All Novice Judging Panel?

Is it possible for a judging panel to be made up of all Novice (non-BJCP) judges? I would think a competition would require at least 1 Recognized Judge in the flight.

The reason I ask is I just got my score sheets back and am disappointed with the results for my American Stout (average 27). All the judges commented on how there were "too much hops". I had the IBUs at 60, within the style, but I can't help but wonder if they'd ever even had this type of stout and realized it's not a Guinness.

I guess what I'm saying is, for my $6 and bottling time, I at least want a real judge with constructive feedback and not a random off the street. Anyone else had lame competition experience you'd like to share?

"Too much hops" doesn't necessarily only apply to IBUs. They could mean flavor and/or aroma, too. Let's have a look at your recipe and briefly describe your process, and see if those judges were in the ballpark.

Sorry to hear about your scores, man. Never, ever worry about what someone else thinks about your homebrew as long as you brew what you want to drink.

TB

I used the following hops in a 1.062 OG, 1.011 FG 12.4 gallon (prechill) 10.8 gallon into the fermentor beer:

2 oz 13.8% Nugget @ 60
1 oz 13.8% Nugget @ 40
1 oz 13.1% Magnum @ 20
2 oz 9.1% Amarillo @5

The grain bill was based on the BCS American Stout with the addition of 2 lb flaked barley.

I just tasted a retention bottle I filled and I think the hops are not "too much". I get more dark chocolate and coffee than the citrus in the aroma and the roastyness comes through in the flavor. When I look at the judging forms they are adding comments right out of the style guideline and listing them like flaws because they don't like them. I don't think the judges really understood this style. I may be cellar blind on this one, I'll grab a few commercial examples to calibrate my palate (I love this kind of homework) and take mine to my next club meeting and get some other opinions as well.

It's funny because I got a 36 from a Certified judge on an Amber that I though was an ok beer and a 31 on an AmRye from a National judge but if I would have had to bet before the competition, I would have put my money on the stout to get a better score than everything else I entered. I guess I can't help but focus on the negative. I did get some quality constructive feedback from a National judge that I'll try to see if I can taste the same flaws as he did. (which was my purpose for entering in the first place)

I would have thought they would have had a set of the style guidelines at the table. Style 13E, American Stout:

"A hoppy, bitter, strongly roasted Foreigh Style Stout."

IBU's 35-75

2 oz 13.8% Nugget @ 60
1 oz 13.8% Nugget @ 40
1 oz 13.1% Magnum @ 20
2 oz 9.1% Amarillo @5

But, that's a ton of hops. Ran ProMash and it comes up with 84.6 IBU's per your recipe.


What software did you run? Are you BJCP Certified or trained? Not poking, just asking.

BJCP sanctioned competitions do not have to be judged by BJCP recognized judges.

Homebrew competitions are like homebrew shops. Some are good, and some are lacking. Some have great staff that know their $h!t and some have newbies trying to run the show. You have to pick and choose carefully. Never assume that just because you walk into a homebrew shop (or enter a beer competition) that the staff are experts.

Regardless, sorry to hear that you were disappointed with the scores. But did you get any valuable feedback?

Bigscience said:

Is it possible for a judging panel to be made up of all Novice (non-BJCP) judges? I would think a competition would require at least 1 Recognized Judge in the flight.

The reason I ask is I just got my score sheets back and am disappointed with the results for my American Stout (average 27). All the judges commented on how there were "too much hops". I had the IBUs at 60, within the style, but I can't help but wonder if they'd ever even had this type of stout and realized it's not a Guinness.

I guess what I'm saying is, for my $6 and bottling time, I at least want a real judge with constructive feedback and not a random off the street. Anyone else had lame competition experience you'd like to share?

Click to expand...

Do you know all three judges were novices because they indicated that on the score sheets or are you guessing because you don't like what they said? If the former, I would never enter that competition again.

As the other guy said, hoppy doesn't mean bitterness per se and I'll also point out that you don't actually know what the IBUs are. You can't except someone's perception to match what some software guestimated.

