- you could very easily make some high-surface-area shapes by drizzling the slurry in while vigorously stirring, the same way you make egg drop soup.
 
yes yeast colors
There's a good chance that food coloring will be able to permeate the "membrane", especially considering the sugars that are already able to permeate. I mean, people can go try it if they want, but it seems very likely that you will essentially be adding food coloring to your beer as well.
 
As for making the barrier more permeable, I read much of the article one poster linked and it described how it can be with chitosan. But really, what kind of person has THAT stuff just lying around their house?? :D
 
There's a good chance that food coloring will be able to permeate the "membrane", especially considering the sugars that are already able to permeate. I mean, people can go try it if they want, but it seems very likely that you will essentially be adding food coloring to your beer as well.

I've tested 2 drops of red in a 5 gallon batch of water and it is undetectable when at that strength. 2 drops make a quart red.
 
I've tested 2 drops of red in a 5 gallon batch of water and it is undetectable when at that strength. 2 drops make a quart red.

Exactly! ;)

If it's a little enough amount to not visibly color the beer, then it'd also be a little enough amount to just have the color completely diluted out of the beads inside that beer as well, rendering it pointless.
 
I love this forum. HBT rules. Thank you, MalFet, for your experimentation. You're doing a good thing for brewing science. Subscribed!
I kinda like how this MuPor MuPar? thing stirred up some dust. We may have contributed or witnessed a turning point and/or failure of home brewing science and fermentation practice for the better. Way to go gang!
Looking forward to the results!
 
Exactly! ;)

If it's a little enough amount to not visibly color the beer, then it'd also be a little enough amount to just have the color completely diluted out of the beads inside that beer as well, rendering it pointless.

I see a benefit to coloring the beads until they are dropped into the beer. At that point you won't see then in the dark wort anyway, regardless of color. Of course, if you reuse the beads they won't have their color any longer unless you add die to the sanitizing solution, which would be a possibility.
 
I see a benefit to coloring the beads until they are dropped into the beer. At that point you won't see then in the dark wort anyway, regardless of color. Of course, if you reuse the beads they won't have their color any longer unless you add die to the sanitizing solution, which would be a possibility.

It was originally posted as an idea for being able to take the bids out of the fermentor and know which is which. And if it could be done, THAT would certainly be useful.

But I'm having a bit of difficulty seeing the usefulness of coloring the beads every time before you you put them in the fermentor. To store them as a color? If you've already got them separated, doesn't it make a lot more sense to just store them that way?
 
It was originally posted as an idea for being able to take the bids out of the fermentor and know which is which. And if it could be done, it would certainly be useful. But I'm having a bit of difficulty seeing the usefulness of coloring the beads every time before you you put them in the fermentor...

Well I agree, I don't see a real benefit. Maybe just the cool factor.

I color my starsan solution so I don't get it mixed up with other cleaning fluids I have in identical containers. See this.
 
Hmm...now I'm more confused. If you put "myth" in quotes because you don't think it's a myth, why are you saying that the myth-in-quotes isn't true?
How about the 'myth' is an oversimplification of what is in actuality a very complex process involving numerous factors, of which the claimed primary driver (cell division) is at best a bit player?

Keep in mind the myth is "esters are produced during cell division". That is, plainly put, wrong; esters (the ones which create flavours) tend to be produced post-replication, when the cell is no longer using the various ester-creating biochemical pathways and acetyl-CoA for lipid synthesis. Yes, during lipid synthesis other esters are produced. But these are in the form of insoluble lipids which (yeast bite aside) generally don't impart much to the flavour of the beer.

In any case, I'm not sure I follow why gene knock-out experiments or other available acetyl-CoA sinks should undermine the notion that ester formation is related to kinds of lipid synthesis tied to reproduction. There's a world of difference between 'essential' and 'advantageous' as far as evolution is concerned. Simply put, ester production requires metabolic energy, so it's very hard to justify the idea that it does not serve a purpose.
I never said it didn't serve a purpose; rather I said that the idea that during fermentation ethanol-esters are used to provide a 'sink' (buffer, whatever) for acetyl-CoA:CoA levels is likely incorrect. Evolutionarily & biochemically that makes no sense. In contrast, what I said (and you've now repeated), fits biological expectations - i.e. the role of the ester-producing enzyme systems is one of lipid formation, and the nice (or unwanted, depending on style) side-effect of soluble (flavour) ester production is merely the outcome of placing yeast in an unnatural environment where these pathways then act in a fashion that has nothing to do with their evolutionarily-derived purpose.

But to come back to the main point, cell division is not when the flavour esters are generally produced - during cell division those enzymes are a) limited due to competition with other cellular processes for acetyl-CoA, b) expressed at low levels due to the presence of oxygen (they get upregulated in anaerobic conditions) and c) are being used to produce medium-chain lipids, not flavour compounds. Its only after the lipid-synthesis phase is complete (i.e. post-oxidative growth and/or cell divisions) that you generally see the formation of soluble esters that provide flavour to beer, due to the combined effect of more ester transferase expression, precursor availability, and acetyl-CoA availability.

This gets above my pay grade quickly, but for exactly that reason I'm inclined to believe Briggs and Bamforth when they tell me that a yeast growth cycle is necessary for a "normal" ester profile. :mug:
But now you're talking about a completely different thing. To get ester production (either to make lipids or to make flavour compounds) you need the yeast to make the precursors, which is an aerobic process. Cell division is not required - but its also hard to put yeast into an aerobic state, along with everything else they need to make precursors, without having them divide. Your bead system may be an exception to that - there is no (biochemical) reason why you shouldn't get proper ester production, and you should be able to generate precursors (without cell divisions) by exposing the yeast to aerobic conditions - i.e. by oxygenating your wort.

Its a pretty cool experiment - and may be a way to exert a level of control over the yeast that we don't normally have. Removing cell division from the equation may allow much finer control over esters/phenolic production, attenuation (as others already mentioned), etc, as most of the interventions we can make (temp, oxygenation, etc) would impact strictly on biochemical processes and not on yeast growth.

Bryan
 
@passedpawn - I debated on this, but ended up aerating both the control and the experimental batches.

@Warthaug - Interesting discussion, but this has gotten more detail-driven than is germane to this context. I'll admit that I remain skeptical about your explanations in significant part because you speak with a great deal more certainty about the role or non-role of esters than anything I've seen in the primary literature. I have no doubt that it is very complicated, and you are necessarily correct that anything said on a beer forum will be an oversimplification. But, time and again I've seen the peer-reviewed claim that yeast reproduction is necessary for a "normal" ester profile. Perhaps there are ways around that, but in the normal course of things the link that people around here establish between population growth and flavor profiles seems to be a reasonable translation from the scientific literature.

I'd love to learn that yeast immobilized in alginate (hardly my process) are an exception to this, but that seems unlikely. In fact, every technical description I've seen on alginate fermentations list as the primary downside the poor ester profile caused by the lack of yeast reproduction. If there's a way around this problem, that could salvage the technique, but so far at least it seems that the big money players at AB-InBev and SABMiller haven't yet found it.
 

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