To be fair, that *is* a lot of hops. American-style hops certainly can have a fair amount of hop character, but... Speaking personally here, I'm not BGCJ certified but I think I've got a pretty decent idea of styles, I'd still want my American "stout" to be a "stout" first and foremost. Is the roastiness still upfront?

That level of hopping strikes me as potentially more reminiscent of a "Black IPA" or "Cascadian Dark Ale" (whatever you want to call it).

But, everyone's got an opinion, and there's no hard-and-fast rules on how much hopping is too much versus not enough for the style. I wouldn't assume that the judges weren't certified or didn't know what they were doing just because they though this was TOO hoppy for a stout.

The Amarillo is probably what killed you. That is a huge late addition for a stout and while I'm sure it's delicious, it probably seems out of style.

I know (have a strong guess) that they were all Novice for the following reasons:

1 of the 3 checked Novice, the others left the Qualifications section blank
None have a BJCP ID
The forms are not completed correctly
And the overall level of detail in the comments.

To truly answer the IBU question, I'm going to have a buddy test it in his lab.

As for the scores, I'm not necessarily disappointed, my other 4 beers did better than I thought they would. I did get some good feedback on one of them from a real judge. I just wish I didn't waste the time filling bottles to get the same level of comments I got from my brew partner's girl friend, "that's hoppy".

Oh, and I'm not a BJC trained/certified judge. That's pretty much the only reason, for me anyway, to enter a competition is to receive constructive feedback from qualified judges and tune my palate.

BrookdaleBrew said:

The Amarillo is probably what killed you. That is a huge late addition for a stout and while I'm sure it's delicious, it probably seems out of style.

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This is the type of feedback I would expect from a judge. "Overpowering citrus aroma and flavor dominate this beer while masking the roast. Reduce late hopping additions." That is something I can work with. Thanks.

Bigscience said:

I know (have a strong guess) that they were all Novice for the following reasons:

1 of the 3 checked Novice, the others left the Qualifications section blank
None have a BJCP ID
The forms are not completed correctly
And the overall level of detail in the comments.

To truly answer the IBU question, I'm going to have a buddy test it in his lab.

As for the scores, I'm not necessarily disappointed, my other 4 beers did better than I thought they would. I did get some good feedback on one of them from a real judge. I just wish I didn't waste the time filling bottles to get the same level of comments I got from my brew partner's girl friend, "that's hoppy".

Oh, and I'm not a BJC trained/certified judge. That's pretty much the only reason, for me anyway, to enter a competition is to receive constructive feedback from qualified judges and tune my palate.

Click to expand...

Well, you are going to get a lot of unhelpful score sheets in with the good ones, that's the way it is. If you really had no certified or higher judges I would recommend not entering that competition again and letting the organizer know why (unless you are in BFE and this is the first year the competition was held, or something like that).

I entered a small competition a couple months ago and sat across from a pair that were clearly judging some of my beers. I thought their comments were kinda weird and they were going very slow (which later amazed me as the sheets were pretty sparsely filled), one of them was BJCP national. I got my scoresheets back and they judged 4 of my beers, all scored in the 20s. One was a munich helles colored with sinamar entered as dark american lager which they called harshly roasted. One was a berliner weiss that a couple months later won sour beers in a much larger and more respected competition (hoppy halloween), one was a classic rauchbier for which the score sheets were entirely positive and then in overall comments they said it wasn't as smoky as some examples and scored it in the 20s. That won BOS at hoppy halloween. The last one was a dopplebock which was filled out of a keg and filled very high. They joked about how high the fill was for about 5 minutes before they judged it and then, surprise, claimed it had low carbonated, 20s. That got third in bocks at hoppy halloween. So yeah there are some crap judges and probably some crap score sheets from good judges. Personally I'm done with small competitions after that experience (as an entrant, I will continue to judge them as I want to be part of the solution). If you want to win lots of medals, enter the small comps. If you want good score sheets enter the biggest/best comps and try to understand that you are going to still get a few great sheets, a bunch of pretty good ones and a few crap ones. That's how it works.

And of course I'll take this opportunity to point out that the number of qualified judges is low compared to the number of people who want to enter competitions (this number has exploded in the last couple of years). I would encourage anyone interested in competitions to become a part of the BJCP. It will help your brewing substantially, help your competition success greatly, and allow you to help other brewers tremendously.

BrookdaleBrew said:

The Amarillo is probably what killed you. That is a huge late addition for a stout and while I'm sure it's delicious, it probably seems out of style.

Click to expand...

This is the type of feedback I would expect from a judge. "Overpowering citrus aroma and flavor dominate this beer while masking the roast. Reduce late hopping additions." That is something I can work with. Thanks.

remilard said:

Well, you are going to get a lot of unhelpful score sheets in with the good ones, that's the way it is. If you really had no certified or higher judges I would recommend not entering that competition again and letting the organizer know why (unless you are in BFE and this is the first year the competition was held, or something like that).

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It's not that they had no certified or higher judges for the competition, just none for the American Stout category. This really wasn't a small competition either. There were 268 entries and the competition has been in effect for years.

remilard said:

I entered a small competition a couple months ago and sat across from a pair that were clearly judging some of my beers. I thought their comments were kinda weird and they were going very slow (which later amazed me as the sheets were pretty sparsely filled), one of them was BJCP national. I got my scoresheets back and they judged 4 of my beers, all scored in the 20s. One was a munich helles colored with sinamar entered as dark american lager which they called harshly roasted. One was a berliner weiss that a couple months later won sour beers in a much larger and more respected competition (hoppy halloween), one was a classic rauchbier for which the score sheets were entirely positive and then in overall comments they said it wasn't as smoky as some examples and scored it in the 20s. That won BOS at hoppy halloween. The last one was a dopplebock which was filled out of a keg and filled very high. They joked about how high the fill was for about 5 minutes before they judged it and then, surprise, claimed it had low carbonated, 20s. That got third in bocks at hoppy halloween. So yeah there are some crap judges and probably some crap score sheets from good judges. Personally I'm done with small competitions after that experience (as an entrant, I will continue to judge them as I want to be part of the solution). If you want to win lots of medals, enter the small comps. If you want good score sheets enter the biggest/best comps and try to understand that you are going to still get a few great sheets, a bunch of pretty good ones and a few crap ones. That's how it works.

Click to expand...

I had a same experience within this competition. I'd brewed an APA that ended up more like an Amber. I went back and forth on how to enter it since it was in between but decided to do both to see how it was judged. For the APA I scored a 25 and had all kinds of flaws listed including heavily oxidized, phenolic along with a list of things to do "fix" my process (from a Recognized judge). In the Amber, I got a 37 with minor tweeks (from a National Judge). Now, maybe the bottle that the APA table got had gotten oxidized in the 1 week since it was counter pressure filled and the judging so maybe it was all those things. The funny thing was he commented on how I had HSA and needed to chill my wort faster. I'm not an HSA believer but I go above and beyond to make sure if it is real, it doesn't have a chance and I chill 12 gallons in ~18 minutes. I chalk that one up as a new judge who is just tossing around buzz words and trying to find something wrong. I wish I could see all the score sheets to see what everyone else had.

There is another comp in 4 months so I'll try to enter my AmSout again (although the hops will have mellowed) and see what the thoughts are from a different set of judges.

remilard said:

And of course I'll take this opportunity to point out that the number of qualified judges is low compared to the number of people who want to enter competitions (this number has exploded in the last couple of years). I would encourage anyone interested in competitions to become a part of the BJCP. It will help your brewing substantially, help your competition success greatly, and allow you to help other brewers tremendously.

Click to expand...

I keep thinking about studying and taking the exam but every time I look into it, all the exam spaces are filled up. Looks like some people are trying to get in the game.

There is another comp in 4 months so I'll try to enter my AmSout again (although the hops will have mellowed) and see what the thoughts are from a different set of judges.

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You will probably do much better. In fact, the same judges would probably score it higher because the hop nose will have faded. I'm not certified either, but every beer (with one exception) I've judged received scores from me that were within 2 points of a BJCP judge's evaluation. I've done fights of beers for styles I hate and just by following the style guide, been able to evaluate the beers properly.